Stability at anchor on 50+ ft trawlers

[Tate]

So times have changed and I'm back in the market for a boat (soon). My eye has turned towards 50-60ft Nordhavn, Selene, KK, etc types. I want something with a long range and that can operate for weeks or even months off grid. (My background is a sailboat sailor and I've spent many years in the Caribe in far off places avoiding marinas and exploring quiet places.) I want to go far again but this time I'm wanting a trawler.

Now my question, coming from ignorance, is how comfortable are these trawlers at anchor? I know the smaller vessels often deploy flopper stoppers, however, I don't see this often on the bigger boats. I'm assuming that at some point the anchor stabilization system just gets too big and cumbersome? How do people in say a Selene 60 handle a rolly anchorage? Is the size and stability of the boat just "good"? Do they run a generator the whole time and keep stabilizers on?

Some background - Last boat was a 44ft long 25ft wide sailing catamaran. Most anchorages were comfortable and no problem on that platform. I'm worried going to a trawler will make my partner seas sick at anchor and we tend to spend MOST of our time on the boat in anchorages.

Curious to hear thoughts on this.

 

[tiltrider1]

I stay away from rolling anchorages.

The bigger and heavier a boat is the more energy it takes to move the boat. Unfortunately, every one’s definition of too much movement is different.

My stabilizers won’t work unless the boat is actually moving but in my world it’s a rare day when wave action makes anchoring uncomfortable.

 

[Xlantic]

My flopper-stoppers are quite effective in rolly anchorages. They are 100cm x 35cm deployed on 4m booms. They each take a couple of minutes to deploy or retrieve.

Based on my un-scientific observations, boat size has only limited impact on how much the boat rolls at anchor. I have observed larger boats rolling as much as smaller ones. I suspect it has to do with how close the period of the swells and the natural frequency of the boat are.

 

[DavidM]

In 500 nights at anchor, I suspect I only had 5 that were uncomfortable and only one of those was bad enough to keep me up most of the night. This was on the east coast of the US from Fl to Maine and in the Abacos.

With those slim odds I wouldn’t bother investing the money in something to dampen rolly anchorages.

But if you are going to install some sort of stabilization system anyway, I would give a small plus to a gyro system that also can work at anchor. But I would only run it when I needed it, roughly 1% of the nights at anchor given the experience above.

David

 

[redline]

My general understanding is that it depends on the stabilization type. Traditional hydraulic fin stabilizers work at speed when there is water flow over the surfaces, but not at anchor. However, there are new types of stabilization on the market, referred to as "zero speed stabilization" and are largely electric systems. (HUMPHREE | Innovation to the boat industry) . Then of course there are gyro systems like Seakeeper (Seakeeper | Eliminate Boat Roll and Pitch). With electric stabilization you will likely need to re-think power management on the boat as well.

 

[Mac2]

Don’t forget to look at the location and orientation of the bed you will be in. Low and port to starboard is best at anchor.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I think a good rule of thumb would be that any anchorage that would be uncomfortable in a monohull sailboat would also be uncomfortable in a Monohull trawler. Flopper stoppers can help a lot, but it is a pretty large project to install them if they don't come with the boat. I had a boat with them and they were also a little noisy. They clunk, and creak when they load and unload non stop. It was better than rocking around more without them, but annoying, especially at night.
My current trawler is a ballasted full keel hull with a draft of 6'-6" and it is a lot less sloppy at anchor than my old, much lighter Aluminum trawler. Both would be miserable though in a really rough anchorage.

I think I remember MV star had some good blog posts about dialing in his flopper stoppers on a large trawler.

Home - MV Starr

mvstarr.com

 

[Snapdragon III]

Don’t forget to look at the location and orientation of the bed you will be in. Low and port to starboard is best at anchor.

That is a great point. I was shocked at how much easier it is to sleep in rough weather when your bed is Port to Starboard. Better underway, and at anchor.

 

[guy with a boat]

We also have hundreds of nights on anchor and very few that were rough enough to be a problem. Some of that is taking the trouble to select sheltered anchorages whenever possible.
Having a stout boat, especially one with a displacement hull, often results in any motion being slower and quieter than a lighter planing hull.
We have flopper stoppers which are pretty effective at anchor. I’ve had them deployed maybe 5 nights in 6 years, because they weren’t necessary for us to be comfortable. They are a good concept and probably worthwhile if you spend a lot of time in places without protected anchorages. Beyond that, don’t worry about it IMO.
We do have fin stabilizers for underway and consider them one of mankind’s greatest inventions.

