Propane Tanks Grand Banks

[Flip66]

1989 GB 36 I have two horizontal propane tanks for the stove and oven. One tank has a valve that seems like it is starting to fail. Won't take propane in, etc. Propane place said they can no longer order the old fashioned QCC valves because of a law requiring a float valve that won't work in a horizontal tank. We are exempted from this law, but I am having difficulty finding a replacement valve. Anybody have any luck with this?

 

[tiltrider1]

While I am pro propane for cooking on a boat, it is not something to take lightly. When were those tanks last inspected by a qualified tech? This is not an area were you should cut corners. Those tanks look like they are beyond their certification date.

 

[SoWhat]

It may not be just the OPD valve. the tank may be expired and needs recertification. New horizontal tanks retail at $130. You should have room to store them vertically.
Far cheaper and safer to just buy a new vertical one. ~$50-$60. You can then exchange them at Home Depot for ~$30.

 

[Choices]

We got a pair recertified for $8.00@.

New ones are around $200. Carbon fiber is more.

 

[Cigatoo]

Our tanks (GB 36 Classic) are under the port side flybridge settee. They stand vertically under the aft cover. I can get a picture later on if you would like.

 

[Flip66]

Our tanks (GB 36 Classic) are under the port side flybridge settee. They stand vertically under the aft cover. I can get a picture later on if you would like.

I would really appreciate a picture. Ours are horizontal under the same settee.

 

[Flip66]

I would really appreciate a picture. Ours are horizontal under the same settee.

Also, what type and size are using? The only thing that I think will fit are the 11 lb "squat" style tanks that are about 13" tall. Is that what you have? Thanks.

 

[Cigatoo]

I would really appreciate a picture. Ours are horizontal under the same settee.

I’ll get you a pic today.

 

[Choices]

Ours lay sideways.

Certifier said they very well built, should never have issues.

 

[Blissboat]

While I am pro propane for cooking on a boat, it is not something to take lightly. When were those tanks last inspected by a qualified tech? This is not an area were you should cut corners. Those tanks look like they are beyond their certification date.

Agree. New propane tanks are an investment in safety and peace of mind. In that sense, a cheap investment.

 

[Cigatoo]

I’ll get you a pic today.

Sorry to be late on this.

 

[tiltrider1]

Sorry to be late on this.
View attachment 130586View attachment 130587View attachment 130588

This is what concerns me when we discuss propane. What I see may or may not be a safe propane system. It appears to meet the definition of outside the boat but I can’t be sure from the picture. It certainly does not meet the standard for a propane locker(not necessary if is outside the boat). Being outside the boat is not good enough, there must be no way for vented gas to find its way back into the boat such as an open window that vented gas can enter.

Next, there may or may not be an auto shut off solenoid, I can’t see one in the picture. I am uncomfortable having propane on a boat with out sniffers connected an auto shut off system

Finally, How does the propane hose exit the locker and enter the boat. This is to easy of a way for propane to enter a boat even when the locker is vented.

Again, I am not dishing on this set up, I am pointing out how many things need to be considered with propane onboard.

 

[Cigatoo]

I have inspected the setup using my own dumb logic. The system was installed by an ABS certified tech. (For better or worse)

What I see may or may not be a safe propane system. It appears to meet the definition of outside the boat but I can’t be sure from the picture. It certainly does not meet the standard for a propane locker(not necessary if is outside the boat). Being outside the boat is not good enough, there must be no way for vented gas to find its way back into the boat such as an open window that vented gas can enter.

Propane is stored under the flybridge settee. If the tanks leak I would assume that the gas would roll off of the flybridge in the rain gutters and over the stern of the boat just as rain water does. The gutters run along side of the tanks (at a low point) under the settee.

Next, there may or may not be an auto shut off solenoid, I can’t see one in the picture. I am uncomfortable having propane on a boat with out sniffers connected an auto shut off system.

No sniffers presently. Manual/ electric shutoff switch in the galley that shuts off the propane valve. The shutoff valve is under the forward part of the locker. (Not visible in the pictures) To turn on the propane one must open the tanks, turn on the breaker, and then flip the switch to open the valve.


