Simple vs complex energy systems on board

[cfr]

Hi had a good discussion today with a trawlerowner . we discussed lenghtly about solarsystem, diesel gen, diesel heater, victron, dc vs ac fridges, engine heat boiler, gas vs induction cooking etc etc. and we came to the conclusion that there is none.
his approach was to keep thinks simple but not as efficient. so he starts the genny when he cooks or wash or do it while he running the engines anyway, the diesel heater when he showers and told me he save a lot of headache and space in the boat without ugly solar panels, water boilers and big batterie banks........and in the end maybe even money because pay back time can be long......

a refreshing guy when we all want to maximise energy use......

 

[O C Diver]

Generators aren't maintenance free either. If it dies and you have to replace it, $50K parts and labor isn't hard to imagine. Not saying which way one should go, but a 24 volt 200 amp alternator on the main engine, an inverter, and an appropriate house bank would be maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of the price with zero maintenance and only the additional fuel to run the alternator.

Ted

 

[Frosty]

Not dissing your post at all, because it's always interesting to really think things over -- never know when you might just be doing something because "that's the way it's done" and no other reason.

OTOH, definitely depends. I would have to add a generator to do it his way. Talk about complicated/expensive/not-simple). And my solar panels happen to be beautiful (Plus they are so quiet.)

Again, I'm not dissing you or him. Just.... his way is not necessarily simpler.

BTW, love your boat @cfr (in your avatar)

 

[ranger58sb]

Generators aren't maintenance free either. If it dies and you have to replace it, $50K parts and labor isn't hard to imagine.

Also true, but...

If there's already a genset on board I think sometimes it can make sense to just use the thing... in lieu of alterative additions that may or may not amortize (any better than the generator) over time. Many gensets do last a long time...

I like the "it depends" answers...

-Chris

 

[MV Moira]

A rule we follow is one I read long ago: The one right way to do anything (e.g. generate electricity) on a cruising boat is multiple ways. I've seen too many boats that had to cut short a trip because the one way they had to do something (generation, steering, etc.) packed up.

It's all about tradeoffs, right? Redundancy increases availability at the cost of complexity. What's more important to you? Sounds like the individual referenced in the original post prefers simplicity, even if it comes at the cost of potentially reduced availability. If he's always within range of a marina, or willing to take the chance of a canceled vacation or aborted passage, that's understandable.

 

[Bmarler]

Like most things boat related, it’s all about how you want to use the boat. I add things that make me happy. I don’t mind complexity because I understand how things work and know how to deal with issues when they arise.

 

[O C Diver]

Also true, but...

If there's already a genset on board I think sometimes it can make sense to just use the thing... in lieu of alterative additions that may or may not amortize (any better than the generator) over time. Many gensets do last a long time...

I like the "it depends" answers...

-Chris

True.

So, twin generators for redundancy from much higher use?

Ted

 

[MV Moira]

True.

So, twin generators for redundancy from much higher use?

Ted

That certainly could be one tactic. One must be careful about finding the other Single Points of Failure (fuel supply, electrical distribution panel...) at least for the systems the failure of which could ruin your day.

 

[ranger58sb]

True.

So, twin generators for redundancy from much higher use?

Ted

There ya go!

Actually, I've seen listings for boats with twin gensets, one larger than the other for load management purposes. Outa our league, though...

-Chris

 

[Mambo42]

I think it all becomes complicated when we start to overthink everything and try to match up equipment that is difficult to match up.
To me it should be simple, I want to be able to flip a switch and there is light or I can cook. So how do I do that ? And how do I provide the electricity while I am underway, on anchor or at the dock ? And how do I provide that at the most cost effective way possible, plus with the least noise and environment pollution.

So my system is based around a large LFP battery bank. That battery bank can power the whole boat for many days. In case that battery bank needs to be charged I can do that via solar, shore, generator or alternator power.
In case the battery bank fails I can provide power to the boat directly from the generator or the shore or the alternators to the inverter. The generator can even bypass the inverter and deliver straight to the 220 V system. That way I always have 220 V and in case I need 12 or 24 V I can connect into my 4 12 V start batteries or connect into my 24 V system batteries (bow and stern thrusters). Those batteries can get charged via the alternators, but also via a 220 V to 12 V and 220 V to 24 V charger and since I have always 220 V available i can always charge those batteries.
So I have redundancy and it will all work automatically if everything functions. That guarantees me power to the boat and that is all I want.

 

[ksanders]

Hi had a good discussion today with a trawlerowner . we discussed lenghtly about solarsystem, diesel gen, diesel heater, victron, dc vs ac fridges, engine heat boiler, gas vs induction cooking etc etc. and we came to the conclusion that there is none.
his approach was to keep thinks simple but not as efficient. so he starts the genny when he cooks or wash or do it while he running the engines anyway, the diesel heater when he showers and told me he save a lot of headache and space in the boat without ugly solar panels, water boilers and big batterie banks........and in the end maybe even money because pay back time can be long......

a refreshing guy when we all want to maximise energy use......

