Our experience trying to view Diesel Duck "Zeta: with Seattle Yachts

[Foggy]

I'm posting this just as a head's up for anyone interesting in this Diesel Duck "Zeta" that is under brokerage with Seattle Yachts. This isn't a rant or complaint, this is just what happened last Saturday morning when I tried to view her.

Here is the boat - supposed to be well maintained and in great condition:

2009 Diesel Duck 41-Plus 46' Yacht For Sale | ZETA | Seattle Yachts

ZETA is a 2009 As Boat Yacht Building (Turkey) 45 41-Plus for sale in Anacortes Washington. With its spacious accommodations, comfortable cruising speed, and extensive range, the Diesel Duck 41-Plus is the perfect vessel for bluewater cruising, liveaboard...

www.seattleyachts.com

Over the years we have owned and sold boats, so we haven't just fallen off the turnip truck. We were interested in viewing Zeta before we embark on our own boat building adventure - just to make sure there wasn't something already on the market that we would fall in love with. We were friends with the Buehler's from long ago, and I know on a personal level why George designed these Diesel Ducks the way he did. He wasn't a university-trained naval architect, but he had a lot of experience in boatyards and as a sailor, and I respected his long experience. These diesel duck designs are well proven performers that are good passagemakers - and will take you anywhere in the world you want to go. Depending on how the boat is built, of course. The original design for Diesel Ducks was intended to be a very strong wood hull, but a lot of owners opted to have their 'Ducks built from steel in Turkey, or at Seahorse Marine in China. Of course you are welcome to buy the plans and build one yourself in whatever hull material you like best. Up to you.

So we made the 6 hr drive up to Trawlerfest last weekend. I wasn't sure what day we would arrive (I don't know my schedule more than a few hours ahead), but I had chatted with the broker on and off a few months prior, and explained our interest. Long story short: Once we got to the boat show I arranged to see Zeta at the boatyard down the road. A few months back the plan was that Zeta would be in the water at Trawlerfest, but when we arrived another broker told us that the owner didn't want to spend the extra money to move the boat into a slip for the show. OK. The owner can do whatever.

The broker explained that she was very very busy at Trawlerfest but we could get that time slot for Saturday morning for private showing. We also got the usual tag line that if we wanted to see Zeta in the water we'd have to put in a contract offer first, or if we wanted to be first in line to see her we'd have to put an offer in first...the usual blah blah blah broker BS. I wasn't worried - I know Zeta has spent most of her life being on market. I don't think she's going anywhere in the next day or so.

My viewing appointment was at 8:30am on Saturday at the boatyard, and I specifically asked if the boatyard would be open for access. Broker said "yes, everything would be opened up by 8:00am Saturday morning".

So on Saturday I walked the mile down to the boatyard, and got there on time (we were at the RV park by the boat show docks area - If you know Anacortes, Zeta was in the yard across the street from the Bananabelt Boats yard...you can see that in the listing photos). The gates to the yard were locked. Why was I not surprised?

The broker got there, and was making phone calls to find out how to get into the boatyard, but that wasn't going anywhere fast on a Saturday morning. Then she suggested we could do Sunday morning, but I didn't have that kind of time in my schedule, so I left. She kept explaining that she was incredibly busy at Trawlerfest, and there wasn't anyone else available to show the boat...and so on. I was down at the docks on Friday during the boat show, and I saw a lot of brokers standing around chatting with each other, or too busy to look up from their cell phone while they sat on a boat...but I don't know. Maybe they were busy selling a boat via a cell phone.

To be fair, the broker did text me back - hours later in the day when we were already a hundred miles away driving towards home, saying she had found the key to the boatyard. But too late for us.

I know things go wrong. I just hope in the future everybody at the brokerage firm knows how to get access to the boat yard.

The attached photos show our viewing of Zeta. The listing broker in San Diego explained that the owners use the boat continuously, and still enjoy the boat, and in no hurry to sell her. I think that's the way of saying "Don't you dare put in an offer below asking price". OK. Good to know. If the owner's aren't interested in selling, then this is a good place for the boat.

