Operating in Vicinity of Joystick Controlled Boats

[Gdavid]

I have a question as well as some personal observations for the collective group regarding automated docking control systems (joystick). Has anyone operated their boat in the vicinity of a joystick equipped boats?

I've seen videos of the systems in operation and had observed a significant amount of propwash they generate both in maneuvers and when stationary. The video that stands out is a large (crewed) yacht with an IPS system med-mooring with crew securing lines while both underwater exhaust is boiling out from under the stern and the slip resembles a giant hot tub of convoluted currents. The motors appeared to be running above idle and the dock lines of the neighboring yachts revealed they were significantly affected by the above average wash.

Yesterday, I got to experience the effects first-hand. Within my marina, in transit to my slip, I passed behind a newer Riviera yacht, 50'-65' (off of my starboard side), which had recently pulled bow first into her slip (stationary) and the docking system was clearly engaged due to the visible propwash in spite of being stationary (no current, very slight wind). I passed about 30-35' behind her stern, which put me nearly in the center of the fairway and my boat turned 30 degrees off course. I had plenty of room all around never at risk of hitting anything, but I was surprised at the extent to which my boat was affected.

I'm glad I learned this lesson while I had plenty to room to maneuver. Just prior to my passing behind the Riviera, a 35-40' sailboat passed behind her traveling in the opposite direction and therefore on the opposite side of the fairway. Both this sailboat and myself had been holding station, waiting for this larger yacht to dock and pull fully into her berth (which took considerable time in spite of the modern docking technology). I was glad that I held off and waited for the sailboat to pass by me before proceeding past the Riviera. I was in no hurry and there was no traffic behind me. Were it a busy holiday weekend, I would have had several boats waiting behind me and I may not have given as much space and time to the situation. I'm thankful to have learned this lesson in such a benign situation.

My marina is highly trafficked, and the fuel dock is right in the middle, boats are encouraged to call prior entering the marina for fuel or pump out to mitigate the situation but it is rarely headed and it is common for multiple boats to be holding station for fuel dock space as resident boats squeeze around them to transit the marina. So far, I have only seen smaller yachts using virtual anchoring at this spot, but a large yacht using a similar system in this well trafficked area is something I will do my best to avoid in the future.

 

[Rigamarole]

My Chris-Craft Corsair is joystick driven through two Volvo Penta outdrives. It makes more water movement than a normal twin engine outdrive boat. But it doesn't have a bow thruster. I would guess if you took into account both bow and stern thrusters on these much larger boats it wouldn't be a significant difference.

 

[rslifkin]

I don't personally like how most of the joystick setups maneuver. They're very aggressive with use of throttle and trying to force the boat into position quickly. And they don't maneuver smoothly. Backing into a slip with one isn't a smooth stop while starting to rotate the boat and transitioning to backing. It's just a hard stop, a quick spin, then straight back while using significantly more power than I would consider necessary.

The bubbling with the Volvo IPS drives happens even at idle in neutral though. They exhaust through the drives without an above water relief port in most installs, so the exhaust boils up from under the hull.

 

[Gdavid]

My Chris-Craft Corsair is joystick driven through two Volvo Penta outdrives. It makes more water movement than a normal twin engine outdrive boat. But it doesn't have a bow thruster. I would guess if you took into account both bow and stern thrusters on these much larger boats it wouldn't be a significant difference.

Thanks for sharing, do the outdrives remain parallel when using the joystick or do they rotate outward like the outboard systems do?

 

[Gdavid]

I don't personally like how most of the joystick setups maneuver. They're very aggressive with use of throttle and trying to force the boat into position quickly. And they don't maneuver smoothly. Backing into a slip with one isn't a smooth stop while starting to rotate the boat and transitioning to backing. It's just a hard stop, a quick spin, then straight back while using significantly more power than I would consider necessary.

The bubbling with the Volvo IPS drives happens even at idle in neutral though. They exhaust through the drives without an above water relief port in most installs, so the exhaust boils up from under the hull.

I'm not a fan either and this post isn't a complaint about them, just something to consider when passing by one.

Last summer, there was a boat struggling in the fairway for a considerable amount of time, I learned later that it was a boat with a joystick control being borrowed by the owner's son. The system was malfunctioning, so the father had to ride down and dock the boat using the conventional controls.

