Steel fabricator PNW?

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That I beam is very unusual. The more I think about it the more I like it. Much stronger than the typical straight keel and I bet it helps with roll as it “scoops” water as it rolls. Was the idea to rest on it’s own bottom? I see the I-beam runs to a flat oval shape. What is that?
 
That I beam is very unusual. The more I think about it the more I like it. Much stronger than the typical straight keel and I bet it helps with roll as it “scoops” water as it rolls. Was the idea to rest on it’s own bottom? I see the I-beam runs to a flat oval shape. What is that?
Maybe it was for roll reduction, or more stability, or extend the keel. I don't know. It possibly helps with the roll, but not enough. The second owner hired a NA for those modifications. I am the fourth.

The flat bottom is the end of the keel tanks, which were also added to the keel later for ballast. The boat can sit on itself, but it will tilt, if the water is completely gone. I have grounded couple times and nothing happened. I just had to wait for the tide to come back.
 
I have a couple of comments. The first is it's not clear to me what problem is being solved here. In other words, why are you doing this? (I may of missed something as my morning caffeine is still being absorbed.) The second question is have you considered using an appropriately sized steel pipe, say 12" by x' long, and filling it with lead? This would require minimum fabrication and be relatively easy to weld to the i beam. A NA's input would make sure trim, structural factors and righting moment were correct. Were it my project I would want as much assurance as possible the solution solved the problem. May you be successful!
 
I am trying to make my boat more seaworthy/safer and less rolly.
I am open to any ideas. My goal is to make things simple and if possible, do as much I can myself. Professional boatyards' labor and engineering prices are out of my reach.
I also try to avoid welding, if I can. The welders I spoke to so far want my boat on the dry for weeks or longer for a project like this. This increases the expenses significantly. Ideally, the ballast should be fabricated off site, delivered, and mounted at the shortest time possible. I cannot control the prices of metal and fabrication. I can only plan carefully and make the boatyard time as short as possible. Prices are climbing.
If you are interested, here is a link on another forum:
 
Based on your photos I would agree that adding steel plates to the side of the I beam and/or to the bottom of it will be the easiest way to add ballast to the boat. I would weld them all around so they are sealed. This would be a lot of welding but it is very basic and there is minimal fitting effort.

With that said I think the project is out over its skis right now. I would recommend start with the NA. Given the history on the first page of the linked thread there has already been modifications to this hull. You need to know if you can safely add more ballast and how much. You also need to be careful how it is placed longitudinally. The I-beam is only on part of the hull. Maybe you need more weight further aft.

Once you know how much weight and where it needs to be positioned you can start worrying about how to do it.
 
Do you have the previous NAs reports? If they indicated the center of gravity, that would sure make it easy. As mentioned above, it’s hard to guess what the correct ballast weight will be. One approach would be to weld the steel plates to the I-beam in incriments. Maybe half at first to get an idea of how it sits and feels in the water.
 
My thought on adding that much weight at the bottom of the keel would increase the tendency to snap roll. Very possible to make the ride really uncomfortable.
Toss this idea around as a possibility.
Weld a large plate to the bottom of the i beam. Like the form of a wing keel. I knew a fishing boat set up this way for softening the ride. It was a full 4x8 sheet of 3/4 plate steel.
Knock off the leading edges at the corners in a modified v shape to decrease the turbulence.
Obviously at haulout time you need to know where to set the straps so you miss the plate.
 
Based on your photos I would agree that adding steel plates to the side of the I beam and/or to the bottom of it will be the easiest way to add ballast to the boat. I would weld them all around so they are sealed. This would be a lot of welding but it is very basic and there is minimal fitting effort.
I tend to agree with your recommendations.

I will not do anything on my own. If I need a NA for this, I will hire one.
Right now, I am trying to find a shop, which has in-house engineer for works like this. Before that, I will start to hire a professional surveyor to do an incline test. Nothing can be calculated without knowing that data. I also need an up to date weight measurement of the boat.

I am not in a hurry. I will do everything step by step and nothing will be done on my own.
 
I'd not think that you'd want to add 8T of ballast without understanding its effects.
The 8T was just a rough calculation number. It can change a lot, once I have the engineers involved.
 
Weld a large plate to the bottom of the i beam. Like the form of a wing keel. I knew a fishing boat set up this way for softening the ride. It was a full 4x8 sheet of 3/4 plate steel.
I would not mind softening the ride myself, but my first priority is seaworthiness. I can secure/fasten everything inside and let the boat roll if she wants. I can handle it. I am aware of the too much ballast situation, when it can backfire. The engineer will determine this, not me.

4x8' should stick out horizontally quite a bit. Maybe narrower but several plates would be better?
 