I am a professional engineer, and - even though I'm not a licensed marine surveyor - I am capable of looking at the general condition of a boat. Putting a boat up on blocks in uncovered storage has it's own challenges, as you see here. I wasn't able to inspect the hull closely, but from a distance I could what what looked like rust-swelling on the hull that might have been painted over...and the skeg and lower rudder post are certainly going to need some TLC soon. Those zincs don't do much when the boat isn't in saltwater. The underhull coating system will certainly need to be addressed.

We will leave this Diesel Duck for someone else to enjoy!

My head's up here is: If you're going to look at Zeta, have plenty of time in your schedule in case the boatyard is locked up. I did email the owner of Seattle Yachts, and he said he would address the situation.

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks for sharing, and sorry you had to go through this

 

[Foggy]

Well, I look at it like the best thing I can do is to give somebody else a head's up to prevent the same waste of time - that's the brilliant thing about this forum !! I know, maybe it was just a chance event - but just be aware. I know there are good and bad brokers...and this broker didn't do anything wrong per se - but in the future she could double-check to make sure she had access to the yard where the boat lies if she's going to show it.

 

[sean9c]

Ya, sounds like a typical yacht broker. I went to that trawlerfest and I'll agree that there sure seemed to be a large number of yacht brokers engrossed in talking to each other. The least they can do is move out of the way.

 

[slowgoesit]

Your story isn't all that different from many others we've heard of. We drove several hundred miles to look at a DeFever that was listed for sale with a well known brokerage house. Set up a time to go look at it at 11:00 am. We got up, left the house at 5:00 am, driving and breakfast took 6 hours, with us arriving a few minutes before "show" time. . . . no broker . . . There was only so much we could see from outside, and looking through windows . . . went and had lunch . . . .
Finally got in touch with broker about 1:30 or so. She had been called out of town . . . "Could you come back tomorrow?" This was supposed to be a day trip, so my reply was, "Sure, who do I bill the hotel room and dinner to?"
She didn't take it well, and once again stated that her getting called out of town came up unexpectedly the evening prior, and she didn't want to call late, or early . . . .
"Professionals" aren't what they used to be . . . .
We went home, and when she called a few days later to set up another viewing, I told her we could come to see the boat if she would send us $500.00 that we would return to her if she showed up at the appointed place and time. Otherwise, we'd keep it. She didn't take it well . . . needless to say, we didn't buy the boat. . . .
Funny how a broker's time is important, but perspective buyers can suck wind as far as a lot of them are concerned . . . .Just our experience . . .

 

[mvweebles]

@Foggy - With all due respect, if your time is that tight and find schedule afront that quickly, building a boat will be suicide-inducing frustration.

The broker made a mistake and apparently figured out how to do her best to make it right ---- on the last Saturday of a major boat show. You were an hour and half away.

Peter

 

[Diep]

Bummer. I've had limited but otherwise decent experience with Brokers. Never dealt directly with SY and had a good experience as a walk-up to one of their vessels at the show. To be honest I am rather put off by the chat bot on their site.

If I read your timeline very carefully, it sounds like you communicated a few months ago. Then you arranged a viewing appointment after arriving at the show on Friday, less than 24 hours in advance.

To me it sounds like the broker may not have been clear as to your level of interest and/or schedule sensitivity.
You were already on site, at a boat show, and arranging a contemporaneous showing of a separate vessel. If you had called the week before, inquired about the availability of the boat and whether it would be on display at the show, perhaps they may have been more prepared. Who knows.

Speaking of the show in general, I usually prefer the brokers chat with each other instead of me...

