Should we opt for Lithium Iron batteries (LiFePo) over Lead Acid kind?

[hrk]

What are the advantages and disadvantages of using lithium iron phosphate batteries in our boat (new build of KK 60’ Open design) instead of usual LA batteries? I am sure price is more but how much more? Is volume size or power required factors in making that decision?

HRK

 

[Bacchus]

This is worth a read. My take aways...
Beware of the so called "drop in" replacement variety
The whole system design needs to be considered
But from reputable US companies & resist the urge to but primarily on price
Don't believe the marketing hype and even labeling can be wrong or misleading

https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

 

[mvweebles]

I assume you will have a new-build for a while. Lifepo4 shine over the long haul. 5x charge cycle life. Charge much faster. Very steady discharge rate. More usable AH. They are 70% lighter so easier to change. Can be placed in an out of the way place.

Downsides are cost which is coming down fairly fast. They do require some special circuitry. Also, AGM are still considered better for start (and probably thruster/windlass if those are electric) batteries so you will need some special charging for the two different types of batteries.

In 4-5 years of cruising you will swap your lead acid for new. You should get a good 10+years from LiFePO4

Good luck. Pictures please of your pride and joy

Peter

 

[fryedaze]

New build Krogen, deep pockets, GO FOR IT.

 

[fryedaze]

New build Krogen, deep pockets, GO FOR IT.

You will save size and weight.

 

[Piaro]

Ok call me a chicken but I have serious concerns on the safety of using Lithium Ion batteries in boats. Odds are nothing will ever happen, but if it does and you aren't in a steel hull IMHO there's a good chance that you'll lose the boat if the batteries aren't surrounded by some heavy duty fire barrier, and even then I'd have concerns, especially with heat and they also emit significant quantities of toxic fumes. Remember they are prohibited as cargo in passenger aircraft.



This past winter there was a car fire (EV) not too far from where I live and the fire department ran out of water trying to put it out and were ultimately unable to and just let it burn. I think it was either 20,000 or 30,000 gallons they used before they ran out.



Anyway, just my 2 cents on the matter but do your own research and make your own decisions, plenty of info on the web for both sides.

 

[Simi 60]

Ok call me a chicken but I have serious concerns on the safety of using Lithium Ion batteries in boats.

So do I but he is not
He is talking about lifepo4

This past winter there was a car fire (EV) not too far from where I live and the fire department ran out of water trying to put it out and were ultimately unable to and just let it burn. I think it was either 20,000 or 30,000 gallons they used before they ran out.

Not lifepo4
Not relevant.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on the matter but do your own research and make your own decisions, plenty of info on the web for both sides

I agree
And you need to do more research into the differences between the two.

 

[Comodave]

LiFePO4 batteries are not the ones that catch fire. Do some studying before writing that. Read the article on marinehowto.com and learn about them. Boats are not using Lithium Ion batteries.

 

[Piaro]

So do I but he is not
He is talking about lifepo4


Not lifepo4
Not relevant.


I agree
And you need to do more research into the differences between the two.

Oops my bad, you are correct and thanks for pointing that out!


And yes I'm aware of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, just read the title and had a mental disconnect, usually a sign to get off the internet for the day!

 

[fryedaze]

LiFePO4 batteries are not the ones that catch fire. Do some studying before writing that. Read the article on marinehowto.com and learn about them. Boats are not using Lithium Ion batteries.

No worries with Li Fe PO4[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

 

[catalinajack]

I assume you will have a new-build for a while. Lifepo4 shine over the long haul. 5x charge cycle life. Charge much faster. Very steady discharge rate. More usable AH. They are 70% lighter so easier to change. Can be placed in an out of the way place.

Downsides are cost which is coming down fairly fast. They do require some special circuitry. Also, AGM are still considered better for start (and probably thruster/windlass if those are electric) batteries so you will need some special charging for the two different types of batteries.

In 4-5 years of cruising you will swap your lead acid for new. You should get a good 10+years from LiFePO4

Good luck. Pictures please of your pride and joy

Peter

My flooded lead acid batteries are 5 years old and stand at 97% of original capacity. I anticipate getting at least 3 more years and perhaps 4 or 5. Replacement cost for eight Trojan golf car batteries? Yup, $1,300. How many of us are going to be alive in 13- 15 years never mind still being in boating? Lithium has many advantages. Cost is not one of them for most folks.