The discussion in some ways makes sense.

People now days are hell bent, and spend a lot of time and money to not need a generator.

But... on larger boats, especially commercial boats generators run 24X7X365 as their needs are greater than dock power can offer.

So what's wrong with avoiding all the technology, and just run your generator???

 

[Don L]

In 15 years the solar only ever had 1 problem.

Meanwhile the generator seemed to have one monthly

 

[cfr]

Yes solar is nice , i have one panel on my sailboat and spent the whole summer at anchor without any genny but now i move to a krogen express and honestly there is no good place for panels without a hardtop which increases the airdraft too much....so there are alleays compromisses

 

[Mambo42]

Yes solar is nice , i have one panel on my sailboat and spent the whole summer at anchor without any genny but now i move to a krogen express and honestly there is no good place for panels without a hardtop which increases the airdraft too much....so there are alleays compromisses

I took a look at Krogen Express and I would not despair. I saw more than enough places where you can put quite a few solar panels.
In fact the most unexpected solution I ever saw was by Henk Jan of Lady Liselot. He built a frame in front of the pilot house and put 4 panels on that frame. The frame now also provides shade and as far as i know he has already been in storms with them, the panels are still there.
But on the stern you also have enough space for a frame for 4 panels. That frame can then also act as a davits system for your dinghy, solves two problems at once.

 

[Frosty]

Fair enough if your boat doesn't lend itself to fitting solar panels. But... your friend calling them "ugly" was kind of weird. I mean it's not like listening to someone's generator is "pretty."

I guess I just got a whiff (from your friend) not of "this is the solution that works for me" (great!), but rather "here's how I do it and of course I don't do any of the ugly/silly things those other people do." (Battery bank/solar panels/whatever-he-doesn't-do.)

My thought with most things boating is that while there are some definite wrong ways to do things, there are a LOT of "right" ways. Just depends on the situation.

Your new boat is lovely, btw. Love the Krogen Express.

 

[cfr]

Good idea maybe i can get contact and a photo to see, i dont want to destroy the look too much but if i go back to the med and greece with that sun i will add panels, in the north with poor sun condition i will try a season to learn more.

 

[Mac2]

Simple. Right up to when it’s not. Simple is not having a complex water maker and a rare heat wave hits the San Juan islands and they won’t let you fill your fresh water tanks at the fuel dock unless you buy x amount of fuel. Simple is having one toilet until it breaks. Simple is one cooking source until it breaks. As someone mentioned above, it comes down to weather you want to cut your trip short or not. If not, you need a backup, or spare parts. Usually comes down to space, or your ability to fix things.
Edit: My canvas wore out on the Bimini. I replaced with solar panels that will last twice as long, cheaper, and have the benefit of putting some juice in the batteries. Other then the right angles (instead of rounded) at the front corners, you can’t tell any difference in looks.

 

[Mambo42]

So what's wrong with avoiding all the technology, and just run your generator???

If you have a crew onboard you can indeed run a generator all day long........if you want.
But since we are with just 2 onboard and I don't want to sleep with a generator running, I have to switch it off, even if the boat needs power. Yes, the generator will shut itself down if anything goes wrong, however if a raw water hose ruptures or if something electrical goes wrong, I won't be there, simply because I am asleep.
So my rule is no running machines or engines when we are both asleep.

And then of course there is the noise and pollution. I don't want to sit in an anchorage and have to listen to the generator all day long. I also don't want exhaust fumes polluting the water where we want to swim.
And lastly there are the cost of running a generator or taking shore power in a marina. Having to run the generator for us means running it 12 hours a day for roughly 270 - 300 days a year. At 3 ltrs per hour that would be close to 10.000 liters of fuel each year at a cost of about 13.000 - 15.000 euro.
Plugging into shore power in the Med will cost you about 1 euro per Kwh nowadays, so if your boat needs 20 Kwh per day that will be a 600 euro electricity bill each month.

Solar costs me the cost of the panels (nowadays about 100 euro a piece) and the cost of the MPPT controllers (about 160 euro a piece and I have 5 of them. So the panels and the MPPT controllers did cost me a total of around 2000 euro. I then had a frame made of stainless steel and that doubles as a davits system for the dinghy. That frame cost 5000 euro, so in total I paid 7000 euro to have 3.2 Kwp in solar on my boat.
And because of that solar I hardly use the generator anymore, I don't need shore power, so I am saving myself, each year, around 15.000 euro. In other words those panels pay themselves back in half a season.

That is the reason why I invested in solar. It is quiet, it does not pollute, I can charge my battery of my electric outboard and it provides free electricity. The cost of fuel and electricity in a marina will not come down, it will only go up, so my savings will just grow and grow.
Therefore, on the next boat I will install it again, probably even more solar panels.

