Purchase dilemma - keel delamination

[isophase]

So I'm in the process of buying a mid-80's Taiwan trawler with a solid FRP hull. Things were ticking right along until the surveyor found several square feet of delamination along both sides of the aft end of the keel. It's a not-subtle thud vs a nice solid tap elsewhere. There's even a spot where a bit of water dribbles out when hit. Looks like the keel hit something and it wasn't repaired. There's exposed glass at the lower aft edge of the keel. Moisture readings are elevated right up to the chine but delamination is confined (for now) to a portion of the keel. Hull is otherwise solid.

Aside from that, mechanical inspection and survey check out pretty well. Given that the issue was not present/not found in the previous survey ca 2021, not disclosed to the selling broker, and not at all obvious (though next time I will check!) it seems reasonable to think of this as major new information. It seems appropriate grounds for a price adjustment, since there is going to be boating time lost and money spent vs my (I think) reasonable expectation when we first signed the deal.

Surveyor says it can probably be used for a season or two but will deteriorate and needs to be addressed soon (level-2 finding not level-1). FWIW this is a freshwater boat, so it will be spending half its time out of the water anyway. Options will be launch late or haul early for repair, or get it done indoors & heated at extra cost.

What I do know:
I can and will DIY lots of stuff, but this is well beyond.
Professional help will cost a fair bit and I need to get estimates.
If insurance balks at the survey report, I'm out.

Two questions:
(1) Thoughts on the problem itself - in principle how bad is delamination on the keel? Anyone dealt with this? How to guesstimate cost?
(2) Thoughts on how to proceed (or not) with the transaction? Adjust price by a fraction of repair cost? Seems serious but not "run, run away!" bad

Would love some thoughts from those who've been to this rodeo a few times.

I'll be away sailing much of next week so might not reply promptly but thanks in advance for all replies.

 

[Mambo42]

I have not dealt with this, but when it is sweet water you know that wood will rot. If it would be salt water then the core would not rot (that much).
In all honesty, unless you want to give yourself a lot of work, I would simpy walk away. If this is what you already find now you most likely are going to find other things. Prices are not going down, so the longer you wait the more expensive it will become.
I am pretty sure there are other boats out there that don't have this problem, so unless you are an experienced boat builder I would call it quits.

 

[psneeld]

Haven't seen many TT's that didn't drip from a crack in the keel someplace.

I wish my severe delamination was on the keel instead of a 6X6 foot area under the stbd fuel tank on my old Albin 40.

If the moisture was confined to near the keel area, out of all the things that could be bad on a TT from the 80's, that would be pretty low on my list of things to worry about. I bet it is probably a pretty easy fix. But with the moisture up to the chine, sounds like the problem I had.

Even though there is no delamination up to the chine, you might still have severe hydrolysis like I had.

Are there blisters around that whole area? Or any that have been repaired in the last year or two?

If so, with what I know now about delamination, hydrolysis and blisters.... I would walk away. Many might think they have been to that rodeo or they may say don't worry it's just cosmetic...but some here will attest to my being to that rodeo and though I could fix it myself for not much money, I still feel the bull gored me.

 

[isophase]

No blisters noted, surveyor was pretty positive about the condition of the hull except for the delamination just on the keel. Maybe being freshwater for most of its life except for one Loop helps.
There is layer upon layer of ablative bottom paint so I'm thinking that probably rules out or at least would make it obvious if blister repair had been done.

 

[psneeld]

There is really only one way to determine the extent of the damage.

Grinding or coring the hull in necessary places.

On my boat, NO delamination was reported by the surveyor but there was blistering. When I started grinding, a lot of glass was hydrolyzed and under that furl tank as I ground through six layers of roving and mat, a lot of water came almost flowing out of that area.

Granted my boat was stored in the worst possible situation, warm salt water.... I can't say whether fresh water couldn't do the same.

In the 70/80s there were a lot of resin problems and many lead to blistering and hydrolysis issues I believe. So if you are looking at a boat made with poor resin material, fresh water may have only helped, not necessarily stopped damage.

 

[Mac2]

Is it a single or twin? If it’s a single engine I might be concerned with a crack in the shaft log as a source for water ingress to the aft keel.

 

[psneeld]

Is it a single or twin? If it’s a single engine I might be concerned with a crack in the shaft log as a source for water ingress to the aft keel.

Many 80's TT's have breached shaft logs that cause leaks into the keel. That alone doesn't mean serious delamination or even need correction in the next decade or more from my experience.

