Perkins 135hp diesel questions (slight smoke)

[Woodsong]

Edited! *No clue about why this was flagged....

We are buying a 36' trawler with single 135hp Perkins diesel. *I am trying to see if the smoke they produce is "normal." *See vids below from a cold start to end of 2 hour sea trial. *I "think" as we were later in the sea trial that it was not smoke and was just steam? *I had asked on another forum but you all here seem to have a lot of experience so let me know what you think. *

Start up from a cold start. *Outside air temps around 90-92 degrees:

Here it is 20 minutes into a 2 hour sea trial. *Running at about 175 degrees engine temp and 1,800 RPM:

2,200 RPM's about 40-50 minutes into sea trial. *Is this steam or smoke? *Looks like steam to me??? *Video:

End of 2 hour sea trial, 900 RPM's, full operating temps. *Note that what may look like smoke is not- there was sheen on the water from another boat we had just passed! *Basically no smoke or steam visible as we were pulling into marina:

NOTE: Last video link was wrong....here is the correct video at end of the sea trial at 900 RPM's:

Thanks!













-- Edited by Baker on Thursday 29th of July 2010 01:54:51 PM

 

[JD]

What did your Surveyor say?

 

[Marin]

Your first video is what I consider normal (or better than normal) startup oil burn-off. To me, this looks real good, particularly if it went away after a couple of minutes.

Your next three clips appear to be steam to me, no question. Not being familiar with this engine or the exhaust system in your boat (which can greatly effect how much steam comes out the pipe) I can't say if this is normal or not. But it looks like what I've seen a lot of other boats do, so I would suspect it's normal for this boat.

What I am a bit surprised at is that it put out this amount of steam with an ambient temperature in the 90s. But again, it all depends on the water temperature of the cooling water entering the exhaust and the design of the exhaust system. We were out this weekend with ambient temperatures in the 80s (but with water temps in the 50s) and I saw a few boats trailing steam behind them. Our boat (twin FL120s) does this in the winter but the exhausts are "steamless" in the summer.

By the way, this is a very clever use of YouTube.* A picture is worth a thousand words but lots of times a video is worth ten thousand.* Good on you.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 27th of July 2010 05:03:15 PM

 

[rochepoint]

Hi Tony
What model is your 135 hp Perkins and year?
Cheers Mike

 

[Woodsong]

hmm...I edited my link as it was wrong and now it says my post needs to be approved by a moderator? I must have messed something up!

Thanks Martin- I agree- it looked like steam to me but it seemed to be a lot more steam and lasting longer into the sea trial than I would have thought it would. To be candid, the purchase price on this boat is such that I have not bothered to get a survey. However, after today, a good friend of mine who is a surveyor is coming out with me tomorrow to look her over "unofficially" to see what is what. I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth so to speak (this boat is a serious once in a lifetime deal) but at the same time, I don't want another extra $10k in work I wasn't planning on. I've got enough to do on her already!

 

[Woodsong]

MOdel year is 1983, and I believe a Perkins 135hp 6.354M "I think." Seller told me and I wrote it down but left it at the office.

 

[Marin]

Steam does not necessarily go away during a cruise. In fact most of the boats I see emitting steam as they are cruising have obviously from their location been running for several hours (this includes our own boat). The oil smoke at startup should go away, but actually the steam won't appear until the engine and exhaust heat up to the point where it starts generating some steam at shich point it will continue to do so until the conditions in the exhaust system change, like cooling down as you slow down at the end of a run.

 

[dwhatty]

What happened to the beginning of this thread with the links to youtube? The first post I see is from JD.

 

[RickB]

That does look like a lot of "steam" for the air temperature. I would have a close look at the spray ring and check for hot spots in the exhaust just downstream.

 

[Max Simmons]

I'd be interested in seeing the video. I have twin Perkins 135's with about 2,200 hours. They smoke at start-up and clean up after a few minutes. Do you have some sheen at start up as well?

 

[Max Simmons]

Woodsong, btw if you need manuals, I have them in pdf format that I can e-mail. big file.

 

[Woodsong]

I have no idea what happened to my original post but here are the vids I took today....