 

[BruceK]

Don’t forget to look at the location and orientation of the bed you will be in. Low and port to starboard is best at anchor.

Athwart is another descriptor.

 

[Tate]

I don't know if I suck at picking anchorages, just sail in places where it is tough, or maybe I'm more sensitive than most of you. I have over 1000 nights at anchor (from 10 years of liveaboard cruising), in both a monohull and a catamaran. My memories of the monohull include often getting waked, getting rocked in bad weather even in protected waters, and some really bad times with swell that wraps around a headland.

The catamaran made life a lot more comfortable from that perspective. A huge wake from a passing boat no longer woke us up or knocked things off counters. Swell could be bad but wasn't that bad.

Maybe my memories are inaccurate or maybe I just wasn't as experienced back then. I just don't want to spend a million bucks on a boat and then decide it sucks at anchor compared to our much cheaper sailing catamaran.

I'm not opposed to installing a flopper stopper, I just don't know how troublesome it is when you're talking a 60ft boat or if it is worth it.

 

[rslifkin]

Wakes are a big issue in some anchorages. We use some fairly crude flopper stoppers (working on building better ones) hung from the spring cleats. They aren't a magic bullet, but they do make the motion more comfortable (I expect my new setup will be able to reduce the rolling more). Realistically, in most places we anchor they get more of a workout during the day than at night. Sleeping isn't usually the issue, it's not being miserable from endless wakes during the day in some places.

 

[Snapdragon III]

I think it is virtually guaranteed that any monohull will suck compared your old catamaran in this regard.

It depends a ton on where you are using the boat. In the Pacific NW we have endless 100% protected anchorages, and this is rarely a problem. If you have traveled in the areas you intend to use the new boat go with your own experience, and not that of people in other areas as to how rough the anchorages might be.

 

[mvweebles]

I don't know if I suck at picking anchorages, just sail in places where it is tough, or maybe I'm more sensitive than most of you. I have over 1000 nights at anchor (from 10 years of liveaboard cruising), in both a monohull and a catamaran. My memories of the monohull include often getting waked, getting rocked in bad weather even in protected waters, and some really bad times with swell that wraps around a headland.

The catamaran made life a lot more comfortable from that perspective. A huge wake from a passing boat no longer woke us up or knocked things off counters. Swell could be bad but wasn't that bad.

Maybe my memories are inaccurate or maybe I just wasn't as experienced back then. I just don't want to spend a million bucks on a boat and then decide it sucks at anchor compared to our much cheaper sailing catamaran.

I'm not opposed to installing a flopper stopper, I just don't know how troublesome it is when you're talking a 60ft boat or if it is worth it.

Rolly anchorages are a problem along the Pacific coast. Anchorages are often open roadsteada and exposed to swell. At night, winds die down and there is nothing to keep you pointed into them so the action becomes quite lively - all is fine until 10pm when all hell breaks loose. Solution is either flopper stoppers or set a stern anchor which isn't always practical.

Bigger boats can ride through minor swells better than small ones but they also tend to have more stuff laying around to launch. The flopper stopper gear needs to be larger and can be a bit more unwieldy to deploy and retrieve.

Sounds like the OP has spent much of his cruising time in exposed anchorages. Many people are not exposed to that type of boating. You'll need something to be comfortable.

Peter

 

[Mambo42]

I have electric fins on my boat (CMC Stab 25) and am fully stabilized underway, at anchor and even in the dock. Whether or not you want stabilization depends on how much roll your boat has while being at anchor. My boat had a violent roll while at anchor or in the marina when fuel levels were medium to low. If you have been in the Caribbean you will know that, as long as you stay on the lee side of the islands the seas will be calm. However, when you are underway the seas can be (and will be quite heavy). If you plan to be a bit in the open sea on anchor it can be quite interesting too.
Good part of electric fins is that if you plan to go back to the Caribbean you will have lots of sun, so with a few solar panels and a large battery pack you won't need a generator to run your stabilizers. Electric fins (at least mine) don't use a lot of electricity.