 

[Comodave]

We were looking for a trawler on the west coast back in 2001. I had searched the southern end of California and nothing I liked was there. I was doing a lot of traveling for the CG at the time. I was in Vegas and was going to Seattle to look for a boat from there. I woke up and was headed to the airport to go to Seattle and saw a 44’ trawler in Long Beach. Standing in line at the airport I called the broker and asked if the boat was still for sale and was he familiar with it, yes and yes. He said he was the listing broker. So I called my wife and had her change my flight to LA. I got to the broker and we went to the boat, exactly what I wanted. So I wrote up an offer. On the way back to the marina to secure the slip I get a call from the broker. The boat had already been sold, surveyed and sea trialed. How can you as listing broker not know that? Duh. Oh well. Called my wife and had her rebook my flight to Seattle, rental car and hotel. Ended up buying a boat in Seattle and running it down to LA. Great trip. Brokers…

 

[Mako]

@Foggy curious what your thoughts are on that galley-in-the-alley design. My wife and I couldn’t accept that in previous viewings, especially with the barely standing headroom down there.

 

[dannc]

@Foggy curious what your thoughts are on that galley-in-the-alley design. My wife and I couldn’t accept that in previous viewings, especially with the barely standing headroom down there.

We have not been on the DD that Foggy was trying to view, but we liked the Seahorse DD 462's galley we viewed. I did not find the head room a problem and I am on the tall side. We liked the galley's use of space from the salon to aft stateroom.

 

[twistedtree]

Well, I look at it like the best thing I can do is to give somebody else a head's up to prevent the same waste of time - that's the brilliant thing about this forum !! I know, maybe it was just a chance event - but just be aware. I know there are good and bad brokers...and this broker didn't do anything wrong per se - but in the future she could double-check to make sure she had access to the yard where the boat lies if she's going to show it.

It seems to me that she didn't do any of her homework with respect to showing you the boat, and each step of the way she effectively reminded you of what a favor she was doing by taking the time to show you the boat. The only thing she seems to have done correctly was show up. That's a low bar, but sadly one that too many people fail to clear.

 

[Judy at JWY]

I sold Zeta from her 1st owner to this current owner. If you want historical information on this vessel, send me a pm.

 

[Foggy]

Bummer. I've had limited but otherwise decent experience with Brokers. Never dealt directly with SY and had a good experience as a walk-up to one of their vessels at the show. To be honest I am rather put off by the chat bot on their site.

If I read your timeline very carefully, it sounds like you communicated a few months ago. Then you arranged a viewing appointment after arriving at the show on Friday, less than 24 hours in advance.

To me it sounds like the broker may not have been clear as to your level of interest and/or schedule sensitivity.
You were already on site, at a boat show, and arranging a contemporaneous showing of a separate vessel. If you had called the week before, inquired about the availability of the boat and whether it would be on display at the show, perhaps they may have been more prepared. Who knows.

Speaking of the show in general, I usually prefer the brokers chat with each other instead of me...

Yes, sort of. She knew we were interested, but I couldn't confirm a hard appointment time ahead of time...I had left it at something like "I'm headed there to Trawlerfest, but not sure what day Ill be there" I get what you are saying. On the other hand we DID have a firm appointment setup for Saturday morning, by her request, on Friday. That was her schedule, not mine. As I pointed out in opening line, this thread isn't a complaint, just a "what happened". I know plans go awry, and as I pointed out I don't think she intentionally did anything wrong - but it still would be nice if she had access to the yard. As I pointed out to Seattle Yachts - this is what happened, and it would be good if the brokers always had a way to access the boatyard for a showing. That's all. My advice is to just add plenty of time if someone else is going to look at Zeta - or any other boat that's on the hard.

I agree 100% with you about chatting with brokers - and yes half the time we wished they would go chat OUTSIDE the boat while we looked inside. . ONE EXCEPTION was Justin who showed us around a 2007 American Tug "Salish Nomad" on Friday. Very good broker - listened to questions, answered honestly, kind of stepped back when we wanted to poke around ourselves. We didn't have to interrupt his cell phone time either - we were warmly invited inside right away. VERY nice guy. Justin, if you're reading this: THANK YOU!!

 

[Diep]

Having shopped for a boat in Puget sound, but being 2.5-5 hours away I feel your pain. We worked with a great broker but blocked out "tour" days in advance and defended them against work, etc. I am sure our broker then spent hours on the phone arranging, scheduling, confirming, reconfirming, etc for each day we got together. Even then we needed to be flexible because some days a certain boat just didn't work out.

