propane locker thoughts

[ksanders]

I already have a home style BBQ on the boat deck part of my flying bridge area. The space is completely open to the air, and the propane tank is under the BBQ, just like any other home style BBQ.

I am thinking of converting to propane for my cook stove in the galley. The flying bridge is the logical place for the propane tank.
So... Do I need to install a propane locker, which would probably be right next to the BBQ with it's open tank?

Is my BBQ tank then illegal?

I'm super curious!

 

[DDW]

My understanding was that it had to be sealed from the interior, and drain overboard (propane is heavier than air and drains like water). If your BBQ tank does that, then I can't see any objection to the galley tank next to it.

 

[SteveK]

Is there any leak thru the salon windows while closed? Can propane enter? I would think a true legal install would have a drain hose directing any stray propane to the overboard.
In any event Kevin, if you change to propane you lose your status as an electric based boat.

 

[Comodave]

Whatever you do make sure that it complies with ABYC guidelines. Get a surveyor to check it and certify that it is compliant. That way if something goes wrong you can show the insurance company that you did it correctly. Otherwise you give the insurance company a way to deny you claim.

 

[Diep]

Not sure what your current cooktop is but if the issue is cooking performance rather power/electrical... Don't go propane until you give induction a true fair shake...

With that said I think an open-air bottle would be OK. I think you would need the other stuff like shutoff solenioids, sniffers, etc. Not a bad idea to have a sniffer no matter what just in case the BBQ tank allows some to drift down and in through a door or window.

 

[Bmarler]

A bottle on the upper deck is compliant as long as it’s no closer than x feet from an opening to the boats interior.
Can’t remember the value of x right now.

 

[ksanders]

Is there any leak thru the salon windows while closed? Can propane enter? I would think a true legal install would have a drain hose directing any stray propane to the overboard.
In any event Kevin, if you change to propane you lose your status as an electric based boat.

Does that mean no BBQ's on the flying bridge? Unless the bottles are in a propane locker that has a hose and a through hull below the level of the salon windows?

 

[tiltrider1]

This is how my discussion with my survivor went.

My propane bottle sits out side the boat but is with in the canvas perimeter. Not a problem, canvas doesn’t affect the definition of out side the boat.

I have a window within 18” of where the propane could spill off the boat. Not an issue, your upper deck extends outward beyond the window. Leaking propane would not likely find its way in the window.

Final note from surveyor. Most surveyors are going to make the same call as I just made but you can bet some surveyor some where won’t agree. Interpreting ABYC is not an exact science.

 

[SteveK]

Does that mean no BBQ's on the flying bridge? Unless the bottles are in a propane locker that has a hose and a through hull below the level of the salon windows?

All I know is the surveyor was unsure enough to leave my tank under the seat install alone as it was like that from factory. But the discussion did center around if there is a leak where could it go without being directed. Since that boat I do not have the same problem to worry about.
Again that was one surveyor, previous ones did not bat an eye. So what are the rules?
Maybe this link?

 

[Duke of Patch]

My understanding was that it had to be sealed from the interior, and drain overboard (propane is heavier than air and drains like water). If your BBQ tank does that, then I can't see any objection to the galley tank next to it.

 

[Duke of Patch]

All I know is the surveyor was unsure enough to leave my tank under the seat install alone as it was like that from factory. But the discussion did center around if there is a leak where could it go without being directed. Since that boat I do not have the same problem to worry about.
Again that was one surveyor, previous ones did not bat an eye. So what are the rules?
Maybe this link?

There is a possibility that the hose and/or fittings from your tanks that goes inboard the cabin may develop a leak, flooding the interior cabin with propane over time. As a safety measure it is normal practice to shut off the propane valve leading into the cabin each time after use as a matter of safe practice, whether by a manual valve or a solenoid valve and a switch nearby the proposed stove location. This applies to RV's as well as boats. What the actual safety code is on this matter I am unaware, but I would do this on any expensive boat as insurance companies may have issue with an unsupervised gas line inboard.

 

[Delta Riverat]

A propane tank in open air on the flybridge would not even need a locker me thinks.

Would need the electric valve and proper securement plus the spec line to inside but locker, why?

 

[tiltrider1]

Regardless of where the propane bottle is placed, I would have sniffers and a shut off system installed.

 

[tiltrider1]

A propane tank in open air on the flybridge would not even need a locker me thinks.

Would need the electric valve and proper securement plus the spec line to inside but locker, why?

I can't say its safe or not just by this picture. I would need to see where leaking gas would travel and could it find its way into the boat. My guess is that there is not a path for it but I can't say that by just this picture.

