Overkill?

[Pascall]

Overkill

It always surprises me when I compare the equipment on, for example, a trawler and a sailing ship.
Trawlers and similar vessels are often equipped with various large and small screens, up to seven or even more, while a sailing ship often makes do with just one screen.
Many trawlers and similar vessels are equipped with the gear needed to cross the ocean, but often don't leave port or stay close to home, while there are many sailing ships with minimal equipment that circumnavigate the globe.

What's that all about?

Kind regards,

Pascal.

 

[Comodave]

I was once told that if you wanted something then you needed it. I haven’t seen other worked along that line most of my life.

 

[North Baltic sea]

I think there are many more sailboats than motorboats, and most people are not interested in crossing oceans. That is why there are fewer sailors who do this.

In addition, most trawlers are not capable of making crossings due to fuel and seaworthiness issues on the oceans. And most +30-foot sail boats can do it easily with minor modifications and equipment purchases.

Of course, there is also a budget difference between driving really long distances in a truck versus sailing.

 

[mvweebles]

Why the difference in electronics between sail and power/trawler? Real estate and money. Sailboats don't have much space to install electronics - trawlers do (and often a flybridge with a second command center). Trawler owners tend to be older - often ex-sailors. They have more money to buy doo-dads and baubles.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Other than personality in general, hard to answer this question with any hope of hitting it out of the park.

My gut feeling is that many sailors love the concept of simplicity....not all but many retain that dream for a long time. Wind is free and green, where power guys think heavy iron machinery controlling their lives. Equipment to do that is complicated.

Sailors tend to think wandering where powerboaters (aggain gross generalization) tend to think of point to point traves even though they too may love the voyage. But in that point to point mentality, lots of info at their fingertip will get them there safely and in a timely fashion that their fuel range demands.

Can't say which happens, the desire for the equipment coming from the perceived necessity or the getting it after some trips where that equipment would have made the trip "safer" at least in their minds.

For a lot of USA powerboaters, they spend a lot of time traversing inland water of smaller dimensions. For that, instrumentation clearly displayed helps in their comfort. Sailors tend to sail which in my experience is best done in open, predictable depth water. So between that difference, coupled with a real "wheelhouse" setup compared to an open to weather cockpit.... that certainly helps with the size of the suite of electronics/gauges.

Budget often enters the picture which makes sense, but add in too that the size and expense of either power or sail and the complication/sophistication of either can grow exponentially.

But we all know that gross generalizations are nothing more that fertilizer for long threads so let's hear some more....

 

[PierreR]

We can put it in the context of this forum and limit our generalizations to Cruisers whether they are sail or power.

I came from sail to displacement power boats and noticed a big difference in attitudes that I never saw as a sail boater. When cursing by sailboat, there was always a comradery between sail boaters and the power boaters seemed excessive and shallow.
Once the shoe was on the other foot I saw things much differently. I still felt like a sailor but the sail boaters looked at me like there was no difference between my boat and a cigarette boat. I also found out that the power boaters don't give a rats patuee whether you are sail or power as long as you are social and not a jerk. I find that refreshing to be more of a socialite than trying to be an introvert seeking companionship with other introverts.
In general: Sail boaters tend to be more introverted seeking satisfaction from external natural cues and this tends towards longer distance travel. Introverts in general make less money and can spend less on their boats. The wind is free.

Power boaters tend towards being more social seeking interesting conversation and interaction with other people. Sit down and have a drink and talk is common. Long times at sea are incompatible with socialization. In general, extroverts make more money and spend more on boats by writing checks.

 

[Don L]

As an ex sailboater who is now looking at old trawler what I see in ads is:

Trawlers have a lot of mismatched systems, each with their own screens etc. I never could have mounted all those to the helm nav pod on my sailboats.

 

[Bmarler]

Since there aren’t telltales to watch, or sail shape to tend, we need something to play with while we drive the boat.

 

[mvweebles]

We can put it in the context of this forum and limit our generalizations to Cruisers whether they are sail or power.

I came from sail to displacement power boats and noticed a big difference in attitudes that I never saw as a sail boater. When cursing by sailboat, there was always a comradery between sail boaters and the power boaters seemed excessive and shallow.
Once the shoe was on the other foot I saw things much differently. I still felt like a sailor but the sail boaters looked at me like there was no difference between my boat and a cigarette boat. I also found out that the power boaters don't give a rats patuee whether you are sail or power as long as you are social and not a jerk. I find that refreshing to be more of a socialite than trying to be an introvert seeking companionship with other introverts.
In general: Sail boaters tend to be more introverted seeking satisfaction from external natural cues and this tends towards longer distance travel. Introverts in general make less money and can spend less on their boats. The wind is free.

Power boaters tend towards being more social seeking interesting conversation and interaction with other people. Sit down and have a drink and talk is common. Long times at sea are incompatible with socialization. In general, extroverts make more money and spend more on boats by writing checks.