Some keels get water in them just from leak downs into them from bilge water making it's way down.

 

[SteveK]

OP you like the boat enough to be on the fence about buying it due to this keel issue. Is the boat in a yard where this work is able to be done?
I would ask the seller to get a quote to fix it. Once done the two of you can decide if you are still buying the boat as is or when work is completed at seller cost.

 

[sunchaser]

OP you like the boat enough to be on the fence about buying it due to this keel issue. Is the boat in a yard where this work is able to be done?
I would ask the seller to get a quote to fix it. Once done the two of you can decide if you are still buying the boat as is or when work is completed at seller cost.

This! Surveys are done for a reason.

 

[isophase]

OP you like the boat enough to be on the fence about buying it due to this keel issue. Is the boat in a yard where this work is able to be done?
I would ask the seller to get a quote to fix it. Once done the two of you can decide if you are still buying the boat as is or when work is completed at seller cost.

Investigating if the work can be done at the yard, hope to have an estimate soon. I've made inquiries with two other yards as well but they're understandably hesitant to say much about a boat they haven't seen. And in any case my understanding is you'd start cutting away and see what you find.

As far as the seller... reasonable suggestion but unlikely. Boat's been untouched the whole prior season while up for sale and he lives many hours' drive away. Did the Loop and done with it, looking to get cash out not put cash in. I do like the boat but I'm not willing to do his job for him for free/cheap if he wants to be hands-off.

 

[isophase]

Many 80's TT's have breached shaft logs that cause leaks into the keel. That alone doesn't mean serious delamination or even need correction in the next decade or more from my experience.

Some keels get water in them just from leak downs into them from bilge water making it's way down.

@Mac2 @psneeld She's a twin. After the surveyor pointed it out, it does seem quite plausibly due to damage at the aft end of the keel. Pretty sure it hit something, and there's exposed glass fibers.

 

[mvweebles]

This is the type of thing that cannot be accurately determined before digging in so risk is relatively unknown. Does the prop turn freely on the hard? If the shaft log and tube need work, it could get expensive.

Seller won't want to return to market especially since he doesn't live nearby. You can likely be aggressive in asking for a survey credit for an unknown repair inckuding a risk premium. Or he can have it repaired and you'll buy it as originally offered (assuming it's done professionally and completed in a timely manner).

Good luck.

Peter

 

[BruceK]

isophase, must have been a good hit to fracture and expose fibreglass matting. I hope the surveyor had a good look inside after the discovery for any consequent damage. Twins means no compromise of shafts etc which is good, if as I assume the keel protected the running gear as designed. Cannot see an insurer taking it on as is, without at least a repair guarantee in a fixed time, but it`s worth a chat as to how to approach it. I`d be reluctant to let the seller arrange repair, there`s uncertainty how well it gets done, unless you supervise regularly as work proceeds. But seller repair could yield a boat to buy in insurer acceptable condition if you can`t make a deal with the insurer.

 

[isophase]

This is the type of thing that cannot be accurately determined before digging in so risk is relatively unknown. Does the prop turn freely on the hard? If the shaft log and tube need work, it could get expensive.

Seller won't want to return to market especially since he doesn't live nearby. You can likely be aggressive in asking for a survey credit for an unknown repair inckuding a risk premium. Or he can have it repaired and you'll buy it as originally offered (assuming it's done professionally and completed in a timely manner).

Good luck.

Peter

Shaft and cutlass bearings are fine per both mechanic and surveyor's inspection. Prop shafts turn fine. I think the shaft log question was a theory floated by @Mac2 as to source of water on a single-screw... not applicable here with twins and where we have probable cause (apparent grounding damage at aft end of keel).

I was thinking along similar lines about survey credit and who takes the risk premium to fix it. It would be hard to scope the job until the thing is actually cut open. If that's post-purchase, I have to manage the project and take the risk of whatever is found. My read is the seller doesn't have the appetite to do it. That means he's not in a great position to insist on a high valuation. So he can either take reduced cash now, or go back to market and wait for a less-capable surveyor or a hasty buyer. Especially with a jittery economy that seems like a bad bet. There are also two other trawlers of comparable size, price, and age on the market in the immediate area from the same broker.

Just trying to validate that I'm not being overly aggressive or having unreasonable expectations of what is a nearly 40-year-old boat. I think that's been soundly answered, I'm not feeling crazy.