Finally, How does the propane hose exit the locker and enter the boat. This is to easy of a way for propane to enter a boat even when the locker is vented.

Propane hose connects to a copper tube (After the shut off valve) that runs down the side between the exterior and interior wall. Connects to a second hose that connects to a Force Ten stove.

 

[SoWhat]

What I see may or may not be a safe propane system. It appears to meet the definition of outside the boat but I can’t be sure from the picture. It certainly does not meet the standard for a propane locker(not necessary if is outside the boat).
Next, there may or may not be an auto shut off solenoid, I can’t see one in the picture. I am uncomfortable having propane on a boat with out sniffers connected an auto shut off

You are correct in your observations but OP's 1989 GB 36 is not going to meet current ABYC standards. If the boat has not blown up yet, it probably won't. Condition of hoses is probably the critical safety issue.

When I upgraded my 1985 installation I added shutoff solenoid, sniffers, etc but I couldn't meet locker with outside vent specification. I simply turn the valve off when done. I would characterize the upgrade as a simple and inexpensive process.

 

[Comodave]

I haven’t looked at the recommendations lately but I thought that the hose run was supposed to be one continuous run not several hoses.

 

[Comodave]

You are correct in your observations but OP's 1989 GB 36 is not going to meet current ABYC standards. If the boat has not blown up yet, it probably won't. Condition of hoses is probably the critical safety issue.

When I upgraded my 1985 installation I added shutoff solenoid, sniffers, etc but I couldn't meet locker with outside vent specification. I simply turn the valve off when done. I would characterize the upgrade as a simple and inexpensive process.

But does your insurance company care?

 

[wkearney99]

If I may make a slight hijack of the thread here, is there a way to tell what the size is of the tanks in an Eastbay 47FB? I get the impression the ones I've got are, if not original to the boat, certainly not as new as I'd like. But I've not seen this particular size/orientation in my searches online (or I've just missed the obvious).

It has a control solenoid and leak sensor system. The locker here is vented overboard and the teak lid over it fits very tightly. The locker itself is outside on the aft cockpit and that cabinet is also vented (though the tank locker is sealed from it). Where the line exits the locker is sealed. The hoses are also old enough that I'd likely replace them too. The way the setup connects to the tank requires using wrenches to connect. I wouldn't mind something twist-on like a regular setup. I don't think there's room to accommodate a dual-connection setup with a selector valve.

Do these markings stamped into the tank top collar tell me the size/type/capacity?

 

[AKDoug]

Aluminum tanks are good almost forever, you just have them recertified and the valves replaced (if you can), my 7 gallon horizontal tanks were $450 each, but don't corrode. The aged appearance of the aluminum does nothing to weaken the integrity of the tank.

 

[wkearney99]

Aluminum tanks are good almost forever, you just have them recertified and the valves replaced (if you can), my 7 gallon horizontal tanks were $450 each, but don't corrode. The aged appearance of the aluminum does nothing to weaken the integrity of the tank.

Sure, but lets just say that if I was interested in replacing them, what is this size/shape called? I've seen all kinds of other sizes and shaped containers, but haven't run across this kind.

And does anyone know of a source around Annapolis that would 'recertify' and/or otherwise 'recondition' the ones I've got?

 

[Porgy]

If I may make a slight hijack of the thread here, is there a way to tell what the size is of the tanks in an Eastbay 47FB?

Do these markings stamped into the tank top collar tell me the size/type/capacity?

Size can be determined by the “WC 23.6#” (Water capacity in pounds.) It also looks like it has a TW (Tare Weight) of 9.5# although Manchester says their current version is 9.4#,

Looks like a Manchester 10 lb. From Manchester’s website.

 

[Flip66]

Thanks much for the photos. That is the installation I need. Do you know what size/make your tanks are? How tall are they? So far the only tanks I can find that would fit are called "squat 11 lbs."

