I have a 2010 True NOrth 38. I have recently replaced the Xantrax, as I was told the old one was causing my shore power to trip the breaker. New one in - and it is still tripping the shore power breaker. It is especially an issue when the battery is way down, but when the battery is well charged, not an issue. It even trips when the breaker on the panel is turned to OFF so that the shore power is isolated. The galvanic isolators need replacing too. Any ideas?
Shore power popping breaker on the dock
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Bud
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You have to figure out if it is tripping from drawing to many amps or if it is a GFCI breaker then it could be from leakage to ground. Grounds and nuetrals have to be seperate.
Bud
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I’m guessing there is no easy way to accomplish same? I don’t think it is a GFCI, as the boat is a 2010 and it only has 1, in the head, and it is good. The 1 dead, one limping galvanic isolators could be the culprit. I have two ordered. Beyond that, how might one check to see if grounds and neutrals are separate? This has been an issue since I bought the boat, and the surveyor didn’t discover.
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Is the breaker that is tripping on the dock? I assume it is from the title in this thread. If the breaker has a test button on it then it is a GFCI. Because you said it is a problem only when batteries are low makes me believe that you are drawing to many amps. Do you have a way to measure the incoming amps. A clamp on ammeter or somebody that has electrcal knowledge that can help you?
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Are the loads downstream of the inverter neutrals on a separate neutral buss bar than the shore power neutral?
Maybe the only reason the shorepower breaker trips is because it has a lower actural trip point than what should be the next 2 breakers on your boat. And that is why it happens when the batery charge is low and the charger is cranking.
But as others say it could be a few things
But as others say it could be a few things
Typically a gfci trip of a dock breaker happens right away, and isn’t load dependent.
If it’s a problem of the xantrex pulling too many amps, there is a setting where you choose the breaker size. You can set a lower value there so it won’t draw so much power. Of course, this reduces the charging amps and the charge time increases.
If it’s a problem of the xantrex pulling too many amps, there is a setting where you choose the breaker size. You can set a lower value there so it won’t draw so much power. Of course, this reduces the charging amps and the charge time increases.
tiltrider1
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Based on what you have said, the battery charger portion on your inverter is pulling more than 30 amps of power to charge your battery. You need to reprogram the inverter to not pull so much power.
It is very possible that you are not giving us complete information and there is a different issue. I would start by purchasing an amp meter. https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multime...1825115&sprefix=amp+meter,aps,289&sr=8-6&th=1. This will tell you how many amps are actually coming into the boat. This data will give us a better idea of the true issue.
It is very possible that you are not giving us complete information and there is a different issue. I would start by purchasing an amp meter. https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Multime...1825115&sprefix=amp+meter,aps,289&sr=8-6&th=1. This will tell you how many amps are actually coming into the boat. This data will give us a better idea of the true issue.
I have an input (shore power) meter on my panel, so I can check and see what is coming in. I fully charged the battery on the generator tonight and ran the boat. When I got back to the dock and plugged up shore power, I had the breakers on the boat panel OFF and plugged up - and it popped the dock breaker - theoretically, no load.
New cables, new Xantrax. The moment I plug in the 30 amp that goes to the DC side of the panel, it pops. Breakers on the boat are doing nothing, only the dock.
Dock power was installed in October. 30 amp GFCI breakers. The trip button says 14a - I’m assuming amps?
I’ll grab an amp meter tomorrow if the one on the panel isn’t helpful.
The shore power that goes to the AC works just fine - no problems. Weird.
Thanks for everyone’s help. I’ve just about got this rig exactly how I want her.
New cables, new Xantrax. The moment I plug in the 30 amp that goes to the DC side of the panel, it pops. Breakers on the boat are doing nothing, only the dock.
Dock power was installed in October. 30 amp GFCI breakers. The trip button says 14a - I’m assuming amps?
I’ll grab an amp meter tomorrow if the one on the panel isn’t helpful.
The shore power that goes to the AC works just fine - no problems. Weird.
Thanks for everyone’s help. I’ve just about got this rig exactly how I want her.
SteveK
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Your inverter was operating, correct. Definitely inverter neutrals are connected to the shore neutral when inverting, breaker blows due to inbalance. No hot in, neutral out
luna
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Let me see if I have this right and can help out.
Post #1 you mention Galvanic isolators. Plural.
Post #3 you note that one of the Galvanic Isolators is dead, the other is limping. How do you know?
Post #9 you state that: - the shore power that goes to the AC (air conditioners?) works just fine- no problems.
- the moment you plug in the 30 Amp that goes to the DC side of the panel, it pops.
Really, you are providing Alternating Current to the Direct Current side of your panel at 10 times the voltage?
I don't think so, you could be confused.