 

[klee wyck]

I don't know if I suck at picking anchorages, just sail in places where it is tough, or maybe I'm more sensitive than most of you. I have over 1000 nights at anchor (from 10 years of liveaboard cruising), in both a monohull and a catamaran. My memories of the monohull include often getting waked, getting rocked in bad weather even in protected waters, and some really bad times with swell that wraps around a headland.

The catamaran made life a lot more comfortable from that perspective. A huge wake from a passing boat no longer woke us up or knocked things off counters. Swell could be bad but wasn't that bad.

Maybe my memories are inaccurate or maybe I just wasn't as experienced back then. I just don't want to spend a million bucks on a boat and then decide it sucks at anchor compared to our much cheaper sailing catamaran.

I'm not opposed to installing a flopper stopper, I just don't know how troublesome it is when you're talking a 60ft boat or if it is worth it.

Sounds to me like a trawler(power) cat could be your answer, both underway and at anchor. I agree with you regarding comfort at anchor on the cat.

 

[Tate]

Sounds to me like a trawler(power) cat could be your answer, both underway and at anchor. I agree with you regarding comfort at anchor on the cat.

I've looked into the power cats and they're not quite what I need for my own goals. For one thing, I don't see any of them capable of >1000nm range. They just don't seem to carry that sort of tankage (probably due to weight). I appreciate your suggestion though. We may fall back onto this option and just commit ourselves to the east coast and bahamas if it turns out she cannot tolerate the motion of a monohull.

Everything is a trade off I suppose.

 

[klee wyck]

I've looked into the power cats and they're not quite what I need for my own goals. For one thing, I don't see any of them capable of >1000nm range. They just don't seem to carry that sort of tankage (probably due to weight). I appreciate your suggestion though. We may fall back onto this option and just commit ourselves to the east coast and bahamas if it turns out she cannot tolerate the motion of a monohull.

Everything is a trade off I suppose.

This is not the run of the mill charter cat in the Bahamas I am talking about. While rare, the true trawler cats are out there. Ours (photo) has a 6000 nm of autonomous range and is capable of any body of water.
Ours has crossed the Pacific three times.
A sister ship sold within the last month on the east coast somewhere and the new owner showed up here on TF.

 

[Tate]

This is not the run of the mill charter cat in the Bahamas I am talking about. While rare, the true trawler cats are out there. Ours (photo) has a 6000 nm of autonomous range and is capable of any body of water.
Ours has crossed the Pacific three times.
A sister ship sold within the last month on the east coast somewhere and the new owner showed up here on TF.

Very impressive, where can I find more details on your boat or others like it?

 

[klee wyck]

Dominocatamaran.blogspot.com
Or. Google Malcom Tennant power catamarans
Or google Roger Hill power catamarans
There are others but the ocean cats are less common and not to be confused with the Lagoons, Aspen, Aquila, Horizon of the world.
Those are fine boats and good at what they do, but I do not consider them trawler cats.

 

[Tate]

Dominocatamaran.blogspot.com
Or. Google Malcom Tennant power catamarans
Or google Roger Hill power catamarans
There are others but the ocean cats are less common and not to be confused with the Lagoons, Aspen, Aquila, Horizon of the world.
Those are fine boats and good at what they do, but I do not consider them trawler cats.

Thanks for that Bill, gives me a lot to consider.

 

[Mac2]

I see a lot of Nordhavns with this Forespar setup. Maybe others can comment on how well they work. I added a Magma pole on my previous boat, Krogen Manatee, and it helped a lot. It slowed the roll and cut the time of rolling in half.

 

[mvweebles]

The Forespar setup is very nicely done and reasonably priced given the quality ($1200 for each pole with mounting knuckle). However I believe they've been discontinued. I have a pair on Weebles and used them frequently on our run down the Pacific coast of Mexico. Attached pic is anchorage off Cabo San Lucas. They take about 15-mins to set or retrieve. I have the Magna rocker stopper plates which store nicely.

The challenge is rigging them - not all trawlers have a good high point. Also Nordhavns have an asymmetrical layout where the saloon is full width on port side. Without access via side decks, setting (and retrieving) a port side pole is difficult.