I'd question how much adding ballast to that I-beam is going to increase stability, especially at low angles. It's not very far from the center of buoyancy. Sure at large angles of roll where the center of buoyancy and center of gravity have moved apart it'll help more, but with the ballast so high they don't move much.
 
I would not mind softening the ride myself, but my first priority is seaworthiness. I can secure/fasten everything inside and let the boat roll if she wants. I can handle it. I am aware of the too much ballast situation, when it can backfire. The engineer will determine this, not me.

4x8' should stick out horizontally quite a bit. Maybe narrower but several plates would be better?
No, the idea was a lot of horizontal surface area. Not a lot of weight.
 
No, the idea was a lot of horizontal surface area. Not a lot of weight.
I see. Was the 3/4 thickness enough for the forces?

Was there additional support for the plates, or just mounted on the I-beam?
 
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I suggest finding a NA sooner rather than later. A NA is the one qualified to assess the stability of your boat in it's current configuration. Not a surveyor or engineer. Find out what data and info the NA needs to properly perform an inclining experiment and asses your boat's stability . That simple request should take minimal time of the NA. At that point you will better know how to proceed. Or maybe not proceed.

An engineer will help you design the system to meet the NA's ballast calculations, how much mass and where. A surveyor will assess the final project for your insurance .

I will take some effort to find a NA with the interest is your project without breaking the bank.

It's clear that you have the gumption to pull this off. Be sure you get the help you need in the right order.
 
I see. Was the 3/4 thickness enough for the forces?

Was there additional support for the plates, or just mounted on the I-beam?
Yes, 3/4 handled it fine. There were some additional pieces of flat bar for bracing, but only a few per side. It’s only 24 inches poking out each side, so bracing isn’t hard.
Something like this may have a dramatic effect depending on how your boat is trimmed. If it always pulls down or lifts up it could use more fuel for the same speed.
Always pulling down would be preferable I think.
The advice to consult a naval architect is sound. Even for a seat of the pants bit of advice.
 
What does it mean?
I meant that if the plate is angled slightly downward it would pull the boat down in the water as you travel forward. Helping keep it upright as the cost of some speed and fuel efficiency.
If this seems to radical, maybe look at “bat wing” stabilizers. Very similar concept and widely used in commercial fishing boat applications.
 
I meant that if the plate is angled slightly downward it would pull the boat down in the water as you travel forward.
What do you name this for? Is the a photo of this plate on the web? I would like to search for it.
 
What do you name this for? Is the a photo of this plate on the web? I would like to search for it.
No pictures that I know of, sorry. But it’s very similar in concept to bat wing stabilization. Lots of fishing boats in Canada and Alaska use it. It can be entirely hidden under water and permanently deployed, or retractable with some of the apparatus out of the water.
Here’s some previous discussion: Batwings (stabilizers)
 
This all seems backwards and inside out. The goals are unclear, but adding ballast is the solution, yet you don't know if or how much adding ballast will address the unclear goals, so the first step is to find a cheap way to add weight outside the boat in a way that requires minimal yard time, without knowing what that will accomplish.

Start with the goals. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? Is the boat unstable, as in it's not sufficiently seaworthy? How do you know what? Or is the boat uncomfortable because it rolls a lot? Those are two very different problems with very different solutions.

Once you figure out what you are trying to accomplish, then look at solutions, costs, skills needed, etc.
 
Once you figure out what you are trying to accomplish, then look at solutions, costs, skills needed, etc.