 

[twistedtree]

I'd suggest doing a search here on Trawler Forum. There have been several recent/concurrent discussions about the pros and cons that will provide a bunch of good info and different perspectives. Much depends on how you use your boat. If you plan to spend a lot of time at anchor, LFP batteries can be transformational. I also think they are much like stabilizers. People without them will argue why they aren't needed. But once you have them, you will never go back.

 

[sunchaser]

CJ
Cost is not a major factor for many Li users or those considering it. On a new build it is even less a factor. Li opens all sorts of doors for those doing an electrical makeover and have Subzeros, fishing freezers, a large solar array, spend much time at anchor, have a big alternator or two etc.

To save really big bucks, selling the boat is what all of us will eventually do. Until then, enjoy the upgrades, make them fit within our own personal budget and join the 21st century.

 

[mvweebles]

My flooded lead acid batteries are 5 years old and stand at 97% of original capacity. I anticipate getting at least 3 more years and perhaps 4 or 5. Replacement cost for eight Trojan golf car batteries? Yup, $1,300. How many of us are going to be alive in 13- 15 years never mind still being in boating? Lithium has many advantages. Cost is not one of them for most folks.

Not even close to my experience. Not sure why but same boat for 25 years and I probably had a at least 5 sets. And they were trashed by the time I swapped. If I'd had your experience I may not have been as eager to go lithium. Maybe my charger sucked.

Peter

Edit. Totally agree with TT that once you go lithium there's no going back. In my camper van, I went from two GC batteries to two LiFePO4. What a difference.

 

[catalinajack]

Not even close to my experience. Not sure why but same boat for 25 years and I probably had a at least 5 sets. And they were trashed by the time I swapped. If I'd had your experience I may not have been as eager to go lithium. Maybe my charger sucked.

Peter

Edit. Totally agree with TT that once you go lithium there's no going back. In my camper van, I went from two GC batteries to two LiFePO4. What a difference.

Also depends on how hard you work the batteries. My batteries have been cycled down to 50-60% about 100 times. Which is why FLA makes sense for my use case. For others like yourself, lithium may pay off, if you live long enough. I am 71yo. Fifteen years get me to 86yo. The life expectancy of a 71yo man is 14 years. Are you going to still be boating in 10 years ( two sets of FLA)?

 

[Bacchus]

Another vote for going LiFePO4. With a new build from KK I have to assume they will design a "system" that works. I think I would request complete documentation of their electrical design and manuf / suppliers list prior to build so you have the opportunity to review it yourself and/or with other knowledgeable resources.
When starting from scratch I have to believe the incremental cost is less than wanting to change things in the future.

 

[catalinajack]

Not even close to my experience. Not sure why but same boat for 25 years and I probably had a at least 5 sets. And they were trashed by the time I swapped. If I'd had your experience I may not have been as eager to go lithium. Maybe my charger sucked.

Peter

Edit. Totally agree with TT that once you go lithium there's no going back. In my camper van, I went from two GC batteries to two LiFePO4. What a difference.

Of course, cuz you will have a fortune invested. I, in any of the threads in which I have posted, have never attacked the efficacy of lithium. I do take great execption as to whether the initial adopter will ever reap the benefit of the long-term savings. The benefit will, in most cases, inure to the next owner. Lithium has other non-monetary benefits that are important in some cases but not many. Weight. Big whoop. Perhaps a savings of perhaps 250#. On any of our boats that is virtually nothing.

 

[catalinajack]

Another vote for going LiFePO4. With a new build from KK I have to assume they will design a "system" that works. I think I would request complete documentation of their electrical design and manuf / suppliers list prior to build so you have the opportunity to review it yourself and/or with other knowledgeable resources.
When starting from scratch I have to believe the incremental cost is less than wanting to change things in the future.

As many here know I do not see lithium to be cost effective for the initial retrofitter. On a new build, absolutely, for about a hundred reasons most important of which is design and implementation from the git-go. The extra cost on a new build is incrementally insignificant.

