Selling our boat, with a new twist.

[ancora]

We have sold three boats before this, but this is a new twist for us. After a sea trial and a "survey" (payed for by the buyer) we get the questionable survey. The "surveyor" somehow missed the two GFCI receptacles on the boat, a throwable life ring, a carbon monoxide detector, etc. I'm wondering if he is an accredited surveyor or not. In California a surveyor should be a SAMS or a NAMs member. He refers to ABYC as a governing body...they are not. What really set me off was an estimate of work to be done on the boat that came with the survey, from a local repair shop for a mere $24,000. Yeah, what a buy. I'm calling the broker and telling him what he can do with the survey and the work estimate.

 

[SteveK]

Did the missed items matter, or were just missed.
Care to share details in the $24,000 and comment on them whether they are upgrades or repairs needed.

 

[soin2la]

I gather the “surveyor” had no credentials? He sounds like the expert brother in-law. Were those missed items missed or written as missing?

The local repair shop doing a 24k estimate without setting foot on the boat sounds cozy. I’d be making it clear that “survey” not be sold on or kept by the broker.

Me thinks you are being played.

 

[BruceK]

Lots of BS there. Doing the right thing with the alternator was hardly reciprocated.

 

[mvweebles]

My first "big boat" was a Uniflite 42 ACMY that I lived aboard when I first moved to San Francisco. Good boat in good shape. When the time came to sell, the first offer was from a not-so-nice guy who liked the boat but really wanted a newer one that had an island queen instead of twins in the aft stateroom. While his revised post-survey offer didn't explicitly include a remodel, it did reduce his offer by $20k ($80k boat at the time) for piddly ass stuff. He refused to share his survey, just issued his revised offer based on his summary of the findings. He was really pissed when I didn't respond to his offer and vaguely threatened to sue for the cost of his survey that he wouldn't share. The guy was a jerk - no offense taken. He was hardwired as an angry guy who viewed life as a zero sum game where someone has to lose so he could win. Fortunately for me he was an outlier in boats. Vast majority I've met view boats as a deal multiplier: 1 + 1 = 3 types of people. Win-win types.

My golden rule in used stuff is it's not fair to replace used stuff with new. There are exceptions (required safety gear being one) but for the most part, if something is discovered (vs disclosed) as needing replacement, 50% valuation is usually a fair place for both buyer and seller.

Few people respond well to strongarm negotiating tactics with unreasonable demands. They make for great theater (an offer you can't refuse - and the horse head in bed scene from The Godfather). But unless you're running a Pawn Shop where the seller is seriously distressed, better to negotiate in good faith. Doesn't sound like the OPs buyer fits the bill.

Best success in finding the right buyer. The folks who bought my old Uniflite were delightful people who had a great time with the boat.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

The OP doesn't know what credentials the survey has or doesn't have. Nor do we know what the recommendations were, and how that adds up to $24k. So not much to go on here other than an upset seller.

 

[SteveK]

At this point until the OP changes my mind, there may be more than a failed alternator at play here. Maybe not all of the the $24K but without details shared may as well be nutting burger.

 

[slowgoesit]

A couple of questions. Is the broker you are going to call, YOUR broker? As in, the Seller's broker? If yes, than what does HE say about the response?
Was the response to the survey IN WRITING? And was the $24k "estimate" followed up with a reduced offer?
Note: "two GFCI receptacles on the boat, a throwable life ring, a carbon monoxide detector" is MAYBE $400.00 . . . What was the other $24k in "repairs" for?

Where I'm going with this, is if the above was IN WRITING, and the "looker" changed his purchase offer to less, than you're P & S (Purchase and Sales Agreement . . . uhhh, you DO have a P&S, correct?) Anyway, if he offered less based on the survey, or any other reason, your P&S is now null and void. You don't even need to respond to the looker. You're free to find another, more serious buyer.

Also, whether or not the "surveyor" was credentialed, or not, is really not germane to the discussion.

Best of luck with the sale!

 

[Shrew]

There is rarely anything in the P&S that says that the surveyor must be NAMS/SAMS certified. Usually if you are going to charge for services it would be required, but my guess that is a state by state basis. Certainly most insurance and banks would require a NAMS/SAMS certified.

I've never seen a surveyor include an estimated cost for repairs. I've only ever seen a estimated value of the vessel. If I were the seller, I'd ask for the surveyors credentials. Then point to that and the mistakes as I refused the estimated cost of work.

 

[SteveK]

Certainly most insurance and banks would require a NAMS/SAMS certified.

If I remember this in a couple years I will ask my insurance if they recommend any or what quailfications are needed for surveyor.
The fellow doing my bottom paint and surveyor were talking and I became aware the painter was considering a job change. Since they knew each other there was a job opening suggested.
So how hard can it be to become certified I wondered.

 

[Portage_Bay]

There is rarely anything in the P&S that says that the surveyor must be NAMS/SAMS certified. Usually if you are going to charge for services it would be required, but my guess that is a state by state basis. Certainly most insurance and banks would require a NAMS/SAMS certified.

