Oil Analysis

[charmaine123]

I need some advice on oil analysis
Looking at a vessel with twin perkins with only 1000 hours
Performed great at sea trial
no issues at all
Got results from the oil analysis and one of the engines had elevated aluminum and Iron findings

I'm getting mixed feedback weather this is serious or just something to monitor.
haven't closed yet on the vessel
Any advice or suggestions would be helpful

Thanks in advance

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. I am not a Perkins guy but I think that Trans Atlantic Diesel is the place to ask.

 

[charmaine123]

thank you

 

[O C Diver]

I need some advice on oil analysis
Looking at a vessel with twin perkins with only 1000 hours
Performed great at sea trial
no issues at all
Got results from the oil analysis and one of the engines had elevated aluminum and Iron findings

I'm getting mixed feedback weather this is serious or just something to monitor.
haven't closed yet on the vessel
Any advice or suggestions would be helpful

Thanks in advance

It would help if you posted numbers. Usually there measured in parts per million (PPM). The other issue is were the samples drawn with clean oil or really dirty oil. The last issue speaks to the person drawing the sample. Generally a small tube is inserted in the dip stick tube. If the small tube goes to the bottom of the oil pan, it may collect sediment in the pan and give you a false reading. Normally the small tube is placed against the dip stick. A mark is made with a sharpie to correspond with the top of the dip stick tube, so it's not shoved in too far.

Ted

 

[charmaine123]

It would help if you posted numbers. Usually there measured in parts per million (PPM). The other issue is were the samples drawn with clean oil or really dirty oil. The last issue speaks to the person drawing the sample. Generally a small tube is inserted in the dip stick tube. If the small tube goes to the bottom of the oil pan, it may collect sediment in the pan and give you a false reading. Normally the small tube is placed against the dip stick. A mark is made with a sharpie to correspond with the top of the dip stick tube, so it's not shoved in too far.

Ted

Hi Ted that is very helpful
The reading were Aluminum 21 Iron 63

The samples were drawn with used dirty oil
I'm not sure how they were taken
Are these bad numbers?

 

[lwarden]

Do you know how many hours are on the oil? Do they have any past analysis for these engines? Sound a bit high if low hours, but might be ok if it has something really high between the last change. Did you notice any differences in performance of the engine with the high values?

 

[RedRascal]

My last sample with about 125 hours on Delo 400 30w oil came back at:
Aluminum 3
Iron 14

This was from a Ford Lehman 120 with about 3,500 hours. Good luck with your investigation.

 

[O C Diver]

Hi Ted that is very helpful
The reading were Aluminum 21 Iron 63

The samples were drawn with used dirty oil
I'm not sure how they were taken
Are these bad numbers?

The numbers are elevated / abnormal, especially the Iron. Normally I would expect single digit values, maybe in the low teens. Often if an engine has sat, maybe half a year, you see very low double digits. Rarely, you get an anomaly where a spike occurs, and then the value halfs with each subsequent oil change and analysis.

I had an acquaintance who far (way far) exceeded his oil change and spiked the aluminum to the high 90s, don't remember the iron. He started doing 50 hour oil changes and the metal dropped to normal levels after several changes. Don't know the end result, as he sold the boat three years later.

In commercial applications, we see higher numbers as engines are often pushed harder. In recreational cruising boats, we expect to see lower numbers as the engines aren't worked hard (unless someone neglects several oil changes). What is troubling in your situation is 2 engines which should have roughly comparable numbers.

If it were me, I would resample the oil in that engine (after running it up to operating temperature) to eliminate the possibility of a sampling error (oil tube touching the oil pan).

Possibly ask the owner if there's a reason he would expect such a difference. That might be running one engine while the other wasn't being operated. Maybe that engine had a fouled propeller or a rope in the prop, forcing the engine to run harder. Maybe the last oil change was done with different oil.

If I had an engine with that problem, I would probably do short time oil changes until the metals were normal, and then work back to standard oil changes.

I had an issue with slightly elevated lead levels in my JD. They were within commercial specifications (manufacturer's), but flagged as being elevated by Blackstone Oil Analysis. Wasn't able to resolve it until the warranty ended, when I switched off of John Deere's oil to my old favorite. Numbers became normal after 3 oil changes. Some engines seem to wear better with certain oils.

Ted

 

[charmaine123]

The numbers are elevated / abnormal, especially the Iron. Normally I would expect single digit values, maybe in the low teens. Often if an engine has sat, maybe half a year, you see very low double digits. Rarely, you get an anomaly where a spike occurs, and then the value halfs with each subsequent oil change and analysis.

I had an acquaintance who far (way far) exceeded his oil change and spiked the aluminum to the high 90s, don't remember the iron. He started doing 50 hour oil changes and the metal dropped to normal levels after several changes. Don't know the end result, as he sold the boat three years later.

In commercial applications, we see higher numbers as engines are often pushed harder. In recreational cruising boats, we expect to see lower numbers as the engines aren't worked hard (unless someone neglects several oil changes). What is troubling in your situation is 2 engines which should have roughly comparable numbers.

