Stabilization?

[tiltrider1]

Depends on how rough it gets.

Or how many super yachts wake you in a day.

 

[Uisce Beo]

The biggest advantage for me is that the system does not require any maintenance

That is a huge advantage. No maintenance at all? There are some moving parts that are in the water. I would have thought there would be some lubrication/seals that need attention.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

A dedicated inverter (3000 watt) was added solely for powering the rotors.

I get that it's all about preference and tolerance, and my question is about the impact of stabilization at anchor. I know what it's like to anchor in a rolly anchorage or be waked over and over. No fun. Is stabilization at anchor so dramatic that I might sleep through those wake events or the rolling of off angle swell?

And how many watts or amp hours does an effective at anchor stabilizer system draw? I had always assumed that would mean running a generator all night.

 

[Mambo42]

That is a huge advantage. No maintenance at all? There are some moving parts that are in the water. I would have thought there would be some lubrication/seals that need attention.

Spoke with DMS on the fair and when they say it does not require maintenance (the original Magnus motor) then who am I to doubt that ? Apparently they worked it out in a way that nothing needs to be changed.
My own stabilizers, CMC stab 25, don't need a lot of maintenance either, just change 2 seals in each motor every 5000 hours, but when you are dealing with a company that wants 15.000 euro to change those seals........you know you are better off without maintenance.

 

[Mambo42]

I get that it's all about preference and tolerance, and my question is about the impact of stabilization at anchor. I know what it's like to anchor in a rolly anchorage or be waked over and over. No fun. Is stabilization at anchor so dramatic that I might sleep through those wake events or the rolling of off angle swell?

And how many watts or amp hours does an effective at anchor stabilizer system draw? I had always assumed that would mean running a generator all night.

We used to roll heavily while at anchor or even in the port / marina. That was one of the reasons why I wanted stabilization while at anchor and we now have it. To put it simple, the boat does not roll anymore while on anchor. It will move perhaps one or two degrees, but that is about it.
When there is a storm in the anchorage it is a stable platform where you don't need to be afraid of being thrown around. If there is a big wake passing through the anchorage we may catch the first wave for a bit, but then the stabilizers instantly react and the bigger the wake the more aggressive the motors will kick in.
As for the electricity usage while at anchor it completely depends on what settings I have chosen. I can set it to 'anchor' and then set the sensitivity from minimal to maximum.
However, I can also set it to 'anchor' and 'dock' mode, which reduces the deflection of the fins (won't go outside the width of the boat, so perfect for use in a marina or at the dock), which also reduces the effectiveness and electricity usage. But even then I can set the sensitivity from minimum to maximum.
And lastly I can set it to 'anchor' and 'night' mode plus the sensitivity again. That is the mode I use at night and in a normal anchorage the draw is next to nothing.
If there is no wind, I can turn the fins 180 degrees around, which results in the boat 'swimming' away from the anchor, so no chance of going over the anchor and wrapping the chain around the fins.

With all my boat systems running, plus fridges, freezers, lights etc plus the stabilizers I get to about 15 - 20 Amps per hour at 24 V. I have 1400 Ah of 24 V LiFePO4 onboard so getting through the night is absolutely no problem.
Reason for this low draw is that the stabilizers are basically standby, but not active until necessary. Small disturbances will result in small deflections (thus a very low draw) and the moment the disturbance is gone the fins go idle again with no draw.
Obviously when the sea is rough the draw will become more, but usually 300 - 400 W at 220 V (1.5 - 2 A) or 15 to 20 Amps for the stabilizers alone. Still no problem to run that off the batteries, so I never need the generator to run the stabilizers at night (or during daytime, since the solar panels will power the whole boat).

As a result we sleep very comfortable, never run the risk to get thrown out of bed, no risk of being slammed into a door or side of the boat when a wave would hit us. Prior to the stabilizers we have been in storms in anchorages and sleeping was simply impossible. The admiral and the dogs would get sea sick, hang over the railing and I would spend all night (or day) paying attention to the boat. Those days are over, last few storms I just let the admiral sleep, boat was safe, I kept the watch, dogs were happy. And a happy crew makes a happy boat.

 

[KMAL]

I get that it's all about preference and tolerance, and my question is about the impact of stabilization at anchor. I know what it's like to anchor in a rolly anchorage or be waked over and over. No fun. Is stabilization at anchor so dramatic that I might sleep through those wake events or the rolling of off angle swell?

And how many watts or amp hours does an effective at anchor stabilizer system draw? I had always assumed that would mean running a generator all night.