 

[SteveK]

In contrast I have only seen one joystick operation. Being in the right place ready to assist a docking boat I was impressed in the silent, non aggressive moves made by the operator who slid the boat into the dock. There was no wild moves or lastly thruster activity.
That was unlike the multiple overused thruster dockings. The grinding & irritating sound woke the dead as boats came in hot, applied thruster too long and then had to reverse to correct. What a gong show. Waiting to witness a smooth landing.
I think the joystick operation in this thread is not normal and was also overused.

 

[Frosty]

This is something I hadn't even considered. Thanks for posting about it, @Gdavid Now I know to keep it in mind.

 

[Comodave]

I think that any system can be used properly or improperly. It all depends on the operator. I have not used a joystick system but I understand that the further you push the joystick the faster it goes. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Bmarler]

We rafted with some friends this summer that had a new cruisers yachts 50 ish footer with Volvo ips and advanced joystick software. The boat could essentially dock itself.
They were using the system to jockey into position and I thought the throttles were pretty aggressive. They were using just one or two clicks of rotation to spin the boat and it seemed to lurch pretty hard as it moved and then held position.didn’t strike me as smooth operation like I would do with the gear and rudder, that’s for sure.
I can imagine it would make pretty aggressive prop wash in confined spaces. I didn’t think to question them at the time, but wish I would have now.

 

[jimlahey]

I don't personally like how most of the joystick setups maneuver. They're very aggressive with use of throttle and trying to force the boat into position quickly. And they don't maneuver smoothly. Backing into a slip with one isn't a smooth stop while starting to rotate the boat and transitioning to backing. It's just a hard stop, a quick spin, then straight back while using significantly more power than I would consider necessary.

The bubbling with the Volvo IPS drives happens even at idle in neutral though. They exhaust through the drives without an above water relief port in most installs, so the exhaust boils up from under the hull.

They are normally very smooth. Sounds like it has not been set up properly

 

[oguidry]

On our Sabre 38 with Volvo IPS there are several different joystick functions. The simplest is using the joystick to control boat heading when using the autopilot.

The next is joystick driving in which the boat goes in the direction in which the joystick is pointed and rotates when the joystick is turned. The maximum speed is pretty limited to probably around four knots. It is pretty smooth.

Finally is assisted docking. Within limits, this function will hold the boat in a position, rotate, and move forward and sideways irrespective of wind or current. It will hold the boat against a dock. The propwash can be substantial and the amount of power used is unpredictable. It is wise for all passengers to be seated during assisted docking because of sudden movements.

I try to dock with joystick driving and use assisted docking only when necessary. Currents are swift in Charleston and assisted docking has really enhanced our experiences.

 

[psneeld]

I would guess that using main propulsion to do the same maneuvers as a boat with thrusters, the angles and thrust of the mains would have to be substantially more than one may think.

Much like a twin trying to move sideways with opposing thrust and significant rudder deflection.

 

[Gdavid]

On our Sabre 38 with Volvo IPS there are several different joystick functions. The simplest is using the joystick to control boat heading when using the autopilot.

The next is joystick driving in which the boat goes in the direction in which the joystick is pointed and rotates when the joystick is turned. The maximum speed is pretty limited to probably around four knots. It is pretty smooth.

Finally is assisted docking. Within limits, this function will hold the boat in a position, rotate, and move forward and sideways irrespective of wind or current. It will hold the boat against a dock. The propwash can be substantial and the amount of power used is unpredictable. It is wise for all passengers to be seated during assisted docking because of sudden movements.

I try to dock with joystick driving and use assisted docking only when necessary. Currents are swift in Charleston and assisted docking has really enhanced our experiences.

Thank you for the clear explanation. I'm pretty sure the mode that I observed was the assisted docking to hold the boat in position because the boat was centered in the slip, remaining in place while dock lines were being secured. I would have expected the propwash to be minimal considering the boat wasn't moving or fighting wind/current but there was significant wash.

 

[Fletcher500]

SoCal is the land of pods/joysticks. There are exceptions, but many of them are newer boaters and the joystick allows them to get a large boat as far as docking is concerned, with minimal past boating experience once they satisfy their insurance carrier with a captain looking over the shoulder for x hours. In joystick mode, the transmissions are banging in and out gear and the pods changing thurst directions, well above idle speed at times to move them laterally or whatever video game maneuver is desired.