Lets try this:
When you plug in to a dock pedestal do you do so using 2 separate 30 Amp cords to 2 separate receptacles?
Same thing at the boat end, a pair of each?
One cord for the air conditioners and one for the rest of the 120 Volt loads like the Microwave, TV, & the Disco Ball Lights?
Is it the Ground Fault protection part of the dockside breaker that trips or is it the overload portion of the dockside breaker that trips?
Do you know what split phase means?
Are there any 240 Volt loads onboard? Possibly water heater or oven.
Don't be afraid to say "I have no idea" to any question.
Post #1 you mention Galvanic isolators. Plural.
Post #3 you note that one of the Galvanic Isolators is dead, the other is limping. How do you know?
Post #9 you state that: - the shore power that goes to the AC (air conditioners?) works just fine- no problems.
- the moment you plug in the 30 Amp that goes to the DC side of the panel, it pops.
Really, you are providing Alternating Current to the Direct Current side of your panel at 10 times the voltage?
I don't think so, you could be confused.
Lets try this:
When you plug in to a dock pedestal do you do so using 2 separate 30 Amp cords to 2 separate receptacles?
Same thing at the boat end, a pair of each?
One cord for the air conditioners and one for the rest of the 120 Volt loads like the Microwave, TV, & the Disco Ball Lights?
Is it the Ground Fault protection part of the dockside breaker that trips or is it the overload portion of the dockside breaker that trips?
Do you know what split phase means?
Are there any 240 Volt loads onboard? Possibly water heater or oven.
Don't be afraid to say "I have no idea" to any question.
I have two separate 30 amp receptacles, both on the boat and the dock. Dock has two breakers in the fuse box - 30 amp GFCI with “test buttons” and a little yellow LED. Shore power one goes to the inverter, DC fridge, led lights, etc…. The ONLY thing on the AC side of the panel, is the air conditioners (2). No problems there, they work fine.
Just inside the house, there are two breakers for the incoming AC. Beside them are two galvanic isolators and they have led’s i can see in the house. One set of leds has worked - and occassionally alerted, but the reset usually solved that. The other, perhaps on the DC side, has never lit up. I assume it is dead.
I have all kinds of meters on my panel, incoming voltage, load amps, volts to house and engine banks, etc…. There is no load at the moment, as everything is off, including the hot water heater.
Tonight, I flipped off the two breakers ON THE BOAT, that are just beside the incoming shore power. Then I reset the tripped breaker in the boathouse. Plugged up the shore power, and the breaker DID NOT trip. The moment I flipped the shore power breakers in the house - the dock breaker flipped on the DC side.
As to 240, I have it in the garage for my car charger, but nothing on the pier.
Just inside the house, there are two breakers for the incoming AC. Beside them are two galvanic isolators and they have led’s i can see in the house. One set of leds has worked - and occassionally alerted, but the reset usually solved that. The other, perhaps on the DC side, has never lit up. I assume it is dead.
I have all kinds of meters on my panel, incoming voltage, load amps, volts to house and engine banks, etc…. There is no load at the moment, as everything is off, including the hot water heater.
Tonight, I flipped off the two breakers ON THE BOAT, that are just beside the incoming shore power. Then I reset the tripped breaker in the boathouse. Plugged up the shore power, and the breaker DID NOT trip. The moment I flipped the shore power breakers in the house - the dock breaker flipped on the DC side.
As to 240, I have it in the garage for my car charger, but nothing on the pier.
I’m not sure on what is tripping dock side - it is just the switch from on to off. The hot water heater has an option to flip to the DC side of the panel or the generator, but I leave it off at the electrical panel, it has its own breaker.
tiltrider1
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Helping you is going to be difficult. You need an expert to go through your system with you to educate you on how things work.
You say dock power was installed in October. My guess is that two new breakers were installed in October. The picture you show does not meet the current code so power must be at least 10 years old.
GFI breakers are not the same thing as the current codes 30ma leak detection requirements.
So back to what you can do. Start by turning off every breaker in your panel. Find the master breaker that should be located close to the shore power inlet. Unplug the shore power cords from the boat but plugged into the dock. Turn on the shore power breaker. At this point all should be good. If not then you have corrosion issues with the shore power cords.
Next plug in your primary shore cord only. See what happens. Nothing should happen because the master breaker is off. If something happens your shore power socket is faulty.
Next turn on only the master breaker. Still nothing should happen. If you trip the shore power here, something has been wired in that bypasses your panel.
Next, slowly turn on each breaker to see if there is a trip.
Report back your findings. This is only the beginning stage of troubleshooting.
You say dock power was installed in October. My guess is that two new breakers were installed in October. The picture you show does not meet the current code so power must be at least 10 years old.
GFI breakers are not the same thing as the current codes 30ma leak detection requirements.