If anchorage stabilization is a priority - the DMS system might not be for you. It is a system that is very effective underway and at slow speeds. I expect that the DMS system's controller will be adapted to have some effect while at anchorage (as have some other competing systems that use the same tech) - but, the most effective system for dock and anchorage, IMO, would be a Gyro. At anchorage this would require a generator for power - dockside, I suspect you could take advantage of shore power. You might also consider some of the active fin solutions - some of which can be powered via your batteries.

 

[rslifkin]

Personally, my preference is for passive stabilization at anchor because it doesn't require power. Ideally something like fins or Magnus rotors for use underway, but a set of flopper stoppers for use at anchor (even if the other solution can provide zero-speed stabilization).

 

[KMAL]

Spoke with DMS on the fair and when they say it does not require maintenance (the original Magnus motor) then who am I to doubt that ? Apparently they worked it out in a way that nothing needs to be changed.
My own stabilizers, CMC stab 25, don't need a lot of maintenance either, just change 2 seals in each motor every 5000 hours, but when you are dealing with a company that wants 15.000 euro to change those seals........you know you are better off without maintenance.

Yes DMS says no maintenance. I looked at the system closely before choosing it for my build - I am not an engineer - but could not find parts that would be subject unusual wear and tear - it is a very simply system robustly built. Of course - it is a elctric/mechanical system and you will eventually need to repair/replace components. Given its design - very easy to remove the unit from the hull for any required work. Will it be free of cost - no - will I need to worry about it as I would maintenance on main, genes, watermaker, etc. - no. I will need to clean the rotor on haul outs and coat as I would the hull bottom.

 

[KMAL]

Personally, my preference is for passive stabilization at anchor because it doesn't require power. Ideally something like fins or Magnus rotors for use underway, but a set of flopper stoppers for use at anchor (even if the other solution can provide zero-speed stabilization).

I like this - can you use flopper stoppers without dedicated rigging?

 

[rslifkin]

I like this - can you use flopper stoppers without dedicated rigging?

For use at anchor they can be just hung from the spring cleats, although building a setup to pole them out increases effectiveness. The rigging doesn't have to be quite as extreme as you'd use for paravanes for underway stabilization though.

 

[KMAL]

For use at anchor they can be just hung from the spring cleats, although building a setup to pole them out increases effectiveness. The rigging doesn't have to be quite as extreme as you'd use for paravanes for underway stabilization though.

Thanks!

 

[Ric]

We were one of the first two Helmsman trawlers to have DMS stabilization installed on delivery. We have an H38S and went with a single rotor system. It saw heavy use twice last summer when crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca in unexpectedly lousy weather (25kt wind, beam seas, wind vs tide). Each time it kept the roll below 10 degrees, which was very satisfactory under the circumstances. We didn't need to run the generator as the alternator kept up with the power requirements. The only cautionary note would be that although the system doesn't take up much space and power, which makes it viable as compared to a gyro system, it weighs 700#. So wherever it goes, it will have an impact on your trim that will need to be factored in.

 

[KMAL]

We were one of the first two Helmsman trawlers to have DMS stabilization installed on delivery. We have an H38S and went with a single rotor system. It saw heavy use twice last summer when crossing the Strait of Juan de Fuca in unexpectedly lousy weather (25kt wind, beam seas, wind vs tide). Each time it kept the roll below 10 degrees, which was very satisfactory under the circumstances. We didn't need to run the generator as the alternator kept up with the power requirements. The only cautionary note would be that although the system doesn't take up much space and power, which makes it viable as compared to a gyro system, it weighs 700#. So wherever it goes, it will have an impact on your trim that will need to be factored in.

Good to know - that is a fair amount of weight. Did Helmsman help you anticipate trim changes with equipment placement in advance? Would you have done anything different in hindsight?

 

[NSM]

Good to know - that is a fair amount of weight. Did Helmsman help you anticipate trim changes with equipment placement in advance? Would you have done anything different in hindsight?

Wouldn’t change anything after adding a second panel to fly bridge. Helmsman offset the weight a bit by moving the davit. The rest I do with fuel tanks.

 

[chanprr]

Wouldn’t change anything after adding a second panel to fly bridge. Helmsman offset the weight a bit by moving the davit. The rest I do with fuel tanks.

For the H46 water test at the factory, the stern was loaded with additional weight to simulate the dual rotors. Today in Seattle the MM system is being programmed and calibrated by DMS-Helmsman. When we finally are on our way to Port Ludlow early next week, there will be an opportunity to test the system in the Puget Sound.

 

[KMAL]

Wouldn’t change anything after adding a second panel to fly bridge. Helmsman offset the weight a bit by moving the davit. The rest I do with fuel tanks.