I would not be without them and the Forespar kit is excellent quality at a reasonable price (at least they were 3-years ago)......if your boats configuration allows their use.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

I don't know if I suck at picking anchorages, just sail in places where it is tough, or maybe I'm more sensitive than most of you. I have over 1000 nights at anchor (from 10 years of liveaboard cruising), in both a monohull and a catamaran. My memories of the monohull include often getting waked, getting rocked in bad weather even in protected waters, and some really bad times with swell that wraps around a headland.

I probably did 700+ anchoring while cruising. In the beginning, I didn't spend the time and fuel to get far off the beaten path. Then I started to realize that most of the better anchorages required additional time and travel.

Spend more time picking the anchorages in advance, especially if you're going to spend days there.

I'm where the blue dot is:

#1

#2

#3

Also, I liked my boat quiet at night. I don't want to listen to the groan of flopper stoppers, gyro stabilizers, or generators.

Ted

 

[slowgoesit]

As you can see from my avatar (picture credit goes to Peter and Cheryl of MV Weebles), our boat has paravane stabilizers for use while underway. They also work quite well at anchor. We have a set of actual "vaned flopper stoppers" that were on board when we purchased the boat, but we, like the previous owners never felt the need to detach the paravane "fish" and attach the flopper stoppers when at anchor. It's probably a 10 minute job, once we dig the flopper stoppers out from under the master stateroom bed, but frankly, we never saw the need. If we were anchoring in less than 16' of water depth, we just retrieve the outrigger arms to lessen the depth of the fish. Of course, that will also lessen the arm and moment on the fish, making them less effective, but a "fish depth" of say 7' would still have an arm of about 10' from the gunnel, and do a nice job of reducing roll while at anchor.

Unrelated, having the outriggers deployed at anchor (we call them our "Bitch Wings") tends to reduce the likelihood of people anchoring too close to us, another plus! What's not to like?

 

[Mako]

That is a great point. I was shocked at how much easier it is to sleep in rough weather when your bed is Port to Starboard. Better underway, and at anchor.

That's interesting but seems counterintuitive. I suppose what you're getting at is that the gentle rolling of your body back and forth due to a berth being aligned longitudinally (the traditional way) is less comfortable than athwartship, where you wouldn't roll, just "tilting" up and down a bit.

I'll have to think on this one some more for my future boat, because the traditional advice from nearly all sailing books and discussions is to avoid athwart.

@Snapdragon III tell more about your experience comparing the two - I'm open minded.

 

[rslifkin]

I'll have to think on this one some more for my future boat, because the traditional advice from nearly all sailing books and discussions is to avoid athwart.

I think that advice is related to berths being usable as a sea berth on a sailboat, rather than sleeping comfort at anchor. For a sea berth on a monohull sailboat, you have to sleep longitudinally, as you may be sleeping with the boat heeled 15 degrees. Sleeping 15 degrees head up would be mildly unpleasant, but if there's a tack while you're sleeping, now you're sleeping 15 degrees head down and that would be awful. If you're oriented longitudinally, there's no such problem as long as you have something to keep you from rolling out of the bunk.

 

[Tate]

I probably did 700+ anchoring while cruising. In the beginning, I didn't spend the time and fuel to get far off the beaten path. Then I started to realize that most of the better anchorages required additional time and travel.

Spend more time picking the anchorages in advance, especially if you're going to spend days there.
<snip>

Also, I liked my boat quiet at night. I don't want to listen to the groan of flopper stoppers, gyro stabilizers, or generators.

Ted

Thanks for the advice Ted. I do try to follow it. And beautiful photos by the way, I hope they brought back some good memories for you as you posted them.

 

[Mako]

Okay those are good points @rslifkin and you're right that all that literature is sailing-related

 

[Finally Fun Again]

We spent about 6 years cruising full time from Canada through the Caribbean on our 50' DeFever. We stabilized her after about year 3 due to mostly other people's inconsiderate WAKES rocking the paint off our boat....Only a couple of times did I wish I had a seat belt in my bed over those years - with or without stabilizers. We anchored out maybe 97% of the six years.. We were just chartering in Alaska (Petersburg - Ketchcan) and not one rock and roll over 2 weeks...same in Desolation Sound, BC over 2 weeks. However, the stabilization was sweet while in motion, cruising at 8-9 knots with beam seas especially...but for $60K for stabilizers - sea sick pill is cheap....