I've certainly noted a power/sail attitude divide, but mostly online forums like CF. We were one of 5-6 power boats in the 105 boat fleet in the Baja Ha Ha and noted some outsider patina but in all fairness, it's a sail-focused rally. Once past La Paz, almost no one gives a damn what you're driving. I've had a couple unintentionally derogatory comments, but those were from very green cruisers with a lot of books read and few miles beneath their keel. Clearly they'd read the Pardeys (or whoever) and could not fathom a world outside of sail. I will say sailors are pretty dang frugal and it takes a long time for them to develop their own style outside of what the books tell them they should worry about. There is something cultural about avoiding fully integrated electronics beyond just lack of real estate. That said, a LOT of power boats have a lot of screens for no good reason except they can (Maretron has an entire business model built in this). It's sort of silly. But boys will be boys I suppose.

100% of our cruising companions right now are sailors. Nobody gives a damn about sail vs power. Just isn't important. No debates about burning diesel or single engine vulnerability. Nothing. Just old school cruising camaraderie. Where are you going...
.where have you been......how were the tacos.

Peter .

 

[PierreR]

100% of our cruising companions right now are sailors. Nobody gives a damn about sail vs power. Just isn't important. No debates about burning diesel or single engine vulnerability. Nothing. Just old school cruising camaraderie. Where are you going...
.where have you been......how were the tacos.

Peter .

Annnnd, you want to claim you are normal power boater----right?

 

[Don L]

.where have you been......how were the tacos.

Peter .

and how were they for us use-to-be ?

 

[mvweebles]

Annnnd, you want to claim you are normal power boater----right?

I see your point, but I'm probably more common in the Bahamas or certainly the PNW.

Yesterday we crossed the Gulf of Fonseca - 20-miles of open water with winds in the high teens and gusts into the mid 20's. Seas were just forward of the beam, mostly 3-4 foot chop but occasional 5-6 foot set. It was pretty bumpy - reminded us crossing "the slot" in SF Bay. Had we needed to go direct into the waves we would have done a Plan B.

After 2300 miles, it was the worst seas we've hit. We're in Nicaragua!!! No reason any other old trawler in decent condition couldn't make this trip. No reason whatsoever except the constant drumbeat of Nordhavn, Krogan. Selene etc.

Peter

 

[KnotYet]

The pilothouse screens in our 40 year old trawler tell a story of the eras and owners it's had.

There is the original radar's CRT and equally ancient depth sounder CRT.
Then the mere 30 year old autopilot LCD and a 26 year old stabilizer LCD.
A tiny chart plotter was added to the mix circa 2000 plus 2 repeaters on the FB equals, yep, 7!

Each one of these screens was probably a significant investment for the previous owners.
I'm in the process of upgrading and combining functions of 4 of them into 3 new MFDs.
So, progress, right?

 

[Don L]

I see your point, but I'm probably more common in the Bahamas or certainly the PNW.

Yesterday we crossed the Gulf of Fonseca - 20-miles of open water with winds in the high teens and gusts into the mid 20's. Seas were just forward of the beam, mostly 3-4 foot chop but occasional 5-6 foot set. It was pretty bumpy - reminded us crossing "the slot" in SF Bay. Had we needed to go direct into the waves we would have done a Plan B.

After 2300 miles, it was the worst seas we've hit. We're in Nicaragua!!! No reason any other old trawler in decent condition couldn't make this trip. No reason whatsoever except the constant drumbeat of Nordhavn, Krogan. Selene etc.

Peter

WOW!!!! You been a lucky fair weather boater.

 

[psneeld]

Not sure luck always determines cruise comfort.

 

[mvweebles]

and how were they for us use-to-be ?

Interesting food took a nose dive after leaving Mexico. Food in El Salvador is good, but Mexico is simply superb. In El Salvador, "Pupusarias" are as plentiful as Taqueria's are in Mexico. Apparently no one in El Salvador has every had street tacos from Mexico. If they had, pupusa's would be extinct.

Platano's in El Salvador are excellent though.

Peter

 

[Fletcher500]

After 2300 miles, it was the worst seas we've hit. We're in Nicaragua!!! No reason any other old trawler in decent condition couldn't make this trip. No reason whatsoever except the constant drumbeat of Nordhavn, Krogan. Selene etc.

The dreamers vessel of choice from the keyboard.

 

[ranger58sb]

When cursing by sailboat, there was always a comradery between sail boaters and the power boaters seemed excessive and shallow.

-Chris

 

[PierreR]

-Chris

Danged spell checker I have had about enough of it's shirt.

 

[NoRain]

 

[Helmsman]

I would suggest the difference is that sailboats run without power, creating a need to minimize electrical usage while underway.

 

[slowgoesit]

The pilothouse screens in our 40 year old trawler tell a story of the eras and owners it's had.

There is the original radar's CRT and equally ancient depth sounder CRT.
Then the mere 30 year old autopilot LCD and a 26 year old stabilizer LCD.
A tiny chart plotter was added to the mix circa 2000 plus 2 repeaters on the FB equals, yep, 7!