If it were me, I would resample the oil in that engine (after running it up to operating temperature) to eliminate the possibility of a sampling error (oil tube touching the oil pan).

Possibly ask the owner if there's a reason he would expect such a difference. That might be running one engine while the other wasn't being operated. Maybe that engine had a fouled propeller or a rope in the prop, forcing the engine to run harder. Maybe the last oil change was done with different oil.

If I had an engine with that problem, I would probably do short time oil changes until the metals were normal, and then work back to standard oil changes.

I had an issue with slightly elevated lead levels in my JD. They were within commercial specifications (manufacturer's), but flagged as being elevated by Blackstone Oil Analysis. Wasn't able to resolve it until the warranty ended, when I switched off of John Deere's oil to my old favorite. Numbers became normal after 3 oil changes. Some engines seem to wear better with certain oils.

Ted

Thanks Ted for all this info. Very helpful and appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. We are doing a full mechanical survey with another surveyor and taking another set of samples. Would you suggest changing the oil and running it before hand?
Keep the same oil is what I read from your message above
So you don't think it would be a reason not to proceed with the purchase.... A rebuild is not on the horizon....
He does switch from engine to engine during trips. The boat has been sitting since June

 

[charmaine123]

Do you know how many hours are on the oil? Do they have any past analysis for these engines? Sound a bit high if low hours, but might be ok if it has something really high between the last change. Did you notice any differences in performance of the engine with the high values?

I'm still trying to figure it out. Both engines performed great and the same. Not sure when the last oil change was

 

[O C Diver]

Thanks Ted for all this info. Very helpful and appreciate you taking the time to respond in such detail. We are doing a full mechanical survey with another surveyor and taking another set of samples. Would you suggest changing the oil and running it before hand?
Keep the same oil is what I read from your message above
So you don't think it would be a reason not to proceed with the purchase.... A rebuild is not on the horizon....
He does switch from engine to engine during trips. The boat has been sitting since June

Don't change the oil before sampling!

Switching engines back and forth can be a really bad idea. Assuming the propellers are pitched for twins, you're more than doubling required HP between removing one and the likely propeller slip of the other. You may be in a situation where the owner wasn't diligent about time and the high metal content engine has significantly more hours on this oil than the other.

Do you know how many hours on the high metal oil?

Is the oil black on the dip stick or can you see markings on the stick through the oil?

Sitting for 4 months may be a contributing factor.

Let's see how your second set of oil analysis come back.

Ted

 

[SteveK]

@charmaine123
Ted has given sound advice. Have you bought the boat or still negotiating?
You should supervise a new oil sample being taken as described by Ted and you send it in for testing. Compare that report to the one of concern.
BTW, I tested the oil of a previous new to me boat after purchase to discover that the PO samples were reversed, but once realized the resample took away any concerns.

 

[slowgoesit]

It would be interesting to see the actual reports of BOTH engines. For me, it would not necessarily be a deal breaker, but if the boat is advertised in Bristol condition, it would be cause for concern, and further investigation, as you are doing.

 

[ABfish]

The local CAT dealer takes samples from five pieces of heavy equipment that I own when the equipment is serviced. They never draw a conclusion from one sample. If something is elevated, they say to change the fluid and monitor for trends.

 

[Island Cessna]

Perkins 4.236 most recent sample (Blackstone) 175 hours on oil, Aluminum 7ppm, Iron 16 ppm. Typical of past samples.

 

[charmaine123]

Thank you everyone, really great feedback!! I haven't bought yet but have given refundable deposit pending the outcome of the next sample and mechanical inspection. That is in 10 days so I will revert back then. If anyone has other suggestions just let me know

 

[RedRascal]

One option could be to change oil in the engine in question and have the owner go put X amount of hours on the engine and resample. Where X is determined by the oil sample gurus and mechanics. I've heard of a similar tactic being used with boats that just had a fresh oil change before being listed on the market. You get the owner to go run it then do oil samples.

 

[TBill36]

With oil samples, trends are everything. Ask the owner if he did any sampling previously. If so, the lab may have the old results by engine sn. I know Caterpillar keeps them. Sent in an oil sample and got back it along with all the previously taken results.

 

[O C Diver]

With oil samples, trends are everything. Ask the owner if he did any sampling previously. If so, the lab may have the old results by engine sn. I know Caterpillar keeps them. Sent in an oil sample and got back it along with all the previously taken results.

While I agree that trends are very helpful, an owner who likely does regular maintenance with oil analysis would likely show it as a function of diligence to maintenance. That's what I did when I sold my boat.

IMO, the owner of the OP's boat isn't in that class. Doubt he's ever done oil analysis. If he had half given it a thought, he would have changed the engines, transmissions, and generator (if equipped) oils, filters, and possibly antifreeze. Likely the oil analysis wouldn't have been an issue and the sale would have been concluded by now.

Ted

 

[dannc]

As an FYI, the Blackstone Labs test report shows the current results as well as five previous tests, and the universal average. The previous test results and average help in the evaluation of the results. Blackstone also puts in comments about the test.