Thanks - our boat will be configured almost identically to yours. Funny in that I had asked Helmsman why you had the davit starboard as it seemed most were installed port - I was told that they did not know why... "And now for the rest of the story" - could you elaborate on what you mean by a second panel to the bridge?

 

[KMAL]

For the H46 water test at the factory, the stern was loaded with additional weight to simulate the dual rotors. Today in Seattle the MM system is being programmed and calibrated by DMS-Helmsman. When we finally are on our way to Port Ludlow early next week, there will be an opportunity to test the system in the Puget Sound.

Do they water test all of their boats prior to shipping or was this done because you were a new model?

 

[NSM]

Kevin, I initially only had the control panel in the pilothouse. But I spent so much time on the flybridge last summer that I also had a second panel installed up there.

 

[KMAL]

Kevin, I initially only had the control panel in the pilothouse. But I spent so much time on the flybridge last summer that I also had a second panel installed up there.

Thanks Scott - growing more excited by the day - I believe we are still on for an April completion - if so, hope to be on the water by July.

 

[chanprr]

Do they water test all of their boats prior to shipping or was this done because you were a new model?

It was done because it was a new model. Next time I see Scott H I'll ask him if all new boats are water tested.
By the way, the twin rotor settings were completed today, and rotors operated while at the docks. Next are the on-water trials in Lake Union in a couple of days.

 

[amxr39]

Wow, is it really that profound? We don’t have stabilization and rolly anchorages and beam seas suck. I’ve decided to live with it, but if it’s really that effective, well…

Not all stabilizers work at anchor. I believe the Magnus does not, but I could be wrong.

 

[chanprr]

Not all stabilizers work at anchor. I believe the Magnus does not, but I could be wrong.

I've heard that DMS is working on having the rotors work while at anchor.

 

[KMAL]

I've heard that DMS is working on having the rotors work while at anchor.

I have heard the same - one of their primary competitors functions at anchor - however, at reduced effectiveness. Essentiontly the rotor waves back and forth between its docked position and 45% in order to induce the effect. I would imagine that this “function” can be programmed into the controller - but pure speculation on my part other than the fact that at least one other rotor system is doing it. Following is a link to a rotor system that claims to work at anchor: RotorSwing 140 Multi ZeroSpeed - RotorSwing Holland

 

[Greg QS]

I've heard/read you lose a very small amount of speed when running with them deployed. Seems like a pretty good tradeoff considering there are no hydraulics, they don't draw much power and require little maintenance. But again, that's just from what I've read, no 1st hand knowledge.

I am a gyro guy. I am installing a Quick gyro right now. search Quick Gyro

I am Not directly familiar with Helmsman boats. All boats rock in the right conditions. I have experience with gyros and fins. I currently have fins with no at rest stabilization. I am adding the gyro as a 0 speed and second system or backup.

Fins or protrusions consider
1 hole in a boat there will be seal maintenances.
2 strike damage. ( last year I had a cracked fin requiring new glassing.)
3 speed reduction ( anything hanging in the water causes drag.)
4 interior maintenance, I have hydraulics, Pretty low but I still have oil , filters, and pumps that all require some attention.
5 No spool up time turn on and stabilize
6 anything rotating or moving has some sort of maintenance to it.
7 anything protruding needs antifouling and antifouling maintenance.

Gyros
1 no strike concerns, not speed loss.
2 Maintenance of the unit. Seakeepers have zincs , cooling pumps, hydraulic dampeners. All needing attention . My seakeeper had a yearly service rate of 900 by a certified person. I chose a Quick this time. more for installation cost, no water cooling, Maintenance that can be done by an owner.
3 Gyros consume more power so available power must be considered.
4 spin up time . Gyros time to spool up . 30-45 min in my experience.
5 Seakeepers must be run all the time underway . At a minimal setting as to not damage the bearings. Quicks do not need to be ran while underway unless needed. This is another reason for my selection.


My feelings.
I have found with my vessel that I want stabilization when moving all the time. I curse in Ny, the rivers and LI sound. I am Bahama bound too. There is a lot of big boat traffic. A lot of stuff you just cannot get away from. So ,I have my fins on when ever moving. It costs nothing to run since mine run off the main engines. So gensets can be shut down. Up in the sound I have found fully protected anchorages are not always available for my size boat. The the need for 0 speed stabilization. This also opens up where I can go since I will be able to pretty much anchor where ever I want. Newport RI, Martha's vineyard, LI sound North shore, do not really have full protected anchorages. Most are quite rocky at a certain wind direction.