So back to what you can do. Start by turning off every breaker in your panel. Find the master breaker that should be located close to the shore power inlet. Unplug the shore power cords from the boat but plugged into the dock. Turn on the shore power breaker. At this point all should be good. If not then you have corrosion issues with the shore power cords.
Next plug in your primary shore cord only. See what happens. Nothing should happen because the master breaker is off. If something happens your shore power socket is faulty.
Next turn on only the master breaker. Still nothing should happen. If you trip the shore power here, something has been wired in that bypasses your panel.
Next, slowly turn on each breaker to see if there is a trip.
Report back your findings. This is only the beginning stage of troubleshooting.
All breakers on the boat are OFF. Two mains near the shore power inlet are OFF 120/240v placard on both.
Shore power has been reset at the dock panel and is now plugged in to the boat (hot). And the breakers have not tripped. I only plugged in Shore Power 1, which runs everything but the air conditioning. Shore power 2 has not been a problem.
I have now turned on the main (master) for shore power 1, and it did not trip. The galvanic isolator that alerts a lot, beeped, but I reset it and it is all green now. Headed to the panel.
Turned on the panel main for shore power 1 and all is good. Showing 118 v in, and the Xantrax panel shows is charging the battery, the inverter LEDs are flashing from <10 thru 75, just running up the scale. Incoming AC Breaker Amps is set to 30. See photo attached.
Beginning the process of turning on breakers. All breakers are on at the panel. Water heater, outlets, microwave and central vacuum. Shore power 1 has still not tripped. Shore power 2 has not been plugged in. Everything is now working as designed???
I have turned on everything i can no the boat, including A/C. Now both sides are plugged in. Showing I’m pulling about 10 amps on each side (1 & 2) and the DC load is around 5 amps. Nothing is breaking??? Shore power is still working as designed???
Shore power two is now on, master, boat panel and it is functioning (never have problems with this one). It is showing 125 v coming in. Shore 1 input dropped to 110 v. Dock was built in the 80’s. Shore power was installed in October when I brought the new (old) boat home. I was told by the electrician that I had 50 amps coming to the pier.
I guess the lesson is turn off all breakers before attaching shore power, but I’m still curious why this worked?
Shore power has been reset at the dock panel and is now plugged in to the boat (hot). And the breakers have not tripped. I only plugged in Shore Power 1, which runs everything but the air conditioning. Shore power 2 has not been a problem.
I have now turned on the main (master) for shore power 1, and it did not trip. The galvanic isolator that alerts a lot, beeped, but I reset it and it is all green now. Headed to the panel.
Turned on the panel main for shore power 1 and all is good. Showing 118 v in, and the Xantrax panel shows is charging the battery, the inverter LEDs are flashing from <10 thru 75, just running up the scale. Incoming AC Breaker Amps is set to 30. See photo attached.
Beginning the process of turning on breakers. All breakers are on at the panel. Water heater, outlets, microwave and central vacuum. Shore power 1 has still not tripped. Shore power 2 has not been plugged in. Everything is now working as designed???
I have turned on everything i can no the boat, including A/C. Now both sides are plugged in. Showing I’m pulling about 10 amps on each side (1 & 2) and the DC load is around 5 amps. Nothing is breaking??? Shore power is still working as designed???
Shore power two is now on, master, boat panel and it is functioning (never have problems with this one). It is showing 125 v coming in. Shore 1 input dropped to 110 v. Dock was built in the 80’s. Shore power was installed in October when I brought the new (old) boat home. I was told by the electrician that I had 50 amps coming to the pier.
I guess the lesson is turn off all breakers before attaching shore power, but I’m still curious why this worked?
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A trivial point but the photo shows a 30mA Residual Current Device (RCD), also called a Residual Current Breaker with Overload (RCBO). While this device functions in the same way as the more well known Ground Fault Current Interrupter (GFCI) that is in your bathroom there are key and important differences.
A RCBO will trip if the leakage current is > 30mA and also has an overload circuit breaker built in. A GFCI will trip if the leakage current > 5mA. There is no overload function in the GFCI.
The photo shows an RCBO with 30mA trip on leakage and 30A trip on overload.
I am suspicious of your Galvanic Isolators. Several years ago, ABYC Standards mandated that the GI’s have an automatic test function to ensure that the ground path (green wire) between the vessel’s electrical system and the source of power on land (ultimately, the transformer supplying the marina/home dock) was intact. Your mention of LED indicators leads me to believe you have these. They were manufactured by ProMariner and there was a small panel that was mounted remotely, typically near the panelboard’s main shore power breaker with the LED’s.
The test function would induce a N>G bond that will trip a pedestal RCD.