 

[isophase]

isophase, must have been a good hit to fracture and expose fibreglass matting. I hope the surveyor had a good look inside after the discovery for any consequent damage. Twins means no compromise of shafts etc which is good, if as I assume the keel protected the running gear as designed. Cannot see an insurer taking it on as is, without at least a repair guarantee in a fixed time, but it`s worth a chat as to how to approach it. I`d be reluctant to let the seller arrange repair, there`s uncertainty how well it gets done, unless you supervise regularly as work proceeds. But seller repair could yield a boat to buy in insurer acceptable condition if you can`t make a deal with the insurer.

The surveyor did thorough soundings all around the hull and gave the structural members (stringers etc) a good going-over visually and with moisture meter. Prop shaft alignment we'll see at the sea trial if it we get that far. So far for out-of-water everything seemed in order except for the keel delamination and the moisture readings that seem linked to it.

Insurance is going to be a make-or-break item. They require a copy of the survey, naturally, and if I can't get it insured it's going to be a walk-away. If insurability requires completed work that's absolutely got to be a big survey credit to get a deal done. As noted earlier, the seller does not seem to have an appetite to put work or money in, so I suspect it's either survey credit or he takes his chances waiting for a "greater fool".

 

[Comodave]

If it were me and I really wanted the boat then I would ask for a substantial discount for an unknown repair. Then I would do the glass work. Doing glass work isn’t rocket science but it can be hard physical work. But by DIY you will save a lot of the cost.

 

[SteveK]

Again, If the boat repaired is what you want get 2-3 quotes, agree on who repairs, agree on the discounted price. Then agree to a contingency holdback of 1/3 of the quoted work for anything found related damages supported by the contractor written report. Third party holds the contingency, any unused return to seller.
You want the boat and the owners wants to sell.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Looks to me like you have an absentee, motivated seller and you like the boat.
My offer would be to buy the boat but would need 2-3x estimated repair costs in escrow with anything left over going back to the seller.
If not, there are a lot of boats out there. Don’t fall in love until after it’s yours.

 

[isophase]

@Uisce Beo @SteveK - Interesting idea about holding funds in escrow. Something to add into the negotiating mix. It highlights that we're talking about allocating risk as well as money. Thank you.

@Comodave I'm generally inclined to DIY but it's just not something I can take on at the moment. Would be a big project moving the boat, supporting it to get access to the keel, drying it out, etc. I've got young kids and the boat is a 3hr drive away. As masochistic as I am that's over the limit.

 

[mvweebles]

@Comodave I'm generally inclined to DIY but it's just not something I can take on at the moment. Would be a big project moving the boat, supporting it to get access to the keel, drying it out, etc. I've got young kids and the boat is a 3hr drive away. As masochistic as I am that's over the limit.

Keep in mind that if you were to DIY (assuming the yard allows it ---- and allows you to stay aboard in the yard), you'd accumilate lay-days and you'd likely have to at least purchase bottom paint from them at Shylock prices. Savings are apt to be much lower than expected

You and the seller share the same situation and at some level, your interests are aligned: you both want the boat sold, and you both recognize there is a repair that should not be ignored. And you are both located some distance away so the hassle-factor is greater than normal.

Topic of how to deal with a defect found at purchase inspection comes up fairly frequently on TF. Where the defect is fairly well known and there's a low risk of scope-creep (e.g. instrument is not reading, stove is not working, etc.) reducing the final price (i.e. survey credit) makes sense. But many times the defect is unclear - questionable oil analysis, transmission making noise, drive shaft vibration, etc. And then there are the ones that could become much more involved - replacing fuel tanks are infamous for scope-creep costs. At the unknown end of the continuum, it makes more sense to have the seller make the repair (with professional verification) than get a survey credit because the risk of cost overruns is just too great. Honestly, that would probably tank the deal because it's more than the seller is willing to accept, especially coming off a historic seller's market where recent price-points are fondly remembered by sellers.

Please keep us posted on what you decide and how this goes.

Peter

 

[jleonard]

When I bought my 83 Albin 40, the surveyor didnt find anything but in the spring the keel started oozing water just ahead of the prop from several locations. I knew the keel was cement filled, so after several unsuccessful attempts to patch the leaks, I drilled a hole in the bottom of the keel.
All the water then came out that hole, so I was able to glass up the previous leaks. Then I tapped the hole for 3/8 npt and put a pipe plug with a recessed allen head in the hole ( along with copious amounts of 5200).
I found the source of the leak to be 2 screws securing a bilge pump had gone thru the hull into the keel cavity. Easy fix.