I've never seen a surveyor include an estimated cost for repairs. I've only ever seen a estimated value of the vessel. If I were the seller, I'd ask for the surveyors credentials. Then point to that and the mistakes as I refused the estimated cost of work.

My last two purchase surveys estimated the cost for repairs. Total nonsense, not even close to the mark.

 

[ancora]

Did the missed items matter, or were just missed.
Care to share details in the $24,000 and comment on them whether they are upgrades or repairs needed.

Too many to list, but here are some of them: stbd. engine,replace heat exchanger, replace engine oil cooler, replace engine muffler, etc. Port engine, replace heat exchanger end cap, replace oil cooler, replace seawater pump, replace exhaust muffler, replace exhaust hose, replace exhaust pipe elbow, etc. The buyer brought along a mechanic on the sea trial. He has worked on the boat before. The shop is known for "churning", i.e.,finding work where there is no work.

 

[DDW]

The qualifications of the surveyor should not be of much interest to the seller, he isn't depending on the result - the buyer is. If the buyer gets bad advice as a consequence, he may skip a boat that he should have bought, but it is all his problem, not the sellers.

In my limited experience, the number of letters a surveyor can put after their name says little or nothing about their competence.

 

[Shrew]

Was the engine running hot? What was the justification for replacing the heat exchanger and oil cooler? What was the justification for replacing the water pump? I would expect something like "obvious evidence of leaking of the raw pump observed" This list would seem like nonsense. I agree that these are service items I would do when I bought an older boat. However, peace of mind PM is different than a survey, which should be a 'break/fix' model. Either the item is working or it is not.

Lacking evidence of problems is very suspect. Items should be working. There is no explicit or implicit expectation of them being NEW.

 

[SteveK]

Too many to list, but here are some of them: stbd. engine,replace heat exchanger, replace engine oil cooler, replace engine muffler, etc. Port engine, replace heat exchanger end cap, replace oil cooler, replace seawater pump, replace exhaust muffler, replace exhaust hose, replace exhaust pipe elbow, etc. The buyer brought along a mechanic on the sea trial. He has worked on the boat before. The shop is known for "churning", i.e.,finding work where there is no work.

Thanks, I do find that hard to believe a general surveyor would give a mechanical recommendation like that.

 

[Larry M]

Since the buyer paid for the survey, maybe he got the preliminary report and then asked the surveyor what the cost of the “repairs” are? A negotiating tool? How bad do you want to sell Ancora? I don’t see anything unethical.

 

[BruceK]

Most boat owners have items they keep an eye on. Still serviceable but not forever. Allowing something to repair/replace items like that is not unreasonable but it`s a question of how much, between 0% and 100%. Sounds like the buyer went for 100%.
What actual advice the buyer has about repair replacement is unknown. Ancora is right to seek substantiation. It`s a used boat, not a new one,with no reasonable expectation everything is in new condition.

 

[Diep]

Try not to be chapped. Depending on the validity of the observations, and the relative expectation that they could have or should have been expected going in, I might be too.

At the end of the day its a sales negotiation. They made an offer and you had the opportunity to accept, reject or counter. Same goes in this phase. If the adjustments are completely bogus in your mind you can reject their adjustment. If there is some level of reasonableness you can counter and maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

The buyer has invested in the survey and still wants to move forward so you can have some confidence they are serious and you have some leverage if that is the way the buyer wants to do the deal. Just don't go pissing in the well first thing.

 

[SeaDogAK]

A signed purchase agreement is just a starting point for negotiations. The survey and mechanical inspection is part of that process. Any buyer is going to use the survey and a list of repairs as a bargaining chip to get the price down. As the seller, you’re free to say no, and tell the buyer whether you’re willing to come down and if so by how much, based on what you think you can get if you put the boat back on the market.

Some buyers don’t understand that a used boat will have some things on it that are nearing their useful life. That’s why used boats cost less than new boats. That doesn’t mean they should get to take the replacement/repair cost for them off the price.

 

[socalrider]

At the end of the day its a sales negotiation. They made an offer and you had the opportunity to accept, reject or counter. Same goes in this phase. If the adjustments are completely bogus in your mind you can reject their adjustment. If there is some level of reasonableness you can counter and maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

This exactly.

I guarantee you that 99% of the boats out there could use $24k of repair work. I know mine could! I'm still gonna spend the summer cruising on her with my family.

 

[O C Diver]

There are somethings that are reasonable and some things that are not. As an example, if the end plate to the heat exchanger has dried salt below or around the gasket, the gasket needs to be replaced. That salt comes from a leak, whether it's currently leaking or not is irrelevant.

The above is true for a seawater pump. If you have dried salt on the pump,whether it's currently leaking or not, it should be rebuilt or replaced.

However, replacing an engine heat exchanger on a used boat, is based on a pressure test of the engine cooling system. If it holds pressure, it's hard to justify replacing it.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

So did the OP accept a reduced offer, and if so by how much? Or is the deal off? I hope you eventually get it sold to your satisfaction.