In Catalina there is a sand line connecting a bow and stern hawser loop. Pod drive/joystick boaters will get in position, attach the bow hauser, then use the park/skyhook function to stay in place and will often wrap the Prop which damages the mooring lines, and potentially their drives. The Catalina Harbor Patrol watch pod boats closely in general when they are approaching moorings, and will yell at them to not engage the park mode. Catalina Harbor Patrol are not paid enough for the great job they do out there and saving peoples rear end on a daily basis.

 

[Jeff F]

Joystick control has been applied to a variety of systems and boats. I think it's hard to generalize the effects.

I've seen lots operate and have driven a few. There is a big difference between a pod drive and something like a picnic boat with twin jet drives and a bow thruster... With some a skilled operator would be a big improvement, but some actually do the job without too much fuss...

 

[GoneFarrell]

Spring line skills are dead for a lot of skippers. Me included (bow and stern thrusters). Spring lined a lot last century with sailboats before the trawler era.

 

[Fletcher500]

I have about 20 hours in a newer 55 ft Riviera with pod drives teaching the owner how to use the shifters when maneuvering, and the joy stick when he couldn't manage. Salesman of these mention joystick control as one of their primary selling points. As noted, there are exceptions, but many joy stick boats are operated by people who do not have adequate backgrounds and operating experience for these larger, high hp vessels.

 

[DDW]

One difference with spring lines and sailboats is the minimum power available. On most sailboats, you can motor idle forward against a spring line, provided the breast cleat is well placed, and keep the boat tight against the dock (or bring it in tight) with little fuss. I can do this on my sailboat. On my SD trawler, idle forward is sufficient to tear a weak cleat from the dock of perhaps even the pier from the dock if it is a little under maintained. I'd be afraid to do that, certainly to jump off and secure other lines with it left in gear which can be done on the sailboat. The difference between 380 HP on a 39' 25,000 lb boat and 70 HP on a 45' 30,000 lb boat.

In normal docking on the trawler, the gear shift is used to bump forward or reverse in < 1/2 second engagements with the engine at idle. Even than produces substantial wash. So I'd imagine an IPS type drive creating quite a bit of chaos managed by a computer with no boating skills and beta firmware.

 

[rslifkin]

One difference with spring lines and sailboats is the minimum power available. On most sailboats, you can motor idle forward against a spring line, provided the breast cleat is well placed, and keep the boat tight against the dock (or bring it in tight) with little fuss. I can do this on my sailboat. On my SD trawler, idle forward is sufficient to tear a weak cleat from the dock of perhaps even the pier from the dock if it is a little under maintained. I'd be afraid to do that, certainly to jump off and secure other lines with it left in gear which can be done on the sailboat. The difference between 380 HP on a 39' 25,000 lb boat and 70 HP on a 45' 30,000 lb boat.

In normal docking on the trawler, the gear shift is used to bump forward or reverse in < 1/2 second engagements with the engine at idle. Even than produces substantial wash. So I'd imagine an IPS type drive creating quite a bit of chaos managed by a computer with no boating skills and beta firmware.

As long as the cleats look solid I wouldn't be too scared of idling in gear against a spring line. I do it regularly when we dock. My idle thrust is likely a bit lower than yours (340hp engines and higher revving, so idle is a bit lower percentage of max RPM), but it's still significant. Using a midship cleat where you have some rudder applied to get the boat balanced on the spring line also reduces the strain a bit as not all of the thrust is trying to push the boat forward against the line.

 

[klee wyck]

Yeah, spring lines are not dead yet.
I had a great experience with a spring a week ago in Coupeville that got a 65-foot power boat with no thrusters into a 75' slot on a linear dock. I did use short bursts to bring the bow in from 30+ degrees off and agree with DDW that I would have been afraid to leave the transmission engaged full time while pulling on that stern leading spring on that old Coupeville city dock.
The size of the spectator crowd was impressive.......I am pretty sure they expected to see some destruction. I was pleased and relieved to disappoint them though I was never certain they would not be satisfied until we were secure.

 

[Rigamarole]

Thanks for sharing, do the outdrives remain parallel when using the joystick or do they rotate outward like the outboard systems do?