 

[Coast Guard Dave]

Propane on Recreational Vessels

The Coast Guard to the best of my knowledge now requires recreational vessels to meet the same requires for Liquid Propane storage , installation and operation as a UPV (Uninspected Passenger Vessel) aka 6 pack or charter vessel. The following CFR covers it : 46 CFR § 184.240 - Gas systems.. It used to be that ABYC recommended the standard but it was not a law. Now the CFR supports the ABYC in the law.
I have a 86 Trawler. The propane tanks were under the upper helm station. If there had been a leak, propane would have been exposed to lots of electrical connections and marine Nav equipment . The liquid propane could have run down electrical raceways into the interior of the boat . In hindsight, what was the designer of the boat thinking ? I changed the installation by purchasing a commercial propane locker from Defender Marine. I elected to do this since it came with all the fittings to connect the tanks and vent a spill onto the upper deck where it would blown over board never being near a intake vent or thru hull. I then purchased a propane extension hose and ran it from the locker back to the gas line running to the stove. To do it 100% right, the hose should run directly to the stove. I was able to reuse the on/off switch in the galley that controls the solenoid at the tank in locker. There is also an in-line pressure guage in the locker to help make one aware if there is a leak. I know this is a long reply but as others have mentioned propane is a very serious threat to the survival of people and vessel if not installed and maintained correctly . I believe it would be hard to sell a boat today if it does meet this CFR. Just my two cents

 

[clburti]

Flip66, Industrial forklifts that run on propane use horizontal tanks. Any place locally that services them should be able to tell you where you can obtain replacement valves.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The ABYC propane installation standard is among the shortest in the book, and among the most frequently violated.

LP lockers can be integral with the vessel, under a settee for instance, provided, among other things, they are top opening and fully gas-tight to the hull interior (this one looks like it has louvers, that's prohibited). There can be no unions or valves in the LP line between the tank and the appliance, with one exception, a transition from pipe to hose as allowed for gimballed stoves. The locker drain must allow gas to flow overboard and discharge away from openings to the hull, portlights or vents for instance.

The requirements, and my recommendations, are summarized here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LPGas169-02.pdf

I recently conducted an inspection on a trawler, with the owner. When I opened the LP locker I got a faint whiff of gas. I suggested we conduct a leak test. He said, "how do we do that?". "With the leak detector, otherwise known as a pressure gauge", I responded. He was a savvy owner, very mechanically competent, but he had no idea the pressure gauge was designed for this, and only this purpose (contrary to popular belief, it does not measure gas quantity, LP maintains the same pressure regardless of volume).

Using the pressure gauge you should leak test your system monthly. In this case, the gauge could be seen to drop almost immediately, it was a serious leak. Using soapy water, however, we found no leaks in the LP locker, we did find a leak at a valve in the stove top. His wife said to me, "I've bene telling him I smelled something like garbage in this area".

There was a sniffer sensor mounted under the stove, however, it wasn't sounding, I suspect because instead of of being mounted on the deck it was mounted on the bulkhead a couple of inches above the deck. Sensors should also be tested regularly, by allowing gas from a butane lighter (without the flame) to flow into them. I like to have a sensor under the stove and another in the LP locker, again as low as possible and where they can be accessed for testing.

 

[wkearney99]

...we did find a leak at a valve in the stove top. His wife said to me, "I've been telling him I smelled something like garbage in this area".

Yikes! That could have turned out badly. We always keep the valves off at the tank unless it's in-use.

Does the butane trick work with most sensors?

 

[Bmarler]

The ABYC propane installation standard is among the shortest in the book, and among the most frequently violated.

LP lockers can be integral with the vessel, under a settee for instance, provided, among other things, they are top opening and fully gas-tight to the hull interior (this one looks like it has louvers, that's prohibited). There can be no unions or valves in the LP line between the tank and the appliance, with one exception, a transition from pipe to hose as allowed for gimballed stoves. The locker drain must allow gas to flow overboard and discharge away from openings to the hull, portlights or vents for instance.

