Pre-purchase redlines?

[Ron Hopkins]

Greetings Forum Experts,

I'm going to ask an valued opinion of those here even though I have a gut feeling as to the answer. Trish & I have been searching for a boat that meets our expectations on value/price/compromises for a little over a year. We've looked at a number of great candidates but ended walking away for what we perceived as a reasonable decision. Still searching.

We recently looked at a great boat that at it's age should be a perfect boat. In review, the owner put off at lot of maintenance and the boat needs some TLC.. We can do that! Not with an open checkbook, but we're competent on PM and cleanup.

The recent boat had a number of issues, but the biggie is the generator had a number of issues, the oil pan had in the past failed and the owner did a non-standard repair of using JB Weld epoxy to fix some pin-holes up to 1/4", to resolve oil leaks. All the mechanics I've discussed this with feel is this is OK for a short term, temporary fix but not a permanent resolution. To properly fix this, the main engine needs to come out, then remove the generator for repair. A significant repair!

The seller is emotionally attached to the boat and feels the repair is adequate and not interested in price modification related to this issue.

I'm seeing this as a walk-away issue but interested in the opinion of those here.

Cheers,
Ron

 

[Delta Riverat]

Might be easier/cheaper to remove the old one in pieces and replace with a new one. The new ones are a lot smaller than the old ones. Anything to avoid having to remove the propulsion engine eh?

 

[Bmarler]

1/4 is hardly a pin hole. What caused that? Also, I don’t think I’d remove the genset to replace the oil pan. I’d roll it over or hoist it up to gain clearance.
Of course the size of the engine space comes into play.

 

[Bmarler]

Put off maintenance is another red flag. Unless it checked every other box I’d move on.

 

[Ron Hopkins]

1/4 is hardly a pin hole. What caused that? Also, I don’t think I’d remove the genset to replace the oil pan. I’d roll it over or hoist it up to gain clearance.
Of course the size of the engine space comes into play.

There was a ground strap the ran under the oil pan and it chafed several holes during operation.

 

[Ron Hopkins]

Put off maintenance is another red flag. Unless it checked every other box I’d move on.

Yes, one of our concerns, what else was hidden as proper repairs.

 

[twistedtree]

Is the boat acceptable to you, with the needed repairs that you will need to pay for?

Also, how long has the boat been on the market? This is where good brokers should be able to nudge everyone's expectation a bit, including their own commission, to get the deal closed. An unsold boat serves nobody, and a sold boat serves everybody.

 

[JackConnick]

I bought our boat with the knowledge the gen hadn't run in 10 years. I included that in our lower offer. The boat was run down and not much PM had been done. No records. We had to remove our generator to repair the bearings, etc. Turned out to be a bad valve, around $7K to repair.

Seems funny that you'd have to remove an engine to get the gen out. I'd say that it's not a very good design... with the rest of the PM not done and this issue, unless you are getting a very good price, I'd walk away.

You could make a reasonable offer after you talk to a couple of mechanics for ideas and costs on resolving. JB Weld is going to fail sooner or later.

Any other potential buyer is going to see the same issues. Emotional attachment or not, he's going to have troubles selling.

 

[DDW]

I'm sure you've explored it, but I'm having a hard time imagining access and space above and around the genset being so tight that the oil pan cannot be removed. Raise the genset or even roll it over and R&R the pan.

If everything in the engine room is packed that tight, I might reject the boat on the basis of lack of serviceability alone.

 

[Blissboat]

What Bmarler said in #4 above. When buying a pre-owned boat, you are buying not so much the boat itself, but its history - specifically, its maintenance history. Sounds like this particular boat does not have a good story to tell. If nevertheless it still calls out to you, add up the cost to address its issues stemming from neglect. Double that sum, then deduct it from the seller's price idea, and make that your best offer. If someone else is willing to pay more, let them. If not, you'll eventually hear from the seller, asking whether your offer still stands. Meanwhile, keep looking for a boat whose owner has lavished it with tender loving care, and buy that one instead.

 

[mvweebles]

Obviously JB Weld is not a permanent repair. Any idea why the seller is saying this? Or did they just hit the end of their range of acceptance, perhaps gave concessions elsewhere that, cumulatively, are a bridge too far for them?

Hard to know what to think without more context. If the generator was relatively old and approaching end of life, the seller may be understandable in their reluctance to spend more money on it (or offer more than a token credit). Or if the repair is a sizeable percentage of the overall deal value, the seller may prefer to return to market and disclose the generator is nearing end of life. Or maybe the seller is just a jerk.

Out of curiosity, how did you find the JB Weld repair? That's the type of thing that is easily overlooked until its too late.

So many ways a boat deal can fall apart. Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, good question. If the seller disclosed he fixed the pan with JB, I would tend to think him an honest guy.

 

[O C Diver]

I'm sure you've explored it, but I'm having a hard time imagining access and space above and around the genset being so tight that the oil pan cannot be removed. Raise the genset or even roll it over and R&R the pan.