 

[slowgoesit]

I amended the OP's first post to state Lithium IRON phosphate rather than Lithium ION phosphate. I also changed the title to state Lithium IRON phosphate (LiFePo).
TF Site Team

 

[mvweebles]

Of course, cuz you will have a fortune invested. I, in any of the threads in which I have posted, have never attacked the efficacy of lithium. I do take great execption as to whether the initial adopter will ever reap the benefit of the long-term savings. The benefit will, in most cases, inure to the next owner. Lithium has other non-monetary benefits that are important in some cases but not many. Weight. Big whoop. Perhaps a savings of perhaps 250#. On any of our boats that is virtually nothing.

For me, because LiFePO4 are (or should be) zero maintenance for so long and can be mounted in any position, I was able to move them out of the engine room and into a lessor used space in the lazarette. Also got my inverter/charger out of the ER. So definitely some non-monetary benefits.

That said, they really work well. They deliver very consistent voltage even when there is high demand.

 

[slowgoesit]

For us, the benefit of LiFePo batteries will not be a $$$ savings, or a "return on investment" (It's a BOAT for heaven's sake!), nor a weight savings benefit, but rather a quality of life benefit. We like the ability to more rapidly charge up a house battery bank (LiFePo vs AGM, or FLA), and also the capability of drawing the battery bank down to 10% or 5% of rated capacity without damaging the batteries as would be the case with FLA or AGM.
Our old (installed 12 July of 2019) house battery bank consists of two Lifeline 225 ah AGM batteries, and only lightly used during Covid.
So on paper, a 450 ah battery bank, however, direct from the Lifeline website:

What depth of discharge should be used when sizing a battery?To get the best cycle life, the average depth of discharge should be as low as possible. Concorde recommends the average depth of discharge to be no greater than 50% of the battery's 20 hour rating.

So with the above battery bank, using the manufacturer's recommendations, each battery really only has a usable ah of 122.5 ah, or 225 ah for BOTH batteries.
The new battery bank will be 1000 ah of LiFePo batteries, which the manufacturer states can be safely and regularly taken down to 10% or 5% SOC. Sooooo, by planning conservatively, at 10% SOC, we will still have a 900 ah battery bank . . . . which will be 4X improvement on what we currently have.

Absolutely nothing against AGM's, and we will probably end up selling the two we currently have, but we are looking forward to the LiFePo battery bank! Coming soon to a boat near you! We have them, just need to install them. Already installed the Victron Quattro 12/5000 inverter charger, just need to figure out how we are going to physically install the LiFePo batteries.

Batteries will be charged underway with main engine alternator (properly protected), or with Victron Quattro. (main generator is hydraulically driven off of main engine anytime when underway), dockside with Victron Quattro, and at all times when sun is out with solar cells as soon as they are installed . . . which won't happen until new hard bimini is installed. . . .

 

[Wdeertz]

I'd suggest doing a search here on Trawler Forum. There have been several recent/concurrent discussions about the pros and cons that will provide a bunch of good info and different perspectives. Much depends on how you use your boat. If you plan to spend a lot of time at anchor, LFP batteries can be transformational. I also think they are much like stabilizers. People without them will argue why they aren't needed. But once you have them, you will never go back.

Agree with TT. Installed LFP on KK52-01 last year and probably already have 200 cycles to 75-80% DOD and the bank isn’t even broken in yet. Coming off 90 days at anchor in the Bahamas and being able to get by on 1-2 hrs generator run per day is a quality of life matter. No voltage sag like lead acid, 5% SOC and run the microwave with absolutely no voltage sag is nice, try that with lead acid. Of course LFP doesn’t make sense if your use pattern is jumping from marina to marina but from prior posts I don’t believe that is your intended use. In the grand scheme of things given the initial cost of a kk60 Open the upgrade to LFP is minuscule.

 

[Simi 60]

As I've said on here before, I built a 24v @ 840ah usable lifepo4 bank for LESS coin than a 24v @ 840ah - 420ah usable AGM bank.

As for the weight, sure, the boat can carry extra weight of AGM easily
But my back thanks me for not lugging 8 X 165lb AGM in and out and into awkward spots.

 

[catalinajack]

For me, because LiFePO4 are (or should be) zero maintenance for so long and can be mounted in any position, I was able to move them out of the engine room and into a lessor used space in the lazarette. Also got my inverter/charger out of the ER. So definitely some non-monetary benefits.

That said, they really work well. They deliver very consistent voltage even when there is high demand.