 

[SteveK]

Anyone click the link in post 9? Comments

 

[Duke of Patch]

A propane tank in open air on the flybridge would not even need a locker me thinks.

Would need the electric valve and proper securement plus the spec line to inside but locker, why?

Hello, the original thread was "I am thinking of converting to propane for my cook stove in the galley." The tank outdoors is not an issue. The line leading indoors is of concern and that was what I was responding to-not the tank location. cheers

 

[Duke of Patch]

All I know is the surveyor was unsure enough to leave my tank under the seat install alone as it was like that from factory. But the discussion did center around if there is a leak where could it go without being directed. Since that boat I do not have the same problem to worry about.
Again that was one surveyor, previous ones did not bat an eye. So what are the rules?
Maybe this link?

I personally don't know where to even look for the rules on such issues. My boat has a designated sealed propane tank under seat locker on the fly-bridge without any ventilation, which puzzles me as intuitively I would expect a low level vent (as propane is heavier than air) as O ring connectors can leak. I imagine codes and safety regulations have been constantly revised since my boats production date.

 

[DDW]

Let's see if this works....

1.7.6
Installation
Cylinder And Connected Devices - Location and
1.7.6.1 LPG cylinders, cylinder valves, regulating
equipment, and safety devices shall be readily accessible,
secured for sea conditions, and protected from the weather
and against mechanical damage, and shall b e
1.7.6.1.1 installed in a ventilated location on the exterior
of the boat where escaping gases will flow directly
overboard, or,
1.7.6.1.2 if the escaping vapors will not flow directly
overboard, the cylinder shall be installed in a dedicated
locker meeting the requirements o f A-1.8.

1.8 LPG LOCKERS
1.8.1 Lockers used to contain LPG cylinders, cylinder
valves, regulating equipment and safety devices shall b e
designed to minimize the likelihood of use as a gear
storage locker and shall be,
→ 1.8.1.1
vapor tight to the hull interior, and
1.8.1.2
located above the waterline, and
1.8.1.3 constructed of, o r lined with, corrosion resistant
materials, and
1.8.1.4 shall open only from the top with
→ 1.8.1.5 a gasketed cover that shall latch tightly, and
1.8.1.6 shall be capable of being quickly and
conveniently opened without tools.
A-1
7/00
1.8.2 Installation:
> 1.8.2.1 LPG lockers shall b e installed so that the locker
opens only directly to the outside atmosphere, and
> 1.8.2.2 If a LPG locker i s installed inside a boat locker,
the LPG locker shall be located as high and as close to the
boat locker's opening a s possible in order to comply with
A-1.8.2.1.
When means of access to the LPG equipment
locker or housing is open, the cylinder valves shall be
capable of being conveniently and quickly operated, and
the system pressure gauge dials shall be fully visible.
Lockers shall be vented at the bottom by a
dedicated vent, with a minimum diameter of
component in the vent system that shall be not less than 1/2
inch (12.5 mm) inside diameter.
Locker vents shall be led outboard, without
pockets, through the hull t o a point lower than the locker
bottom and above the waterline with the boat i n the static
floating position.
1.8.6 Locker vent openings shall b e located at least 20
inches (508 mm) from any hull opening to the boat
interior.
1.8.7 LPG lockers shall not be used for storage of any
equipment other than LPG cylinders, cylinder valves,
regulating equipment, and LPG safety devices. See A-
1.8.1.
1.8.8 Storage provisions for unconnected reserve
cylinders, filled or empty, shall be the same as for the
cylinder in use.

From an old version of the ABYC, but I doubt it has changed much. You do have to have a manual or electric shutoff valve accessible from the appliance.

 

[ksanders]

Here are a couple of photos of our back deck. Sorry for the mess.

I think that this area would fall under the definition of a area that allows free escape of gasses, and no gasses that escape could enter the boat. Because of this My opinion is you do not need a propane locker. Not for the BBQ, and not for another tank next to the BBQ.

What do you think?

 

[Comodave]

It doesn’t really matter what we think. What matters is what the insurance company thinks. Or the spark that ignites the leaking propane.

 

[bglad]

What you have there really isn't a locker. It wouldn't make sense to make a hole in the hull only to discharge through the hull again. If you cover these bases with respect to your storage system, I think you would be OK:

 

[Bud]

A couple things I confronted with this issue are worth bringing up. Installing a solenoid valve to automatically shut off the propane is installed close to tank. To protect that valve and associated wiring lead me to want to enclose the tank and solenoid. Solely relying on a sniffer and circuit alone to shut off propane was not reliable enough for me so I found a 12vdc timer circuit that would time out at a preset amount say 1 hour. So you could turn on propane circuit with a momentary push button and it times out and shuts off the solenoid say in 1 hour. You could hit the button any time again to get another hour. This added feature gave me more piece of mind. I did not end up pulling the trigger on the conversion, but this was how I would set it up.

