portlight cracked by neighbor

[paulga]

because a cleat broke free on a windy night, the rub rail of the neighbor's boat cracked the window of my aft stateroom. the neighbor only left his name and number with me, saying he had not found his insurance. should I insist asking for his insurance tomorrow?

 

[Comodave]

Oh yeah. He may not have insurance if he claims that he can’t find it. Did he at least give you the name? I always know who my insurance company is. Maybe ask the marina because they may know who it is. Also notify your insurance company.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah. I know who carries my insurance and I have the document right in the folder that has the certificate of documentation.

If guy is non-cooperative check marina office. Most marinas require a copy of insurance with them named additional insured.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah, that sounds a little sketch. As above, I might not have my policy number memorized, but I certainly know the name of the issuer (and would get the rest of the info to the other person ASAP vs. making them follow up).

Hopefully he's a regular there with a slip, and not someone who was only there as a transient.

It does make me wonder: If the marina's cleat actually tore out of the dock.... does that then also involve the marina's insurance? Seems like cleats that stay attached in "normal" stormy type wind isn't too much to expect.

 

[CharlieO.]

Yes, I would remind him that he still hasn't shared his insurance info with you. I can pull my policy right up on my phone and I keep a couple paper copies near the helm with my registrations and boater safety card. I would also let marina management know of the incident.

 

[mvweebles]

@Frosty #4 asks a good question. What cleat broke? If it was a dock cleat, maybe have a chat with the marina and ask about their insurance?

OP probably doesn't want to file a claim with their insurance which might increase rates, but that's what it's there for. OPs insurance might go after the other insurance companies (other guy and marina) to recoup costs, or they might decide it's small and won't bother.

Peter

 

[Jklotz]

If my boat hit yours and that's the only damage, I'd just cut you a check. Not worth a claim on my insurance for a window.

 

[slowgoesit]

Agree that a lot depends on whose cleat broke. If the neighboring boat's, then yes, he needs to either give you his insurance info, or cut a check. If Marina's, than IMHO, the Marina should pony up. Need more info.
By the way, from the pic, that's a lot more than just a "crack" in your window!

 

[paulga]

Agree that a lot depends on whose cleat broke. If the neighboring boat's, then yes, he needs to either give you his insurance info, or cut a check. If Marina's, than IMHO, the Marina should pony up. Need more info.
By the way, from the pic, that's a lot more than just a "crack" in your window!

It was the dock cleat . It was the only cleat that neighbor stern was tied to.
What other damage could you see in the photo?

The window is on the same level with neighbors rub rail. I heard a smash when his stern broke free. It sounded like some heavy object fell in the sun deck.

 

[Jklotz]

Hard to tell from the pic, but that cleat seems pretty small to be holding a big boat like that.

 

[Bmarler]

It looks like the cleat laying on the dock has lag bolts in the mounting holes. Easy to see why it broke loose. I think the marina should share responsibility for the damage.

 

[paulga]

It looks like the cleat laying on the dock has lag bolts in the mounting holes. Easy to see why it broke loose. I think the marina should share responsibility for the damage.

it should be through bolted. but the dock was also chipped off on the edge, even a through bolted cleat may not hold

 

[SteveK]

dock cleat makes it marina responsibility, unless that cleat was installed by the boat owner. However, marinas usually have small print that says moor at your own risk.

 

[tiltrider1]

You need to file a claim with your insurance company. Explain to them that you believe both the neighbor and the marina are at fault. Your insurance company will file a claim against both parties. A year from now all three parties will settle but your boat will get repaired next week.

 

[tiltrider1]

dock cleat makes it marina responsibility, unless that cleat was installed by the boat owner. However, marinas usually have small print that says moor at your own risk.

Never that simple in the US. Both parties have some fault. The marina for failure to maintain and the neighbor for not adequately securing the boat.

 

[Gypsy Island]

I can see only 1 Fender between the two boats, is it for beauty?

 

[paulga]

I can see only 1 Fender between the two boats, is it for beauty?

Fenders would not avoid this incident

 

[paulga]

dock cleat makes it marina responsibility, unless that cleat was installed by the boat owner. However, marinas usually have small print that says moor at your own risk.

Dockmaster just told me the cleats were installed by previous customers, not by the marina, so the marina will not take responsibility.

 

[paulga]

You need to file a claim with your insurance company. Explain to them that you believe both the neighbor and the marina are at fault. Your insurance company will file a claim against both parties. A year from now all three parties will settle but your boat will get repaired next week.

The neighbor says his insurance has a large deductible so he will just pay out of his pocket.

 

[Frosty]

Dockmaster just told me the cleats were installed by previous customers, not by the marina, so the marina will not take responsibility.

Just out of curiosity: So the docks would otherwise have no cleats? How does that work? Velcro?

 

[tiltrider1]

Dockmaster just told me the cleats were installed by previous customers, not by the marina, so the marina will not take responsibility.

Regardless of what Dockmaster thinks the Marina still has fault. It allowed the cleat to remain. If neighbor is willing to pay then all is well. If neighbor balks then file with your insurance company. Your insurance company will in turn go after both parties.