Yes, the benefits you mention are what I acknowleged to be among the non-monetary benefits. To those of us, who I believe are a significant majority, who have no need of those benefits, lithium is simply not cost effective. Retrofitting is expensive because we know it is much more than simply replacing the batteries. And the cost-benefit equation is greatly extended if one is unable or unwilling to do the work himself. My FLA batteries? Maintenance? Yup,15 minutes 3 - 5 times per year. Space in the engine room? I have room to spare even with generators there. Plus, even if I wanted to I have space outside of the ER to which to locate batteries. And then there is the challenge of minimizing wire runs. This stuff is not easy guys. Lithium is no panacea although for a small number of boars with unusual use cases, lithium does indeed make sense.

 

[friz]

Ok call me a chicken but I have serious concerns on the safety of using Lithium.............This past winter there was a car fire (EV) not too far from where I live and the fire department ran out of water trying to put it out and were ultimately unable to and just let it burn. I think it was either 20,000 or 30,000 gallons they used before they ran out. Anyway, just my 2 cents on the matter but do your own research and make your own decisions, plenty of info on the web for both sides.

I believe that is called "anecdotal evidence".

 

[friz]

If Lithium is not a "Start Battery" and requires a special charger, does that mean I will need 2 chargers, 1 for Lithium and one for Lead Acid? Also the special alternator requirement is a bit confusing. Will a Lithium alternator also charge the Lead Acid Start Battery? Will a Blue Seas ACR hook up to the Lithium BMS and the Start Battery and manage the charging?

 

[mvweebles]

If Lithium is not a "Start Battery" and requires a special charger, does that mean I will need 2 chargers, 1 for Lithium and one for Lead Acid? Also the special alternator requirement is a bit confusing. Will a Lithium alternator also charge the Lead Acid Start Battery? Will a Blue Seas ACR hook up to the Lithium BMS and the Start Battery and manage the charging?

First, reason for a "special charger" is that LiFePO4 charge at a higher voltage than FLA - enough of a difference that the two don't coexist well on the same charger. Same for an alternator though those are typically dealt with by adding an externally adjustable regulator. A DC-DC charger acts as a translator of sorts between the two different battery chemistries. You could go either direction (FLA to LiFePO4 or the reverse) but because DC-DC chargers are typically lower amp rated, typically makes the most sense to put the full force of the alternator (or 120vac charger) to the house bank, then run the DC-DC to charge the FLA.

A Blue Sea ACR does not change the voltage l, only combines so would be appropriate between batteries of similar chemistry such as charging a generator start battery from the engine start battery of something.

In my opinion, LiFePO4 really only makes sense for a house bank. As CatalinaJack observes, you really should look at the entire system as a whole. It prefers to be charged at a fairly high amperage - 25% of the capacity so if you have a 600ah LiFePO4 house bank, it will easily take 150-amp alternator output. That requires heavier cabling, regulation, monitoring is a good addition, and perhaps some cooling. It is indeed a system upgrade, bit just a battery upgrade

Hope this helps.

Peter.

 

[DDW]

I cannot imagine building a new 60' semi-custom boat and then filling it with lead acid batteries. Would you also use cathode ray radar displays, Loran navigation, and incandescent light fixtures?

One might argue the cost effectiveness or technical feasibility of retrofitting modern batteries into an old hull, but none of these arguments hold water in a high end new build.

 

[Piaro]

I believe that is called "anecdotal evidence".

Here's one from last month in New York:


https://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/20...er-to-put-out-tesla-battery-fire-after-crash/



I live between the confluence of the Illinois and Mississippi rivers, about 30ish miles upriver, and the local papers had an article a couple months ago with a similar situation except I don't think this one was a Tesla. Didn't really pay that much attention except noticing they ran out of water which is not surprising as the fire departments around here aren't that well funded unless they're in a larger city. Anyway, a search isn't turning it up (of particular note this article was mentioning quantities of water in "swimming pool units") .


At any rate, this is a side track from the thread question which was about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and the initial posting was referring them as Lithium Ion which is another animal entirely and I made the mistake of not picking up on that.

 

[twistedtree]

A cost analysis isn’t the reason to get LFP. Enjoying and benefiting from the superior performance is the reason to buy, and you just need to decide it the cost is worth it to you.

It’s not much different from installing an inverter. It brings comfort and convenience to cruising, and you need to decide if that’s worth it to.

Comparing cost over time to LA is definitely a factor, but to me it’s completely missing the point if that’s all you consider.