In ensuing years, the ABYC Standard allowed either a monitored GI or one that has been tested and certified to be “fail safe”. A fail safe GI has components that, if they fail, will fail closed so that the safety ground system remains intact. If this occurs, the vessel will lose galvanic isolation but will retain the critical safety ground path.
I suggest that you find a good marine electrician to go over this portion of the system and verify what is installed. If my suspicions are correct, I recommend that you replace the existing GI’s with fail safe models.
Finally, GI’s block galvanic current from leaving or coming aboard so they are not a safety item. GI's simply ensure that the cathodic protection current being produced by your onboard anodes remains on your boat protecting your boat’s underwater metal components and is not leaving your boat via the safety ground wire to protect your neighbor’s UW metal components or the marina’s steel sheet piling.
A RCBO will trip if the leakage current is > 30mA and also has an overload circuit breaker built in. A GFCI will trip if the leakage current > 5mA. There is no overload function in the GFCI.
The photo shows an RCBO with 30mA trip on leakage and 30A trip on overload.
I am suspicious of your Galvanic Isolators. Several years ago, ABYC Standards mandated that the GI’s have an automatic test function to ensure that the ground path (green wire) between the vessel’s electrical system and the source of power on land (ultimately, the transformer supplying the marina/home dock) was intact. Your mention of LED indicators leads me to believe you have these. They were manufactured by ProMariner and there was a small panel that was mounted remotely, typically near the panelboard’s main shore power breaker with the LED’s.
The test function would induce a N>G bond that will trip a pedestal RCD.
In ensuing years, the ABYC Standard allowed either a monitored GI or one that has been tested and certified to be “fail safe”. A fail safe GI has components that, if they fail, will fail closed so that the safety ground system remains intact. If this occurs, the vessel will lose galvanic isolation but will retain the critical safety ground path.
I suggest that you find a good marine electrician to go over this portion of the system and verify what is installed. If my suspicions are correct, I recommend that you replace the existing GI’s with fail safe models.
Finally, GI’s block galvanic current from leaving or coming aboard so they are not a safety item. GI's simply ensure that the cathodic protection current being produced by your onboard anodes remains on your boat protecting your boat’s underwater metal components and is not leaving your boat via the safety ground wire to protect your neighbor’s UW metal components or the marina’s steel sheet piling.
Charlie,
Nothing trivial about your points. Thanks for correcting me on GFCI/RCBO. Grateful to learn the difference.
Spot on. My boat has two ProMariner galvanic isolators, mounted right next to the main breakers for shore power. Shore power 2 (Air conditioning) LED is dead-guessing that means the appliance is also. The other (shore power 1) alerts a lot, but when the test/reset button is pressed, it is quiet. I have looked online and see that a new “fail safe” option is available in a single unit, that will handle (2) 30 a cables. Do you have an opinion if this is better than the two separate units? I see that the same ones I have installed, are still available.
Really grateful to everyone contributing to this thread. This is my second True North. Bought my first one in 2008. It was brand new, and i don’t think the factory gave me the knowledge I got on this forum. It didn’t need much. This second one, I bought in October. It’s a 2010. Pretty clean but the owner appears to have lost interest and it had some maintenance and upgrades that I have been accomplishing. Love this group - THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP.
Nothing trivial about your points. Thanks for correcting me on GFCI/RCBO. Grateful to learn the difference.
Spot on. My boat has two ProMariner galvanic isolators, mounted right next to the main breakers for shore power. Shore power 2 (Air conditioning) LED is dead-guessing that means the appliance is also. The other (shore power 1) alerts a lot, but when the test/reset button is pressed, it is quiet. I have looked online and see that a new “fail safe” option is available in a single unit, that will handle (2) 30 a cables. Do you have an opinion if this is better than the two separate units? I see that the same ones I have installed, are still available.
Really grateful to everyone contributing to this thread. This is my second True North. Bought my first one in 2008. It was brand new, and i don’t think the factory gave me the knowledge I got on this forum. It didn’t need much. This second one, I bought in October. It’s a 2010. Pretty clean but the owner appears to have lost interest and it had some maintenance and upgrades that I have been accomplishing. Love this group - THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP.
That is exactly what you need. Note that it needs to be mounted where there is no chance of water contact as it is vented and has a small fan that will run if the internal temperature reaches a threshold. This would only occur if there was a fault to ground on board and significant AC was returning to the shoreside supply, a very unusual (as in, should never happen) occurrence. Water intrusion would damage the internals.
tiltrider1
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Funny, the factory mounted the two I have now, in the cabinet under the sink. I guess it would take a really weird situation for the sink, under mounted in Corian, to fail, but good to know.
You are giving boat builders too much credit. They mounted it there because it was easy for them and they weren’t smart enough to know a leaking sink would be an issue.
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