However, if you only use your boat during the weekend and then only in the summer, in an area where there is hardly any sun...........then indeed it is cheaper and easier to run the generator all the time. Even if you would take the boat out for a week it would be still ok to run the generator, as long as you can shut it down during the night.

 

[ksanders]

While I have solar, and a large battery bank, and even redundant inverters, I can see the argument for some folks that just running the generator is the best move.

Especially if you need to run AC all night long, something nearly impossible without running your generator.

Lots of good arguments against it, but simple works just fine if you have a well maintained, properly installed generator, and make that your main source of power.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Whatever works works, lots of right answers for lots of applications. Hopefully my generator will be back on line soon, it came with the boat. If it doesn't I will replace it with something smaller. Don't need 7.5 KW, 4 would be enough. I have 4 at the dock (30A, 120V) so 4 KW would be enough.

And that would give me room for more batteries.

 

[O C Diver]

Whatever works works, lots of right answers for lots of applications. Hopefully my generator will be back on line soon, it came with the boat. If it doesn't I will replace it with something smaller. Don't need 7.5 KW, 4 would be enough. I have 4 at the dock (30A, 120V) so 4 KW would be enough.

And that would give me room for more batteries.

Some of the smaller ones run at much higher RPM. My 9 KW was very quiet. My buddy's 5 KW was totally obnoxious. Choose wisely!

Ted

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, the 1800 vs 3600 thing. I know. I would prefer to use the genny last.

Use the solar and the batts first, the alternators when the boat is moving and the genny last.

But it's there now and first I need to see if I can fix it. All the rest comes later -

 

[Marco Flamingo]

For us, a generator would take a lot of the fun out of boating. Running a generator in a remote anchorage, you won't see bear, deer, wolves, etc. on the shore. No loons calling. No otter on the swimstep. We've spent a few night near boats running generators. I don't want to be that guy. Even to the point of avoiding power hungery amenities. But instead of feeling like I'm missing out by removing my generator, I feel like I've gained a lot.

I know that some claim to have generators that don't make any noise, dogs that don't bark, etc. I don't believe it and neither does most wildlife.

 

[cfr]

Beeing new to this power hungry boats with fridge freezer etc i was hoping that one can run the 1 or 2 hrs a day, never thought about running it 24 hrs. My genny is also too big with 12 kw....after a season i might know better how the average consumption is. Or do you have somefigures at hand ? Isnt a 1000 a 12v house bank enough for 12 hts and can be charged in an hour or does one need lifepo for this fast charging, i have zwo victron combi 12 120 3000

 

[Jklotz]

We've only got 320 amp hours on 3 AGM house batteries and 350 watts solar, so I've got to run the gen once a day, usually 1st thing in the morning. Once the AGM's give up the ghost, I'll probably look at upgrading to lifepo or whatever is the best then. I think, in the mean time, I'll go with something like this to monitor energy usage - a friend at the dock showed it to me on his boat and it looks like a pretty slick way to do it:

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Energy...msclkid=e4dedae5fcd614347255b22098b42fde&th=1

 

[ksanders]

Part of this discussion is having a properly installed, good quality generator.
I cannot speak of all installations, but we have run our generator 24x7 in the Sea of Cortez in the summer to support the AC units and it is difficult to hear. Actually the watermaker is much more noisey.

It is impossible to have enough battery power to support our boat, sitting in 90 degree water, with temperatures in the day at 100, and at night in the 80's comfortable on battery power.

But... it is possible to buy a good generator, and install it to minimize the sound.

 

[cfr]

another question....my genny will have 12 kw which is a lot, so i need to consume 8 kw to run it ....why they are so big. so need to charge 2 kw to batteries 2 kw to bake bread run the washing machine and cook on the induction cooker......i would need a electric sauna to use so much available power.

 

[ksanders]

another question....my genny will have 12 kw which is a lot, so i need to consume 8 kw to run it ....why they are so big. so need to charge 2 kw to batteries 2 kw to bake bread run the washing machine and cook on the induction cooker......i would need a electric sauna to use so much available power.

The size of the generator you need is 100% dependent on your loads.

My boat as an example... I have a 9 KW Northern Lights generator.
With almost 50,000 BTU of reverse cycle AC/heat, and electric stove, watermaker etc... I can come close to maxing out the generators ability to keep up.

 

[SteveK]

another question....my genny will have 12 kw which is a lot, so i need to consume 8 kw to run it ....why they are so big. so need to charge 2 kw to batteries 2 kw to bake bread run the washing machine and cook on the induction cooker......i would need a electric sauna to use so much available power.

I would have thought the genny would be sized to service possible loads. You describe far less. Do you have any other electrically like heaters or air conditioners, water makers?
Using less is better than not having enough

 

[cfr]

not now....no aircon...heating is hydronic kabola incl hot water...no watermaker. so i open a bakery maybe