Good advice, thank you.
Let me try to answer your points.
When I purchased the boat, I had no documentation, or any details about her. Obviously, nobody mentioned the possibility of stability issues. I had a survey, but it did not say much. It was mostly about rusty surfaces to fix.
I was sailing around, doing day trips in Puget Sound and I had no problems in my mind. I was new to the pleasure boating. Stability never came into my mind. I just accepted the boat as she was.
Few years later, more knowledgeable and experienced boaters visited my boat and brought up the stability/rolling problem, but I ignored it, because I had no plans to go out to the ocean and the roll was just part of the boat's ownership.
When I realized that I cannot do my own diving and barnacle cleaning anymore due to my age, I searched for a fresh water marina. I found one on the Columbia river and I decided to sail my boat down here. During this trip, I had very bad rolling experience. This was not necessarily a result of a messed up boat profile. Although, the blip at the stern did not take well the following swells (buoyancy?) from the NW, it is certainly possible that my seamanship was not good enough to avoid the heavy rolling behavior of the boat. I should have secured everything much better, moved weights below from the top, follow a course with less disturbance from the sea and beam, etc. I believe, my sailing experience would have been much less dramatic, if I paid more attention.
In a later discussion with experienced boaters, I was told that my boat is not safe enough for even coastal cruising. Without questioning this statement, I still do not want to give up on the boat and sell it. I love my boat as it is and I was searching for answers I did not have.
After reading other threads and talking to people, I came to the conclusion that perhaps there is a way to improve the seaworthiness of my boat. It will never be perfect. I know that. Maybe it is already modified enough to the point where there is not much can be done, without investing 1-200K into a serious upgrade, or modification? I can't tell.
Right now, I do not care about the rolling problem as much anymore. It is what it is and preparation and seamanship is the key to make it somewhat better. My present focus is to learn, if there is something can be done on a tight budget, which could improve the stability of my boat?
I received multiple ideas and there are options, for sure. What the result would be is hard to tell without doing it. Rolling chocks, bilge keels, twin keels, ballast, and more ballast, etc. Paravanes, flopper-stoppers are physically challenging at my age. A NA's involvement is almost mandatory towards this goal. I agree to that, but I still need to make a decision which way to go? This is why I started several threads to learn from other experiences and get ideas from people with broader knowledge. Some of the ideas are very elegant and certainly promising. These are also very pricey. Other ideas are more simple and easy to built, or easy to remove, if needed. If only expensive solutions are in the picture, I will not proceed, because I can't fund it. If there is a lesser 10-20K solution looks like a possible aid to the stability problem, I will go for it. If my modified boat would take me down to South, I will be satisfied.
As of now, this is what I know I have to do:
- get an incline test done
- get basic drawings and measurement of the hull, which can help a NA to determine the needed/possible ballast solution
- get the ballast designed and choose the mounting option
- get the ballast fabricated and delivered to a yard, where I will haul out the boat
- mount the ballast and test the boat
This can take couple years. Time is not an issue. If the ballast does not deliver, I can leave it on, or remove it and sell the boat down the road.
 
Was the I-beam an add on, or original to the boat? Can you elaborate on the comment about the boat not being safe for coastal cruising? Was the person that made the comment on the boat and if so, what was their experience. Also, you might have stated this already, but who built the boat and were there modifications to the original design?
 
Also, you might have stated this already, but who built the boat and were there modifications to the original design?

The original hull design was purchased from Bruce Roberts. It is a motorsailer hull. The superstructure was modified to a PH motorsailer, by another designer.
Once the plan was obtained, it was built/welded together by the first owner. He could not finish it and sold the hull with machinery to the second owner, who finished the construction. At the end, the boat become top heavy and squatted due to the heavier engine installation (CAT 3306 220HP) + large superstructure.
A NA was hired, and modifications were made.
First; bilge filled with lead ingots from amidship to the bow.
Next, keel tanks were added both sides (245 g/each) of the hull and I-beam at the bottom for hull extending. (original draft was 5.6 feet, it is 7.4 feet now)
Next, ballast weight was mounted onto the I-beam forward section, both sides. (no idea how much?)
Finally, an air-tank (blip) was added to the stern, to lift it up and reduce squatting.

The boat was built with two side tanks originally (400 g/each) and a Perkins generator. TwinDisk transmission gear, just to mention the heavy items. Total added ballast from the latest survey shows 5-6000 lbs added weight. This is what it is now.
 
That is a substantial draft change. I would be extremely hesitant to add more ballast. You didn’t answer the question about the boat not being safe. The boat hull was designed as a motor sailor. A form of stability that hasn’t been mentioned would be adding a mast for counter stability.
 
Can you elaborate on the comment about the boat not being safe for coastal cruising? Was the person that made the comment on the boat and if so, what was their experience.
No, there was only me during the trip to the Columbia river. It was very uncomfortable, but not scary. NW winds, following seas, steady swells from NW. The section of the trip I was concerned a bit was when I left Port Townsend in the morning and the tide was going against the winds. For few hours I had to fight the high pitch and very frequent sharp/steep waves. Slowly, but I sliced through. I think the bow handled it well.

The comments about seaworthiness were made based on a short trip in calm waters in Puget Sound. Those were friendly comments/opinions with good intentions. No expert were on board, no NA was involved.
 
A form of stability that hasn’t been mentioned would be adding a mast for counter stability.
It has a mast, but not for sail.
 

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For some perspective: just outside of Port Townsend is a notorious stretch of water on a shelf that’s 90 feet deep. When I was new to boating, in my Krogen Manatee, I left PT on an outgoing tide with the previous night’s 50 knot wind waves (against the tide). After 2-3 hours of ungodly conditions, which included watching a boat sink and coast guard rescue, I had to turn around and go on the inside of Whidbey Island. I would not judge your boat if that was the same location. I would have someone with a lot of experience (professional captain) go out on your boat to judge the stability before proceeding with any modifications.
 
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