Each one of these screens was probably a significant investment for the previous owners.
I'm in the process of upgrading and combining functions of 4 of them into 3 new MFDs.
So, progress, right?

But the important question Lee, is, even though they are older, or "outdated", do they WORK?
I'm the kind of guy that never realized that last years skis won't work on this year's snow. If it works, and it makes you happy, I don't see a single thing wrong with it.
Now, I WILL say that we removed a perfectly working set of 20 year old Furuno electronics from our boat, mostly because the chartplotter, maps, etc, were not longer supported, and I really, REALLY liked the new color screen radar we replaced the old monochrome radar with.

 

[slowgoesit]

After 2300 miles, it was the worst seas we've hit. We're in Nicaragua!!! No reason any other old trawler in decent condition couldn't make this trip. No reason whatsoever except the constant drumbeat of Nordhavn, Krogan. Selene etc.

Peter

Yep, I'm so disappointed to learn that our Beebe Passagemaker isn't suitable for long distance traveling since it isn't one of the ones you mentioned. The things we learn after we purchase our boats!

Another thing we've "learned". We were told that boaters could not consider themselves "experienced" unless and until they've completed the Great Loop. We were told this as we were halfway across the Caribbean, having bought out boat in PNW, gone to Alaska, then down the coast through the Panama Canal and up to Florida!

No offense to Loopers, and we have a LOT to learn about East Coast cruising, Intra-coastal Waterways, and lots and lots of skinny water, but I'd like to think we have a picked up some mediocre skills in our travels

 

[Don L]

sounds that someone talks to too many snobs

 

[mvweebles]

Yep, I'm so disappointed to learn that our Beebe Passagemaker isn't suitable for long distance traveling since it isn't one of the ones you mentioned. The things we learn after we purchase our boats!

Another thing we've "learned". We were told that boaters could not consider themselves "experienced" unless and until they've completed the Great Loop. We were told this as we were halfway across the Caribbean, having bought out boat in PNW, gone to Alaska, then down the coast through the Panama Canal and up to Florida!

No offense to Loopers, and we have a LOT to learn about East Coast cruising, Intra-coastal Waterways, and lots and lots of skinny water, but I'd like to think we have a picked up some mediocre skills in our travels

Scot - Muirgen/Beebe is so accomplished, it stands alone - a vessel without peer! Don't get me wrong, a strong boat with heft makes weather decision making much easier, but if someone is patient, you don't need a purpose-built boat optimized for open water. Many threads over the years have talked about how a stout boat such as Muirgen is desired for unexpectedly heavy weather - no doubt that's true. But owning a large-ish boat such as a KK54, Beebe Passagemaker, N55/N63, Selene 55 carries their own ownership burdens of expense and logistics. While they may make transiting easier, the tradeoff is arrival and maintenance is harder. Like yourself, I know of many boats in Muirgen's class/size who bypass areas and anchorages we eagerly explore, partly because if we lost Weebles on rocks or something, we'd survive the loss without much of a penalty except memories.

When I moved to Florida from California, I did so with boating hubris. Big Water of the Pacific compared to the tranquil GoM waters. I was a badass, right??? Oh boy did I eat crow. The skinny waters of Florida scare the crap out of me - really humbled me when I realized how quickly shoals move. I like SE waters, but I really under-estimated the challenges.

Peter

 

[nwh10]

Danged spell checker I have had about enough of it's shirt.

Oh, I dunno! I thought cursing made complete sense!

 

[mvweebles]

I would suggest the difference is that sailboats run without power, creating a need to minimize electrical usage while underway.

I used to think so too. Until I went aboard catamarans. They rival us trawler geeks for gizmos.

Peter

 

[MYTraveler]

IMO, the difference is reflective of a basic philosophical divide between those who prefer power vs sail, just as there is between dog people and cat people and, well no politics.

 

[Gdavid]

Since there aren’t telltales to watch, or sail shape to tend, we need something to play with while we drive the boat.

Like all good humor, there is a lot of truth in this. When cruising under sail, in a steady breeze, it is pretty easy to hold a steady course by keeping sails full, you can close your eyes and the heal angle and rudder feedback will let you know if you are drifting off course. Your eyes aren't drawn inside the boat, to the dash frequently checking temps and pressures. I rarely hand steer my trawler in open water, the autopilot is keeping me on course, so my eyes are on the dash, instruments as well as the water in all directions from the flybridge. I'm watching the sounder for signs of life rather than just occasionally checking the depth.

When I have sailed boats with cockpit mounted chart plotters, the MFD's are rarely in a good position to read from the helm. On a wheel steered boat, it is far more comfortable to sit outboard of the wheel than behind it, but the nav pods are mounted to be viewed from looking down the centerline of the boat.

 

[Helmsman]

I used to think so too. Until I went aboard catamarans. They rival us trawler geeks for gizmos.

Peter

Yea, many cats and larger monohulls have generators, particularly in hotter climes. I was thinking more of the large base of sailors who are minimalists in their boating.