Start up from a cold start. Outside air temps around 90-92 degrees:

Here it is 20 minutes into a 2 hour sea trial. Running at about 175 degrees engine temp and 1,800 RPM:

2,200 RPM's about 40-50 minutes into sea trial. Is this steam or smoke? Looks like steam to me??? Video:

End of 2 hour sea trial, 900 RPM's, full operating temps. Note that what may look like smoke is not- there was sheen on the water from another boat we had just passed! Basically no smoke or steam visible as we were pulling into marina:

I should maybe add that the boat has really say idle for quite a while...only taken out a few times last season, at best 2-4 hours running time.

 

[Tom.B]

Max Simmons wrote:

Woodsong, btw if you need manuals, I have them in pdf format that I can e-mail. big file.

First... I have the same engine and would LOVE the manuals.

Second, and more to the point, it looks exactly like the smoke from my motor. It is totally normal from what I am told. Mine is an '86 model 6.354 and I had the engine gone over pretty well. It's nothing to worry about.

At startup is just the oil that seeps thru the valve guides. The regular runnig smoke is simple steam from the wet exhaust. A Perkins with only 2000 hours is barely broken in

 

[Woodsong]

I think the steam duration and amount are the most concerning to me. The problem is around here there are no diesel mechanics that do pre-purchase surveys on diesel engines! However, there is a good diesel guy in the area so i have him scheduled to come take a look at her to make sure there is nothing serious going on...could be nothing, could be a cracked manifold or riser, or possibly warped head?? Hopefully its's nothing but we'll see.

 

[Max Simmons]

I just checked out the vido and say that start up is identical to mine. We have less steam in exhaust at operating temperature, but not much. Sound is identical. When I had the engine survey done at 2,000 hours the mechanic said it was normal.

 

[Tom.B]

"Perkins... If it ain't leaking oil, it's out of oil."
"Perkins... Smoke 'em if you got 'em."

 

[Egregious]

I have twin Perkins 6.354 engines.* I recently ran mine on a nearly 12 hour run, I saw some steam but didn't look as thick as that.* Mine have well over 3500 hours and smoke very little on startup.

Off the subject, just got a call from my mechanic -- he seems to be having a hard time finding the tranny cooler replacement directly from Perkins.* What other places are there to source parts from an old '84 motor aside from Perkins directly?* He said spare parts are hard to find since the recession.

 

[Datenight]

Woody,

This site may have what you want http://www.cpperformance.com/c-731-tube-style-oil-coolers.aspx

Rob
37' Sedan

 

[Tom.B]

Woody,

Are yours the turbos? I have a friend with two turbo engines and his smoke quite a bit less than mine does.

 

[Woodsong]

Well the good news is that I had a good friend of mine who is a great surveyor come look at her yesterday and he gave her a thumbs up but was a little worried about the steam. As well, when first cranked up, exhaust discharge seemed to be a white milky color and then after that a slight oil sheen on the water at the exhaust. He seemed to think it might be unburned fuel. I have a diesel tech coming out Saturday to look her over. I was going to close today but have another week per the contract so I told the seller I really want the mechanic to see the engine first. If all is well I will still try and close Saturday afternoon.


Anyone else experience exhaust that starts off white/milky?

 

[RickB]

Woodsong wrote:

Well the good news is that I had a good friend of mine who is a great surveyor come look at her yesterday and he gave her a thumbs up but was a little worried about the steam. As well, when first cranked up, exhaust discharge seemed to be a white milky color and then after that a slight oil sheen on the water at the exhaust. He seemed to think it might be unburned fuel.

Anyone else experience exhaust that starts off white/milky?

Great surveyor?

All diesel engines when starting from cold will experience poor or less than ideal combustion. This results in unburned fuel being exhausted. When this fuel reaches the atmosphere it condenses into microscopic droplets that we see as white smoke, just like fog or water vapor. When those droplets come into contact with cooling water at the spray ring they are carried along to form a surface sheen when that water is discharged overboard. You can reduce this by preheating the jacket water before starting if it bothers you or others in the marina

It is a normal phenomenon that any "surveyor" who feels competent to comment on a diesel engine's condition should be well aware of. .

*

 

[Egregious]

GonzoF1 wrote:

Woody,

Are yours the turbos? I have a friend with two turbo engines and his smoke quite a bit less than mine does.

No turbo, but I do have an Algae-X fuel conditioner on each motor installed by the PO.* I'm skeptical about how they work, but the testimonials on their site claim they reduce smoke among other things.

As far as the steam goes, my exhaust ports go out of the back of the transom and have some cupping that points the gas down into the water.* The videos show what looks like exhaust going out to the side.* The way the exhaust is expelled could have a good effect on how it looks when underway, so the actual amount of steam on my boat might be exactly the same.* Just a thought.