They rotate independent of each other. It's a pretty slick system. I also should point out the system is proportional so slight twists of the knob give you a slower rotation. You can literally go diagonal AND rotate at the same time. Or, if your super lazy, like me sometimes, you can just drive through a marina by pointing the joystick in the direction you want. I mean - super lazy.

 

[Seevee]

I would agree on being gentle with idling with a spring line.

I had a situation once where I pulled a piling from the dock when I was using the spring against a wind to swing into the dock. Fortunately the piling just rolled off my boat with no damage or injuries, but could have been worse.

I did help the dock owner (was a Elks Club, where I was a member and the former dock master). I offered to pay and have a new one installed correctly (the old one was not secured to the dock and the bottom was rotting away.

I found it very hard to get some funding to fix up the dock, when I was dock master, so I gave up.

Fortunately (after a major hurricane it has been rebuilt much better, but I still don't use spring lines there to fight the wind.

Don't know if pods would have helped.

 

[psneeld]

I never feel shy about using a sping, just evaluate the attachment points and how much force you need.

 

[Dougcole]

Though there are exceptions, in general, I find it is wise to give boats like Riveras and Sea Rays as much space as possible when you are forced to be near them at all.

Our boat is super maneuverable (twin engines, no thrusters) but I still use spring lines all the time. When coming off a dock, side tied, I run a spring from somewhere on the dock just forward of midships to the bow cleat, then gently power forward against it with outboard motor in fwd and the inboard motor usually in neutral. Stern pops out, pick up the line off the dock, back away.

 

[Greg QS]

My Boat is equipped with a joystick setup. You can move slow and steady or more aggressively moves if needed. It takes a calm and smooth hand. When I first purchased the boat I was just using the gears and thrusters independently. It worked but the boat needs more the just idel speed to maneuver especially against a wind or current. The joy stick puts all 6 possible operations into one control: 2 throttles, 2 gears, 2 thrusters. I took a bit to get used to it. It really give you a command of the vessel.
I can spin the boat and move for or aft small amounts very smoothly at the same time. I can really make my girl dance.
I dock off a creek after going under a bridge, with no room for another boat., a fast 90deg to port and power over the cross current into the marina. I had a lot of trouble at rush tides just using the gears and thrusters and had no smooth control. The Joystick is a game changer. Spin , twist, slide sideways and for and aft all at the same time with enough to over power the side current. Its really smooth with a steady had. The key is STEADY hand . Jerky movements, jerky boat.

 

[rslifkin]

I think having thrusters in the mix with a joystick helps a lot. Most of the ugly maneuvering I've seen has been from boats with pods or stern drives and no thrusters. So the joystick will try to do a maneuver that would be easy with at least a bow thruster. Without one, it ends up swiveling the drives and applying a bunch of power to get the desired motion. At least with pods, etc. I often see the selling point as the joystick replacing the need for thrusters.

 

[greg_c]

I am 100% intrigued by joystick systems. Would love to try one.

Being a software engineer, I am also terrified of something else to go wrong while navigating in restricted places. To quote a Youtube guy, "more holes in the swiss cheese start to line up"

 

[Ithaka7]

I believe it has a lot to do with how the system is set-up and configured. I am experimenting with a self made joystick application, where I use a remote control, similar to what bait boats use, to drive the throttles/gears/bow-thruster. There are a number of parameters to consider, do you restrict maneuvering to idle speed only, do you increase the speed range based on wind conditions, how quickly you want to turn the boat, how good the gyro rate-of-turn data is, how aggressive the system is when turning the two propellers in different directions. I am pretty sure that any system can be configured to match the owner's need and risk tolerance but few owners will go into the detailed configuration setup. It is a fun project though and it technically allows full remote control from ashore if anyone ever wanted that.

 

[slowgoesit]

It is a fun project though and it technically allows full remote control from ashore if anyone ever wanted that.

I can see it now. Owner spends $$$$$$ on a new boat, fuels it up, and sends it out. Boat comes back a week later with lots and lots of pics and video of the great time it had!

 

[chanprr]

Remote control on a large vessel is convenient to have, and although I committed to having Yachtcontroller over a year ago, I still hesitate to make the final installation. Close maneuvering from the PH helm took some practice and a major dose of judgement, but is now natural to me, with my spouse in the cockpit providing guidance. With the single screw, bow and stern thrusters I tend to depend on the line setup to get off smoothly. In the New Year, I'll make the final decision on Yachtcontroller install or a refund.