At haulout I would remove the plug and let the water drain. After 2 or 3 seasons no more water came out so the plug stayed in the keel all gouped up with 5200..
Never leaked again.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I would worry about further damage due to freezing over the next winter. assume it has spent at least 1 winter with the damage. .Nobody knows how much water is in keel or surrounding areas. The freeze/thaw cycle is bad ,bad, bad for fiberglass .It should really be addressed and repaired ....by current owner or new potential owner

 

[OCEANA]

@Uisce Beo @SteveK - Interesting idea about holding funds in escrow. Something to add into the negotiating mix. It highlights that we're talking about allocating risk as well as money. Thank you.

@Comodave I'm generally inclined to DIY but it's just not something I can take on at the moment. Would be a big project moving the boat, supporting it to get access to the keel, drying it out, etc. I've got young kids and the boat is a 3hr drive away. As masochistic as I am that's over the limit.

Considering you have a three hour drive, young kids and no predilection for fiberglass work, I would say hard pass. Boats take up enough time and money when they are not problematic. Find one that will enhance your life, not pull you away from it. It's easy to get really excited about a boat. I do it a lot. Don't let that get you here.

 

[Deckape]

Walk away before you get a boat that break you and your sprit

 

[Moonfish]

I met these guys at the Seattle Boat Show. They dry out wet cores and stringers for less than half the cost of traditional methods (cut, remove, replace). Never knew they existed, or that their process even existed. Perhaps it's an option for you.

Home – Dryboat International®

The Dryboat International® process is a patented, cutting-edge solution designed to dry a wet boat and restore it quickly back to the water.

dryboat.com

 

[88FuHwa]

This is the type of thing that cannot be accurately determined before digging in so risk is relatively unknown. Does the prop turn freely on the hard? If the shaft log and tube need work, it could get expensive.

Seller won't want to return to market especially since he doesn't live nearby. You can likely be aggressive in asking for a survey credit for an unknown repair inckuding a risk premium. Or he can have it repaired and you'll buy it as originally offered (assuming it's done professionally and completed in a timely manner).

Good luck.

Peter

The shaft and the tube were replaced on our single screw 1988 TT because the tunnel had sprung a leak and flooded the bilge. It was one in Sausalito by the KKMI yard and it cost us $24,000. That was 5 years ago.

 

[GeoStr]

No blisters noted, surveyor was pretty positive about the condition of the hull except for the delamination just on the keel.

Then if it's the boat you like, and surveyor is accredited, negociate price and move on. The GB 32 we purchased recently had the previous owner repair keel delam and a few blisters. I have DIY'd sailboat hull/grid delam... it's messy & hard work, but not rocket science. Keel delam is DIY if you are able and have epoxy experience, otherwise write the check and enjoy the boat you like. You came this far... no boat in this price range will be perfect.
Good Luck !

 

[isophase]

Wow, quite the diversity of opinions and great to hear them all out.

@88FuHwa it's twin-screw and the shaft logs are well away from the affected area based on tapping and moisture readings, so should be a lot simpler than your scenario. Sure hope so. Shafts, struts, cutless bearings, stringers, and ER bilge all looked/sounded/measured fine to surveyor and mechanic.

@mvweebles - ideally yes, seller would take care of it before sale but that just isn't in the cards. I'm pretty sure that would be the end of the deal as you say. I like the boat and think it's a decent price so acknowledging nothing's perfect and working to move it forward as @GeoStr says.

I got one estimate from a guy who did an on-site examination with soundings and moisture meter. He gave me a base case and noted cost could be up to 2x if the situation is worse than anticipated once opened up. Seemed reasonable and honest. Another yard basically validated that range from afar with a non-binding ballpark based on survey report, pics, dimensions, and description. Took the midpoint of the scenarios to be the cost and used that to agree on an offset with the seller.

Am I taking on risk? Yes, but so is anyone buying an older boat. We left room in the budget for work so a cost overrun would be not-preferred but not a disaster.

Could I have squeezed the seller harder given the economic climate we're in? Maybe. Probably. It's not my style to push the other side to the very limit in a negotiation.

Anyhow, sea trial is coming up. If all goes well we'll close the deal, haul, get the repair done, and be back in the water in June/early July. To be continued...

 

[GeoStr]

Well Done. Enjoy !!
We take bigger risks every day crossing the street. And yes, totally agree about keeping the seller on board. I am just drafting an email to my GB's PO regarding things he has sent me 6 months after the sale.

 

[rgano]

If the sale goes through, it would be nice to come back to this thread for a six-month update.