If everything in the engine room is packed that tight, I might reject the boat on the basis of lack of serviceability alone.

I would look for a second opinion from another mechanic. I can't remember a single generator installation where a generator couldn't be CAREFULLY turned on it's side after removing all fluids.

Is the generator in a sound shield? Most are fairly easy to disassemble and then raise the generator up to pull the oil pan.

Taking the owner out of the equation, there are many mechanics that either like to make work for themselves or can't think outside of the box. This isn’t replacing the main bearings on the crank shaft, this is swapping out an oil pan, about as difficult as removing a valve cover to adjust valves. I would seek some more estimates, with the stipulation that it needs to be done in place, no engine removal.

Ted

 

[ranger58sb]

I'm sure you've explored it, but I'm having a hard time imagining access and space above and around the genset being so tight that the oil pan cannot be removed. Raise the genset or even roll it over and R&R the pan.

Sounds like a reasonable idea for exploration, before deciding how to proceed.

If nevertheless it still calls out to you, add up the cost to address its issues stemming from neglect. Double that sum, then deduct it from the seller's price idea, and make that your best offer.

Good math.

We recently looked at a great boat that at it's age should be a perfect boat. In review, the owner put off at lot of maintenance and the boat needs some TLC.. We can do that! Not with an open checkbook, but we're competent on PM and cleanup.

The seller is emotionally attached to the boat and feels the repair is adequate and not interested in price modification related to this issue.

I'm seeing this as a walk-away issue but interested in the opinion of those here.

I think useful to explore those other fix-it options first -- that roll-over/repair-in-place thing, etc. -- before deciding. That said, there can be a limit to how much fix-it work you can stand, whether you can actually use the boat during all that, fix-it time versus boating time, how you value your own labor hours, etc...

And the seller isn't spending your money, you are. Just make the best reasonable offer you can. See Blissmath, above, for example... and were it me, I might adjust that even more if there are other specific high-dollar items nearing end-of-life and likely to crap out day after tomorrow (ACs or water heaters or etc.).

Then the seller will do whatever. The broker(s) may or may not stir the pot on your behalf.

What's the boat?

-Chris

 

[Ron Hopkins]

Thanks to all for comments and advice, you've confirmed my thoughts and I appreciate the dialog. I'm still talking to the seller (private sale, no broker), but likely will be moving on. The repair was disclosed as a completed project but the pan patches were obvious. I don't want to disparage the seller but he believes with some justification that it's a permanent repair. MB he was sold on the repair. I know it is not and that a new pan is required at a minimum. I'm hoping the yard and 2nd mechanic looking at the boat is will give me a better assessment on expectations.

As the sellers price is at the high end of the market, my gut tells me it should be in better shape and maintained properly, I'm not stuck on this boat as there's lots of questionable stuff. Meanwhile we've scheduling a trip to look at another boat that crossed our radar.
Thanks again to all.

 

[Ron Hopkins]

I would look for a second opinion from another mechanic. I can't remember a single generator installation where a generator couldn't be CAREFULLY turned on it's side after removing all fluids.

Is the generator in a sound shield? Most are fairly easy to disassemble and then raise the generator up to pull the oil pan.

Taking the owner out of the equation, there are many mechanics that either like to make work for themselves or can't think outside of the box. This isn’t replacing the main bearings on the crank shaft, this is swapping out an oil pan, about as difficult as removing a valve cover to adjust valves. I would seek some more estimates, with the stipulation that it needs to be done in place, no engine removal.

Ted

Thanks Ted.

 

[twistedtree]

As the sellers price is at the high end of the market, my gut tells me it should be in better shape and maintained properly, I'm not stuck on this boat as there's lots of questionable stuff. Meanwhile we've scheduling a trip to look at another boat that crossed our radar.
Thanks again to all.

This gets to a point I was trying to make. You don't necessarily need to get the cost of repairs knocked off the asking price to have an good/acceptable deal. I think it's easy to get hung up on whether or not a seller is willing to make price concessions, rather than looking at the boat whole package (good and bad) and thinking about what it's worth TO YOU. But you have answered the question above by saying the boat is priced high compared to others, so expectations are commensurately high.

 

[Shrew]

You may have made up your mind, so this might all be for naught, however.....

If the PO thought the JB Weld was a satisfactory fix for a leaking oil pan, then I am immediately suspicious of absolutely every other job the PO has done. You indicate that much PM has been overlooked. This is not surprising. The PO was lazy or cheap. When you let PM go, AND implement 'work-arounds' rather than solutions.......then everything is done that way.

Fast; Cheap; or Correct.....You can only have TWO.

 

[psneeld]

Sometimes repairs are satisfactory for the life of the item whether consistent with many opinions or not.

Had those holes been repaired by welding vs JB Weld, many would sing the song of "nicely done".