*

 

[Marin]

A fuel sheen on the water behind an older-generation diesel is very common. It occurs for the reason described by RickB. As the engine warms up combustion becomes more complete until it's completely complete and the unburned fuel sheen goes away. It's the nature of the beast.

Newer generation diesels don't do this, are aren't supposed to according to my engineering friend at Northern Lights/Lugger. In fact he told me after we bought our boat that elminating unburned fuel from the exhaust of a cold diesel--- which is pollution after all--- is one of the most challenging things to accomplish when creating a diesel for marine use. I suppose today they can use the electronic fuel metering systems and other technolgies to do it.

But for old thumpers like Ford Lehmans and Perkins, you get the sheen until the motor warms up.

Our engines shoot "milky" looking water out the exhaust when they first fire up--- this is just air bubbles in the exhaust water, probably mixed in with the first shot of water through the riser mufflers. You can watch them disperse after they come out the pipe and then they're gone.

 

[Baker]

Well guys, I have no idea why this thing is flagged. *It says it is waiting for my "approval" but have no clue as to what that means or how to do it. *I will work on it. *In the mean time, seems like y'all can see most of the thread if not the first post...

 

[Tom.B]

I'm told the Algae-X things are crap.

 

[Woodsong]

Baker wrote:

Well guys, I have no idea why this thing is flagged. *It says it is waiting for my "approval" but have no clue as to what that means or how to do it. *I will work on it. *In the mean time, seems like y'all can see most of the thread if not the first post...

haha- no problem. *I reposted the vids. *I originally posted them, then realized one of the links were wrong, so I went back in and edited it and that is when it flagged it. *Maybe the forums thought I was a spammer? *

Anyway, these forums are great!

 

[Marin]

GonzoF1 wrote:

I'm told the Algae-X things are crap.

If the Algae-X unit includes an actual*fuel*filter, a filter is a filter and as such it could do some good.* Where the Algae-X (and other similar products) get*systematically slammed is for their claims of higher efficiency, fuel "reconditioning,"*less smoke, fuel bug removal,*etc. that are based on magnetic fields.* This has been proven in test after test to be a totally bogus claim, yet a lot of people still fall for it (in the automotive world even more than the marine world).

Whenever I see a sentence in a product description like "ALGAE-X® Fuel Conditioners are self-cleaning, have no moving parts, require no electrical hookup, and are maintenance free." I have serious doubts about the viability of the product.* Even a simple*filter needs to be changed periodically which, in my book, is maintenance.*

My own feeling is that if one wants to improve the quality of the fuel going to the engine install one of more purpose-built filters in the fuel*line (Racor, etc), use a biocide in the fuel if bugs are a problem, get the sludge and other long-term buildup out of your tanks, and use the boat so you have relatively fresh fuel in it at all time.

The good news is--- so far as I'm aware--- that they don't hurt anything other than your wallet if you're the one who bought it.* So if you have one on your boat, what the hell, leave it there as long as you have sufficient fuel filtration to maintain the cleanliness of your fuel with or without the Algae-X unit.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 29th of July 2010 04:49:16 PM

 

[Keith]

You have to wonder why the magnets in Algae-X and similar items "destroy cell walls and biological matter" but then are recommended to cure arthritis and other ills by wearing them on your person.

 

[RickB]

I've always wondered why the MRI rooms in hospitals aren't connected to the emergency room so those unfortunate souls who had all their cell walls broken down could get help faster.

Even more of a nautical angle, how come none of the radio operators I sailed with (before GMDSS) lost their hands? They all had a few magnetron magnets stuck all over the radio shack and held them regularly. I have actually brought home a couple myself for the kids to play to with, we are all still happily in posesson of our hands and fingers.

They must be very "special" magnets with selective properties of destruction.*

 

[Peter B]

Actually Rick, It's just possible that what you just said, although in jest, might just have hit on how the damn things do work. I have always been skeptical myself, but being a medico, I am aware that no-one with any potentially magnetic metal in them can have an MRI, because the magnetron would oscillate these so much they would disrupt tissue. I think, and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong, these algae probably consume/absorb ferrous metal in minute quantities from the fuel, if an iron tank anyway, and from the other iron tanks the diesel is stored in. Maybe this metal in them does somehow become activated enough by the magnetism in these algae-X thingamies to disrupt their delicate call membranes....? Just a thought.