Bud

 

[Duke of Patch]

A lot of good discussion here; A naked propane bottle exposed outside the cabin where leaking gases can easily flow overboard is safe. If escaping gases that seek a low point can enter into the hull or cabin enclosure - thats potentially unsafe. This would apply to a vented exterior dedicated locker as well. Gas lines leading into the boat's hull, cabin or enclosed space must be valved outside these enclosures. As with modern BBQ's the line from the gas cylinder/propane tank also normally has a safety valve closeby that in case of a cut in the line he safety valve shuts when large rapid volumes go through the valve (typical all propane devices). Directly downstream from this valve should be a solenoid valve controlled inside the cabin near the end device like a stove or heater. The hose/line type leading into the boat must follow sepcifications as listed in the code. I believe I read that a pressure gauge was required at the tank - however this seems a poor indicator of a leak as your nose can do a better job. You can also soap all fittings and look for bubbles. Although closing a manual valve each time after use exterior will accomplish the same thing,it appears to be disallowed by code and for obvious reasons and human nature thats its more likely to be performedf the valve is handy. Ultimately you want a safe installation and to satisfy any insurance company that a retrofitted installation meets current code and I would even go so far as to have it inspected and approved in writing by a knowledgeable surveyor and/or have a licensed gas technician perform the work - especially if it was done on an expensive yacht.

 

[mvweebles]

.....A naked propane bottle exposed outside the cabin where leaking gases can easily flow overboard is safe.......

I tend to agree but I'm not sure a surveyor would agree (and vis a vis insurance underwriter). The ABYC standard seems firm on a top-opening enclosure with intentional drain.

Peter

 

[ranger58sb]

I am thinking of converting to propane for my cook stove in the galley.

Why switch?

Or... if you have resistance electric cooktop now... have you tried induction?

Or... if by "stove" you include oven, what advantage would propane offer over a convection oven/air fryer thingy?

-Chris

 

[CharlieO.]

If I went with a dedicated propane storage locker on my flybridge would just having an open vent at the bottom-side if the locker be satisfactory as long as it was not closer than 20 inches to an opening into the hull/cabin? My flybridge is not enclosed with canvas.

 

[mvweebles]

Kevin - I think you mentioned in another thread that you're beloved loves gas. If you're considering a standard 20" marine stove, you may want to make sure it's acceptable. I find the burners pretty small and weak, even compared to the standard Mexican 20" household ranges that at least have a single large-ish burner.

My princess propane range is end of life (oven is a bit rusty). I am so eager to replace with an induction top. I need to figure out something for an oven but that's workable.

Bottom line is I second Chris's thumbs-up on induction. I suspect it will become popular in Mexico because it does such a good job with slow cooking (think beans or birria).

Peter

 

[Duke of Patch]

I tend to agree but I'm not sure a surveyor would agree (and vis a vis insurance underwriter). The ABYC standard seems firm on a top-opening enclosure with intentional drain.

Peter

Peter, for a permanent installation like an interior gas appliance stove - you are likely correct as the code speaks for itself. Just building or buying a vented enclosure would satisfy the code as long as its location satisfies the other code requirements and provide added protection and exposure to the elements. You see stern rail mounted BBQs everywhere, which technically doesnt meet code either even though it is accepted as standard practice. Bottom line safety comes first and insurance concerns on a $100,000 plus yacht is something to be taken seriously.

 

[ksanders]

It just seems a bit silly to me to install a propane locker right next to the BBQ with it's open tank.

I can do it, but logic would dictate that if the BBQ is compliant with it's tank, then why would not the stove be compliant as well? Or... is my BBQ not ABYC compliant?

What if I shared the BBQ tank and installed the line to the stove, complete with selonoid valve beneath the BBQ?

I really wish I could get a definitive answer. It seems silly to have to hire a surveyor to decide what is compiant.

 

[CharlieO.]

I think it depends on who's rules of compliance you are trying to meet. Some people would look at your grill and say it is too close to your canvas enclosure and the gas can is too close to the grill. If you were really trying to adhere to ABYC recommendations it could be argued for a propane locker that would have the tank(s), with solenoid valves, sniffer and pressure gauge to feed both the galley and grill and not have a tank in the grill cabinet.