An oil pan is not under a lot of pressure and if the holes were not the pan generally rusting out but by from chafe from some kind of strap , not so sure it isn't a qualified permanent repair. Many critical things modern day are held by adhesives, even if the JB Weld fails, heck the genset survived the initial oil leaks so immediate repair isn't necessary as gensets are rarely critical to begin with.

If that the biggest issue you have with a suitable boat for your needs, I wouldn't let it deter the sale, but all sales are a dance of how bad someone wants to sell and how bad someone wants to buy.

Besides, how big is the genny? I pulled an 8kW unit apart and moved it around in the bilge by myself. Like Ted posted, may not be that big of a deal to replace an oil pan if it even really needs to be done at all (not leaking).

 

[keith c]

Does not sound like a deal breaker to me but its not my money etc. One lesson I learned concerning boat surveys,is to do the motor /genset survey prior to doing the marine , AKA, survey/a/c unit. pumps hull exams interiors etc, The dealer breaker likely come from the motor/gen set

 

[DDW]

Many oil pans on modern engines are made entirely of plastic.

 

[O C Diver]

Many oil pans on modern engines are made entirely of plastic.

Can you name a diesel marine propulsion or generator engine with a plastic oil pan? I can understand a $200 lawn mower engine with a plastic pan, but not a diesel engine.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

As far as what to look at first, I think it has a lot to do with the cost of a boat.

The ones I always buy, if not new, the engine is a throw away/rebuild after a year or less of use and I pay accordingly.

On cheap boats or really expensive ones where the motors are a large part of the total cost to replace...then sure.... check them out first. But if the engine(s) are a fraction of the boat's total cost to overhaul/replace, then not sure that's as big a deal. Many other projects get pretty pricey too.

 

[Gdavid]

Some gensets have cast aluminum oil pans with integrated mounts, Onan made these and they are no longer available for multiple models, so I could understand an owner making a JB weld repair rather than having to replace the entire genset or coming up with a custom mounting solution. Most small diesel engines are used in many other applications and other oil pans can be sources to fit that block, even if you need to change out the oil pickup, but the height and lack of structural support is the challenge in retrofitting. It would make financial sense for the do it yourselfer to take on the project but no financial sense if you are paying a mechanics labor rate to jury rig a solution.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

The thread is an interesting discussion but seems like everyone involved already has their mind made up; Seller isn’t reducing price or arranging for a generator oil pan replacement, potential buyer finds the JB Weld repair unacceptable at the current ask.

If it were me the bigger non-starter is the general serviceability of a boat that actually requires main engine removal just to get the generator out or at least in a suitable position for the repair to be done in situ (you really cant disassemble the generator to a point where it can be removed without pulling the main?). The JB weld repair may be a hack but it also may run a decade like that - wouldn’t be the first time such a thing has been done.

 

[DDW]

Can you name a diesel marine propulsion or generator engine with a plastic oil pan? I can understand a $200 lawn mower engine with a plastic pan, but not a diesel engine.

Ted

Some light truck diesels (from which their marine versions are derived) have plastic oil pans. Many car engines have plastic. The oil pan is far less vulnerable on a marine engine than a car or truck engine. Not going to get hit by a rock unless there are far greater problems.

Yeah, I'd rather have a metal pan. But we sometimes forget that the whole boat is basically made from plastic, and don't loose sleep over that. So if I otherwise loved the boat and that was the only thing, I wouldn't think twice. Repair it properly, if it is not too hard, watch it carefully otherwise. It isn't going to sink the boat, and won't even ruin the cruise if you are even slightly flexible.

 

[Snug Harbor]

I patched a 10 gallon compressor tank with JB Weld over 20 years ago, and am still using the compressor....90 +/- psi air pressure, take that for what it's worth...

We have repaired oil pans with West System epoxy. Sand blasted the pan to bare metal, then fiberglassed it using WS epoxy. We've also sand blasted pans and then "washed" them over with a brazing rod. Why? Sometimes the pans are horribly expensive or you just can't find a replacement, so you get creative. Of course those fixes assume you can get the pan off.

 

[tom campbell]

walk away

 

[rgano]

Any used boat with enough neglect in its background to result in holes in any engine pan is not a boat for me!

 

[Ron Hopkins]

Thanks for the additional comments, while we've moved on from this boat and are no longer a buyer for this vessel, I feel it fair to the seller to state that the problem was not caused by his neglect, but a installation flaw where a ground strap was installed without chafe guard under the oil pan inside the sound shield.

The problem was the seller expressed in his disclosures that it was properly repaired and sound. That is the questionable part of the issue, the repair in my mind was not proper and made questionable what else was repaired outside normal order. Again, not a problem as I've moved on...thank you to all that chimed in.

The original question I raised was if the forum experts felt that a repair with JB Weld was adequate, as expressed by the seller. I appreciate all the opinions and valued information.

This forum is a wealth of information... I appreciate all.