In your case I can see plausible scenarios from Broker simply blew you off to something unexpected happened and the yard didn't open like they said it would. Either way its a bummer and really disappointing to be so close but not able to step aboard.

I am interested to follow your story and see what you end up buying or building so I hope you stick around.

 

[Foggy]

@Foggy curious what your thoughts are on that galley-in-the-alley design. My wife and I couldn’t accept that in previous viewings, especially with the barely standing headroom down there.

Well, that's exactly what we wanted to see what that was like when we were keen to see Zeta !! I'm so glad you confirmed our suspicion!! George always wanted the galley so that the stove oven door was in the fore-aft direction, not athwartships. That way "the pie doesn't fall out when the boat is rolling or heeling", in his words. I THINK I remember him saying that it was the shipyard or owner that wanted the alley galley, so he modified the plans as per request.

Sounds like that wasn't the best idea ever. Thanks for sharing that!

 

[Mako]

Plus the more obvious is that the galley in that configuration is the opposite of spacious and is a tiny dark cave. Personally if I owned one I’d modify the saloon to be galley-up. That little alley would be perfect for a deep freeze and washer/dryer.

 

[mvweebles]

Plus the more obvious is that the galley in that configuration is the opposite of spacious and is a tiny dark cave. Personally if I owned one I’d modify the saloon to be galley-up. That little alley would be perfect for a deep freeze and washer/dryer.

Many center cockpit sailboats have "alley galleys" including the respected world cruiser Amel. I seem to recall at least one Swan aft cockpit (but with aft stateroom) that also had an alley galley. They are low and near the center of gravity and a good place to cook underway.

The issue I see with Diesel Ducks and some other offshore style boats is they are great when underway in inclement conditions, but they suck the rest of the time. If you want a Niagra Falls Barrel, great choice. If goal is to avoid Niagara Falls conditions, not a great choice. Not just the DD but many other offshore style designs.

A buyer really needs to decide how they plan to use the boat. There is this myth that if the boat can cross and ocean, it's more than adequate to get to the Bahamas (or dozens of other destinations). Truth is that's simply not true. If you're headed to low latitudes, ventilation is important. If you're planning long trips, access on/off boat is important (anchor or marina). If you're doing the Loop, air/water draft are important.

Peter

 

[Foggy]

Plus the more obvious is that the galley in that configuration is the opposite of spacious and is a tiny dark cave. Personally if I owned one I’d modify the saloon to be galley-up. That little alley would be perfect for a deep freeze and washer/dryer.

I believe on an earlier draft of the Duck designs George had it the galley more in that lower seating area, and the alley was freezer / laundry and workbench area. Which makes more sense to us. We wanted to see how hard it would be to remodel Zeta. We like the bathroom in the V area - we aren't fans of the typical V-berth bunk layout you normally see in the foc'sle.

His philosophy was that a couple's boat should be: "Drink 6, eat 4 and sleep 2. And the guest quarters should never be be more comfortable than needed for one night". <Grin> That vibe is OK with us - no grandkids, and kids are too busy with work to travel much - not that they'd want to travel by boat anyway.

 

[dannc]

...
A buyer really needs to decide how they plan to use the boat. There is this myth that if the boat can cross and ocean, it's more than adequate to get to the Bahamas (or dozens of other destinations). Truth is that's simply not true. If you're headed to low altitudes, ventilation is important. If you're planning long trips, access on/off boat is important (anchor or marina). If you're doing the Loop, air/water draft are important.

Peter

Yep.

I liked the Diesel Duck galley because it was out of the way, it is sorta a tight space where one can't fall far and the galley could be organized decently for cooking. A U shape galley would be better though.

The double edge sword of the alley galley was that one could have some "wall cabinets" but one could hit your head against them too.

For a Diesel Duck 462, I could not find a better galley size/location than the alley. If one moved the galley forward in the salon, well, that just took up quite a bit of space that we did not think worked well. Putting the galley in the pilot house just would not fit. This is for the pilot house Diesel Duck not the sedan version.