 

[slowgoesit]

When I sell a used boat, the advertised price is a reflection of the current condition of the boat, with all it's positive features, and with all it's warts, if it has any. If someone wants to start negotiating price downwards based on wear, or use reflected on a . . . well, USED boat, I have no problem with that, with one caveat.
If the "buyer" wants discounts on a USED boat, because it has been USED, than in the negotiations, we will start from the price of a similar BRAND NEW BOAT, and go from there. Who knows, if his negotiations are successful, he may even get it down to the asking price!

Note: If a survey, or walk-thru identifies legitimate issues with my boat that I was UNAWARE OF, than that's a legitimate area for negotiations.

 

[lwarden]

I think there are some grey areas, especially with heat exchangers and aftercoolers. If there are no recent records (< 3 years) of maintenance of these items I can see the buyer wanting a discount for the chance they will need to be replaced. This is especially the case with Cummins aftercoolers which are notorious for self-destructing if not serviced. I know I would want to add a big discount if an aftercooler was not serviced on a Cummins in 3 years. Raw water pumps are a different story, but has Ted said, if there is any evidence of salt or leaking I would want replacement to either be part of the deal, or a discount applied for a new pump(s). Oil coolers are probably also on this list if old and if they have not been serviced or are found to have fully depleted anodes.

Bottom line, if the boat hasn't been serviced and kept up on maintenance then I can see a pretty big bill that the buyer would want to hedge for in the purchase price. I don't know if this is the case with the OP's boat, just making a point.

 

[psneeld]

Aren't many discounts for any item on a used boat accounted for in the asking price? I say yes if the asking price was fair to begin with.

Some boats with a lot of projects and a low price may be perfect for a "project boat". With a fair asking price, a buyer shouldn't think that just because a surveyor reports some obvious things that should be done (eventually) and gives a professional repair/replacement estimate doesn't mean the buyer has solid footing to reduce the price further. If a bunch of comparables all do have relatively new equipment and records, then sure.... but what if the asking price is already taken into account a lot of aged equipment or deferred maintenance.

So....at what point is there ever a "fair price"?

Seems that it is the rare occurrence where a really experienced seller meets a really experienced buyer, maybe has a really good broker and surveyor and they all agree on everything.

There is an old expression about a hot place freezing over that comes to mind.

 

[Larry M]

When we sold Hobo we had a disclosure section. These items were not negotiable. During the survey we found the rudder bearing was seized and a few other items. We paid for those and a few others to get the deal done but we didn’t budge on the disclosure items.

Disclosure

This is a 34-year old boat; she's been very well maintained, but she's still a 34 year old boat. Hobo has acne, or in boat parlance, blisters. The hull blisters were there when we bought her and have not changed (quarter-sized or smaller). New blisters have appeared on the fashion plates. Thinking the fashion plates would be full of water, I took one apart and found it to be completely dry. Go figure.

The starboard deck outside the pilot house doors is soft. I blame the deck prism in the guest stateroom, heating and expanding in the sun…

The propane locker is original from the manufacturer. It does does not meet current ABYC guidelines.…

The engine…

 

[slowgoesit]

Another option would be to negotiate an agreement with the buyer to reimburse the buyer for specifically defined repair items, once the work has been done, and to an agreed $$ amount, upon proof of the work, and upon receipt of the paid bills, for a period of, say 12 months from the date of closing.

This would eliminate the buyers who make a huge deal of "flaws", demanding price concessions, but in reality, realize that the issues are nothing but demands to reduce the price, and while never intending on doing the actual "repairs".

 

[ancora]

The broker called and wanted to know if we would make an "adjustment" on the selling price, I told him no.

Another option would be to negotiate an agreement with the buyer to reimburse the buyer for specifically defined repair items, once the work has been done, and to an agreed $$ amount, upon proof of the work, and upon receipt of the paid bills, for a period of, say 12 months from the date of closing.

This would eliminate the buyers who make a huge deal of "flaws", demanding price concessions, but in reality, realize that the issues are nothing but demands to reduce the price, and while never intending on doing the actual "repairs".

The buyer is a checkwriter, who knows nothing about the mechanical end. Whatever the mechanic put down in the estimate, to him, is gospel. A DIYer would see right through it.

 

[slowgoesit]

Keep your head up. There are serious buyers out there, and you don't need to waste you time with this schmuck.

 

[TBill36]

The boat I presently own was turned down by the prospective buyer because of the survey. The surveyor had interpreted conditions with incorrect conclusions, incorrectly used a moisture meter with stated results, and generally ruined the sale. He had all the certifications and a very impressive website and stated background. I purchased the survey and promptly had several insurance companies deny coverage even though I addressed all the issues. I even had him resurvey and rewrite the survey, but the damage was done as far as insurance was concerned. Unfortunately, the surveyors word seems to be gospel and there's not much you can do about it.