The requirements, and my recommendations, are summarized here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LPGas169-02.pdf

I recently conducted an inspection on a trawler, with the owner. When I opened the LP locker I got a faint whiff of gas. I suggested we conduct a leak test. He said, "how do we do that?". "With the leak detector, otherwise known as a pressure gauge", I responded. He was a savvy owner, very mechanically competent, but he had no idea the pressure gauge was designed for this, and only this purpose (contrary to popular belief, it does not measure gas quantity, LP maintains the same pressure regardless of volume).

Using the pressure gauge you should leak test your system monthly. In this case, the gauge could be seen to drop almost immediately, it was a serious leak. Using soapy water, however, we found no leaks in the LP locker, we did find a leak at a valve in the stove top. His wife said to me, "I've bene telling him I smelled something like garbage in this area".

There was a sniffer sensor mounted under the stove, however, it wasn't sounding, I suspect because instead of of being mounted on the deck it was mounted on the bulkhead a couple of inches above the deck. Sensors should also be tested regularly, by allowing gas from a butane lighter (without the flame) to flow into them. I like to have a sensor under the stove and another in the LP locker, again as low as possible and where they can be accessed for testing.

interesting read, thanks.
i'd guess there aren't many fully compliant installations out there. while i thought i was pretty good with mine, i didn't realize there was a 20 inch rule for distance to openings in the vessel. i'll need to doublecheck that. also didn't really think through the storage for extra and spent tanks. up to now they've been stored inside the portuguese bridge. i might need to put a dedicated locker up on the boat deck for them.

 

[Comodave]

interesting read, thanks.
i'd guess there aren't many fully compliant installations out there. while i thought i was pretty good with mine, i didn't realize there was a 20 inch rule for distance to openings in the vessel. i'll need to doublecheck that. also didn't really think through the storage for extra and spent tanks. up to now they've been stored inside the portuguese bridge. i might need to put a dedicated locker up on the boat deck for them.

A vapor tight locker with an overboard drain, right?

 

[Comodave]

The ABYC propane installation standard is among the shortest in the book, and among the most frequently violated.

LP lockers can be integral with the vessel, under a settee for instance, provided, among other things, they are top opening and fully gas-tight to the hull interior (this one looks like it has louvers, that's prohibited). There can be no unions or valves in the LP line between the tank and the appliance, with one exception, a transition from pipe to hose as allowed for gimballed stoves. The locker drain must allow gas to flow overboard and discharge away from openings to the hull, portlights or vents for instance.

The requirements, and my recommendations, are summarized here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LPGas169-02.pdf

I recently conducted an inspection on a trawler, with the owner. When I opened the LP locker I got a faint whiff of gas. I suggested we conduct a leak test. He said, "how do we do that?". "With the leak detector, otherwise known as a pressure gauge", I responded. He was a savvy owner, very mechanically competent, but he had no idea the pressure gauge was designed for this, and only this purpose (contrary to popular belief, it does not measure gas quantity, LP maintains the same pressure regardless of volume).

Using the pressure gauge you should leak test your system monthly. In this case, the gauge could be seen to drop almost immediately, it was a serious leak. Using soapy water, however, we found no leaks in the LP locker, we did find a leak at a valve in the stove top. His wife said to me, "I've bene telling him I smelled something like garbage in this area".

There was a sniffer sensor mounted under the stove, however, it wasn't sounding, I suspect because instead of of being mounted on the deck it was mounted on the bulkhead a couple of inches above the deck. Sensors should also be tested regularly, by allowing gas from a butane lighter (without the flame) to flow into them. I like to have a sensor under the stove and another in the LP locker, again as low as possible and where they can be accessed for testing.

Thanks for the clear description, Steve. We all appreciate it.

 

[Bmarler]

A vapor tight locker with an overboard drain, right?

maybe, or maybe not. according to steve's article, disconnected tanks can be stored on deck as long as the 20 inch rule is followed and the valves are protected. this leaves some interpreting to the reader.

 

[Comodave]

maybe, or maybe not. according to steve's article, disconnected tanks can be stored on deck as long as the 20 inch rule is followed and the valves are protected. this leaves some interpreting to the reader.

In one place in the article it says tanks not in use must be stored the same as ones in use. Then in the BBQ section it says tanks may be stored on deck.

Maybe Steve can elaborate on the difference.