Personally, on most pilot house boats, I do not like galley up since it takes up valuable space that I would rather use differently. Galley up designs often can't have wall cabinets, which decreases storage and usability, because it would block the view from the pilot house. Galley up is also going to have more motion than if the galley was down.

In the end, a boat is very design compromised. What one does for X will negatively impact Y. Which is more important, X or Y? I might pick X but someone else would say Y. Neither is right or wrong.

For some strange reason, YouTube showed me an interview with a sport fisher builder in NC. One of the interesting things the builder discussed was boat features. People would ask why the boat had X and the builder would say the owner wanted X. The build said I might not, or would not, do X but that is what the owner wanted. Different horses for different courses.

 

[mvweebles]

Yep.

I liked the Diesel Duck galley because it was out of the way, it is sorta a tight space where one can't fall far and the galley could be organized decently for cooking. A U shape galley would be better though.

The double edge sword of the alley galley was that one could have some "wall cabinets" but one could hit your head against them too.

For a Diesel Duck 462, I could not find a better galley size/location than the alley. If one moved the galley forward in the salon, well, that just took up quite a bit of space that we did not think worked well. Putting the galley in the pilot house just would not fit. This is for the pilot house Diesel Duck not the sedan version.

Personally, on most pilot house boats, I do not like galley up since it takes up valuable space that I would rather use differently. Galley up designs often can't have wall cabinets, which decreases storage and usability, because it would block the view from the pilot house. Galley up is also going to have more motion than if the galley was down.

In the end, a boat is very design compromised. What one does for X will negatively impact Y. Which is more important, X or Y? I might pick X but someone else would say Y. Neither is right or wrong.

For some strange reason, YouTube showed me an interview with a sport fisher builder in NC. One of the interesting things the builder discussed was boat features. People would ask why the boat had X and the builder would say the owner wanted X. The build said I might not, or would not, do X but that is what the owner wanted. Different horses for different courses.

This may be heresy, but my hunch is the Diesel Duck appeals to newbie-types who dream of crossing oceans but can't afford a Nordhavn/Selene/Whatever. They don't really think through the 99% of the time spent cruising that isn't crossing an ocean. So they end up with a 1% boat (in fairness, Nordhavn's marketing isn't far behind the 1% appeal).

No doubt a DD is capable of crossing an ocean but it strikes me as severely compromised for doing much else. Not a great boat for nice water. And it's far down on my list of boats I'd want to sit at anchor (or marina) in low latitudes. Or skinny water. Or where there are air draft concerns. But if I only had $300k and wanted a Perfect Storm boat for some bizarre reason, a DD is high on my list as long as I could sell it easily as soon as I finished the Perfect Storm.

Peter

 

[ConejoBlu]

You dodged a bullet with this boat to my opinion. I had this boat under contract, but passed after the survey. From the pictures you posted, the condition has only gotten worse.

 

[Foggy]

You dodged a bullet with this boat to my opinion. I had this boat under contract, but passed after the survey. From the pictures you posted, the condition has only gotten worse.

I suspected as much from what little I saw of the boat, and thanks so much for sharing that detail. Did you notice how the listing pictures leave out the aft section and rudder? She's going to need quite a bit of TLC ($$$$) for sure to get back into shape.

The engine has such low hours on it, that's not a good thing either. I pull wrenches on diesels here on the farm, and I'd much rather see an engine with higher hours that's been well maintained. At least a few hundred hrs per year. Zeta's power plant will for sure need some deep going over - just because-it's me, it would get a rebuild for at least all new gaskets, and careful inspection of the entire block, crank, pistons etc.. Running or not, diesels will still deteriorate over time - worse when they don't run. There is a reason that most engine specs list a minimum number hours per year that the engine should be run.

I guess the real mistake was that I should have asked about Zeta here on the forum FIRST !! <grin> BUT we sort of wanted to see her in person, and we wanted to see what Trawlerfest was like.

Oh Well...done and done. Our trip didn't go as planned, but it worked out for the best.