 

[paulga]

Just out of curiosity: So the docks would otherwise have no cleats? How does that work? Velcro?

marina only installed minimum essential cleats
customer need pay for additional cleats to be installed by the marina, $100 each

 

[Frosty]

marina only installed minimum essential cleats
customer need pay for additional cleats to be installed by the marina, $100 each

So does that mean the failed cleat WAS installed by the marina? Or the dock neighbors went rogue to avoid paying $100 and installed it themselves. If it were the previous renters of that slip who installed the cleat themselves, you'd almost think the marina would go through and remove those before the next slip renter took the slip. I mean at that point they would seem like "marina cleats."

I'm always looking at cleats closely to see if they really seem viable, but I could see the argument that if you are renting a slip you kind of expect the cleats to all be usable. Some people aren't really qualified to assess attachment/backing/etc.

******
I'm not saying I totally defend the neighbor. Maybe they only had one line to one cleat, and anyone can see that's not a huge cleat and it's a large boat. That would be foolhardy.

 

[paulga]

So does that mean the failed cleat WAS installed by the marina? Or the dock neighbors went rogue to avoid paying $100 and installed it themselves. If it were the previous renters of that slip who installed the cleat themselves, you'd almost think the marina would go through and remove those before the next slip renter took the slip. I mean at that point they would seem like "marina cleats."

I'm always looking at cleats closely to see if they really seem viable, but I could see the argument that if you are renting a slip you kind of expect the cleats to all be usable. Some people aren't really qualified to assess attachment/backing/etc.

******
I'm not saying I totally defend the neighbor. Maybe they only had one line to one cleat, and anyone can see that's not a huge cleat and it's a large boat. That would be foolhardy.

the marina cleat looks like this

 

[guy with a boat]

There is a lot of unnecessary lawyering going on here.

The situation is that the neighbor’s boat hit the OP’s boat and damaged it. Determine the cost of repairs and request that amount from the nieghbor. He is the cause of your damage and it is up to him if he wants to look to the marina to share responsibility. It also shouldn’t be the OP’s concern about the source of the neighbor’s funds, including if he has insurance of wants to use it.

Nothing requires the neighbor to provide his insurance info to anyone. Its up to him to manage his relationship with his insurer (assuming there is one) and decide to file a claim or not.

 

[Frosty]

the marina cleat looks like this

Okay, so the marina cleats are fastened inboard of the edge, and the "home brew" cleat was installed right into the thin edge board, which then (somewhat predictably) broke out along the grain.

But my question is this: IF this was a slip-renter installed cleat, was it installed by THIS slip renter (whose boat broke free), or was it installed by a previous slip renter, so then when THIS slip renter arrived to take the slip, the cleat was already there.

In the latter case I could see where THIS slip renter would have some case to assume any existing cleats were "marina cleats."

(Of course they could still have done something stupid, like only tie a large boat to a couple of cleats; not saying they are not responsible at all.)

View attachment 170056

 

[Frosty]

@guy with a boat

That's a good point. I mean, we are discussing about the cleat, but that's not really the main point in this debacle as far as the OP goes. For OP it's simple: "Your boat came loose and hit my boat while my boat was tied up. Please pay me "X" for the repair."

***************

Still interesting to think about in theory though: If a PO installed a crappy cleat (that the average boater might not realize was crappy), and then the marina rents the slip to a new person, does that new person have any recourse with the marina because how are they to know who installed what? You'd almost think the marina would remove said "crappy" cleats before the slip gets turned over.

 

[Comodave]

A lot of good responses. I would ask the marina to check and verify that all of the cleats in you and your next door neighbor slips are secure and trustworthy. Or are there more rogue cleats waiting for the next storm to cause more damage. Also are there marina installed cleats through bolted and have some sort of backing plates on them?

I have a wooden boardwalk behind my house that has cleats to tie the boat up to. When we moved here I removed all the crappy cleats and bought new 12” cleats. I added a 4’ long 2x4 under the dock boards and screwed it to all of the dock boards. Then drilled through it and through bolted the cleats. So now to rip a cleat off it would have to take 4’ of dock boards with it. I do have some cleats lag screwed to the dock for fenders. I have little plastic engraved signs by each of the lagged cleats that says “Fenders Only “. That way if I were to have a momentary case of CRS disease I will still know not to tie the boat to that cleat.

 

[SteveK]

the marina cleat looks like this

View attachment 170056

From a construction guy perspective I look at the photo and see three rows of fasteners, none of the rows under a cleat. At first glance I would wonder if those cleats are lag bolt or bolt with nuts.

 

[slowgoesit]

Back in post 19, Paulga, the original poster stated that the neighbor said he'd pay for the repair. If he then wants then to go after the marina, that's on him.

I'd hesitate to turn this over to my insurance company, as I don't think it would be a lot of money, and no matter who they may subjugate the costs so, you still have an insurance claim on your record . . .

For the marina to claim they're not responsible for a poorly fastened cleat breaking free and leading to damage to boats, because the tooth fairy installed it is BS. When the marina rented you the slip, the renter has a reasonable expectation that everything is in working order unless they were informed differently in writing. If the marina feels that the cleats are substandard, then IMHO they are negligent in not immediately removing any and all items from a slip prior to renting it out.