Anchoring ,in my case anyway, at 70000lbs , is very stable in a protected anchorage. Barely rocks by boat wakes. Really need a big one to make any rock and has to hit the boat full parallel to rock. If I am in stormy conditions, or a rocky anchorage, I will know a head of time. These times I will fire up the genset and turn on the gyro. The gyro in my case will be a back up to the fin system , or supplementary , for under way use.

If you are seriously cursing, going to anchorages, passage making, and spending time on a boat you need stabilization. You will get caught in it. So what ever system you go with get 0 speed stabilization. Consider the yearly maintenance costs, availability of parts, and your ability to power the system.

Once you have stabilization you will never go back.

 

[KMAL]

I am a gyro guy. I am installing a Quick gyro right now. search Quick Gyro

I am Not directly familiar with Helmsman boats. All boats rock in the right conditions. I have experience with gyros and fins. I currently have fins with no at rest stabilization. I am adding the gyro as a 0 speed and second system or backup.

Fins or protrusions consider
1 hole in a boat there will be seal maintenances.
2 strike damage. ( last year I had a cracked fin requiring new glassing.)
3 speed reduction ( anything hanging in the water causes drag.)
4 interior maintenance, I have hydraulics, Pretty low but I still have oil , filters, and pumps that all require some attention.
5 No spool up time turn on and stabilize
6 anything rotating or moving has some sort of maintenance to it.
7 anything protruding needs antifouling and antifouling maintenance.

Gyros
1 no strike concerns, not speed loss.
2 Maintenance of the unit. Seakeepers have zincs , cooling pumps, hydraulic dampeners. All needing attention . My seakeeper had a yearly service rate of 900 by a certified person. I chose a Quick this time. more for installation cost, no water cooling, Maintenance that can be done by an owner.
3 Gyros consume more power so available power must be considered.
4 spin up time . Gyros time to spool up . 30-45 min in my experience.
5 Seakeepers must be run all the time underway . At a minimal setting as to not damage the bearings. Quicks do not need to be ran while underway unless needed. This is another reason for my selection.


My feelings.
I have found with my vessel that I want stabilization when moving all the time. I curse in Ny, the rivers and LI sound. I am Bahama bound too. There is a lot of big boat traffic. A lot of stuff you just cannot get away from. So ,I have my fins on when ever moving. It costs nothing to run since mine run off the main engines. So gensets can be shut down. Up in the sound I have found fully protected anchorages are not always available for my size boat. The the need for 0 speed stabilization. This also opens up where I can go since I will be able to pretty much anchor where ever I want. Newport RI, Martha's vineyard, LI sound North shore, do not really have full protected anchorages. Most are quite rocky at a certain wind direction.

Anchoring ,in my case anyway, at 70000lbs , is very stable in a protected anchorage. Barely rocks by boat wakes. Really need a big one to make any rock and has to hit the boat full parallel to rock. If I am in stormy conditions, or a rocky anchorage, I will know a head of time. These times I will fire up the genset and turn on the gyro. The gyro in my case will be a back up to the fin system , or supplementary , for under way use.

If you are seriously cursing, going to anchorages, passage making, and spending time on a boat you need stabilization. You will get caught in it. So what ever system you go with get 0 speed stabilization. Consider the yearly maintenance costs, availability of parts, and your ability to power the system.

Once you have stabilization you will never go back.

Interesting advantages over other Gyro systems:

 

[Pprior]

Wonder how much one of those costs in real life for a 45-50 foot boat after you have to reinforce the stringers etc to shed the immense loads. I've heard horror stories of maintenance costs for the water cooled gyros every 1000 hours. Would really love to hear more from actual world use. The magnus looks great but if I'm investing in stabilization I definitely want it to work at anchor or even at dock. Electric fins seem best overall to me.

 

[Greg QS]

Quick gyro for 45-50' boat 55ish for the part and 20k +or- for install

 

[chanprr]

Do they water test all of their boats prior to shipping or was this done because you were a new model?

Scott H said that for the proven designs (like the H38E) no water test is done prior to shipping, but all engines are.

 

[KMAL]

Scott H said that for the proven designs (like the H38E) no water test is done prior to shipping, but all engines are.

Thanks - sounds right - I guess the offloading from the ship is a “water test”

 

[Ric]

Good to know - that is a fair amount of weight. Did Helmsman help you anticipate trim changes with equipment placement in advance? Would you have done anything different in hindsight?

It was the first installation on an H38S, and only the second H38S. In hindsight I would either have put the system forward of the fuel tank rather than aft, since the generator is aft as well, or not opted for the generator. I thought a generator would be needed for the DMS, but that was not the case in practice. That being said, we juggled things around to compensate and the genset has been useful for the watermaker, among other things.