Thanks Everyone!

 

[CharlieO.]

I suspected as much from what little I saw of the boat, and thanks so much for sharing that detail. Did you notice how the listing pictures leave out the aft section and rudder? She's going to need quite a bit of TLC ($$$$) for sure to get back into shape.

The engine has such low hours on it, that's not a good thing either. I pull wrenches on diesels here on the farm, and I'd much rather see an engine with higher hours that's been well maintained. At least a few hundred hrs per year. Zeta's power plant will for sure need some deep going over - just because-it's me, it would get a rebuild for at least all new gaskets, and careful inspection of the entire block, crank, pistons etc.. Running or not, diesels will still deteriorate over time - worse when they don't run. There is a reason that most engine specs list a minimum number hours per year that the engine should be run.

I guess the real mistake was that I should have asked about Zeta here on the forum FIRST !! <grin> BUT we sort of wanted to see her in person, and we wanted to see what Trawlerfest was like.

Oh Well...done and done. Our trip didn't go as planned, but it worked out for the best.

Thanks Everyone!

They showed a rudder pic in the listing.

 

[slowgoesit]

Yeah, that picture in the listing is while sitting on the hard, with the bottom recently done, new zincs, PRISTINE!
The reality, as shown in post # 1 is . . . . somewhat different . . .
Wonder what decade that pic in the listing was taken? Also wonder what other pictures in the listing show the boat in a bygone era . . . .and in much better condition that it is currently in? I would be pissed as hell if the pics in the listing were represented as the current condition, drove some distance and found it boat in it's current state of repair.
That's just laziness on the part of the broker, at a minimum, and extremely deceptive advertising at it's worst.

 

[CharlieO.]

Yeah, that picture in the listing is while sitting on the hard, with the bottom recently done, new zincs, PRISTINE!
The reality, as shown in post # 1 is . . . . somewhat different . . .
Wonder what decade that pic in the listing was taken? Also wonder what other pictures in the listing show the boat in a bygone era . . . .and in much better condition that it is currently in? I would be pissed as hell if the pics in the listing were represented as the current condition, drove some distance and found it boat in it's current state of repair.
That's just laziness on the part of the broker, at a minimum, and extremely deceptive advertising at it's worst.

I agree, unfortunately it happens quite often.

 

[Pprior]

That kind of misleading pictures should be illegal. I realize it's buyer beware but the broker and owner know damn well it doesn't look anywhere near that.

 

[sean9c]

Always had a big dislike for those tombstone shaped windows that are in some DD's like this one. Not sure why anyone thought that was good looking.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm going to push back on the prevailing sentiment here.

Based on one interaction the OP has thrown the broker under the bus. I don't know her and am not a buyer of any kind, but from the OPs half of the story she tried to make it right. The OP wanted her to leave the boat show and take him to a boatyard. And when she managed to correct the mistake, he was 100 miles away (an hour and half?) and wouldn't/couldn't return. His prerogative of course but I cannot imagine a serious buyer would be that narrow. Stuff happens.

As far as the pictures of the bottom - boats in the yard. Would be irresponsible to have it painted while it's stored as many bottom paints cannot dry out for long. As a matter of fact, the new bottom picture is a good negotiation point.

The broker may be a total dunce and the seller an absolute jerk. And the boat may be garbage too. No one knows on the basis of one interaction. I just think it's over the line to make these accusations based on one interaction of an interested buyer who was was probably perceived as overly impatient and therefore a lookie-loo (perception is reality).

I'm sorry the OP didn't get to see the boat. I'm guessing the broker felt bad too. But in my opinion, this thread is way too speculative based on that limited interaction.

Peter

 

[Diep]

Its a steel boat. I would rather due-diligence it in the current condition than freshly painted.

Of course the cost of the work is deferred to the buyer and obviously needs to be factored into the current value/offer.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

I gotta agree with Peter above. The overall interaction with the broker doesnt seem particularly traumatic and the prevailing issue here seems really to be that the OP did not like the condition of the boat. Move on and find one you do like.