Ocean routing powerboat vs sailboat

[cfr]

Hi all, after 50 yrs sailing we can afford to move to a trawler first in the Med but later we like expand our horizon, first arround europe which i know from sailing, later maybe crossing oceans. I am used to use sailing routes , pilot charts and the books from jimmy cornel BUT now i need some advice. Powerboating is much like sailing in respect of current wind direction but we can look into calms, doldrums etc but have to consider swell . If i check the typical crossing from canaries into carib most sailor prefer december but then you have a lot swell from the winter storms in the north, actually april would be better for a trawler.
So in general are there any books or charts for offshore powerboating ? Voyaging under power is very general in this respect
Carsten

 

[SteveK]

as a former sailor now power boater, I would hesitate to go offshore with a power only boat of similar sizing. Just me and redundancy. Plus been there, done that, sail is more comfortable ride in gale force winds.

 

[cfr]

60 ft, 70 ton, 2 man natural aspirated engine, 3000 nm range.....i like my 44ft sailboat and for an ocean passage it might be better but the rest of year we like to have more space etc.

 

[Hippocampus]

Big learning curve with the transition.
First is storm tactics. You don’t have the option of buttoning up the boat and throwing out a JSD to just totally passively wait it out. Even heavy weather tactics are different. Read Dashew and Beebe before heading out. Also intentionally go out in progressively more difficult weather to learn your boat and what works for you.
When passage making on sail your concerns are wind first, waves second and VMG third. On power found it worthwhile to change the order. Waves first, VMG and finally wind. Usually not a problem to carry food for 1 1/2 times the transit on either. And now with watermakers that’s much less of an issue. Still carry enough potable water for 1 1/2 in case watermaker fails but not a problem. But with power fuel is. That enters into your calculations unlike sail.
You are exactly right. My tolerance for weather is less than on sail. On sail there’s always something to grab. There’s fewer open spaces. So you get less bumps and bruises. With a leecloth or bundle board sleeping is easier. Usually there’s no spigot or quarter berth where you are snuggled in and passively secure. Found power a bit more fatiguing in weather. But less in the cold or freezing rain.
I think anyway you get on the water is just fine. Think size matters. If you’re going from mid 40s sail to 60’ power and it’s stabilized you’ll do just fine.

 

[mvweebles]

I know of no book even remotely similar to Cornell's "World Cruising Routes" for power. There is some goodness in Cornell's tome for power cruisers, but not much. Mostly you have to read between the lines for seasons that are not conducive to sailing due to lack of wind.

Our cruising is on pause due to our home in Florida being damaged in a recent hurricane, but I had planned on heading north from the Panama Canal to Florida, about 1000 nms with only a couple possible stopovers, and none that are great. The Caribbean is a difficult sea, especially for a small boat like Weebles (36-foot heavy displacement). My thought process began with the Pilot Charts (May/June is the calmest time of year). Because I had a year advanced notice, I purchased the pro-subscription to PredictWind and tracked the weather systems during from March through June. There are periods of calm, but they are weeks apart so patience is key.

I've also found a few WhatsApp groups to be good sources of local knowledge - sort of the modern day VHF Cruisers Net with skilled hobbyist weather forecaster.

Good luck and welcome to TF. Good group of people.

Peter

 

[cfr]

Good info, you are right with my sailboat i am quite relaxed in the Med and arround europe like biscay and northsea, downwind sailing in 30 knots with a genoa is no problem, in the med often gusts to 40 kn behind islands. But often downwind sailing in calm conditions is really exhausting because of rolling etc. and we have a lot of calms....now motoring approx 40 pct. With sail i dont want to go bigger because my 100 sqm are tough in fresh wind and i like to be sure my wife can handle the boat alone in case something happens. I am not sure we will do a crossing and where, a iceland greenland jump could be also very interesting with short distances but like to think about it.

 

[cfr]

Boating is allways a compromise, i choosed my 44 ft alu boat with fixed deckshouse as a can do it all boat. After 13 years and 8000 nm we only sailed the baltic and arround europe , 4days the biskay to end between greece islands. I learnt that the motion downwind is often too hefty to cook an sleep, so one might think about a cat but their motion upwind is horrible, a semi power is nice in the med but no range, a trawler is slow etc........

 

[cafesport]

Boating is allways a compromise, i choosed my 44 ft alu boat with fixed deckshouse as a can do it all boat. After 13 years and 8000 nm we only sailed the baltic and arround europe , 4days the biskay to end between greece islands. I learnt that the motion downwind is often too hefty to cook an sleep, so one might think about a cat but their motion upwind is horrible, a semi power is nice in the med but no range, a trawler is slow etc........

It’s been almost four decades since I crossed via sail, but I can assure you that if you get the right trawler the downwind motion is more pleasant. Having surfed those swells while hand steering under spinnakers 24/7, our trawler running downwind on auto pilot is a welcomed change.

We choose run our trawler like a sailboat and change course when things get uncomfortable rather than run a shortest distance course. We have the power to stay off lee shores and have the range to cross oceans. We also heed the warnings about gentlemen not sailing to weather. Our polars are pretty stable until around force 7. Trawler ends are not as trim as the old Van de Stadt ketch I previously cruised but the additional comfort provided seems a good trade off.

 

[omoore]

Hi all, after 50 yrs sailing we can afford to move to a trawler first in the Med but later we like expand our horizon, first arround europe which i know from sailing, later maybe crossing oceans. I am used to use sailing routes , pilot charts and the books from jimmy cornel BUT now i need some advice. Powerboating is much like sailing in respect of current wind direction but we can look into calms, doldrums etc but have to consider swell . If i check the typical crossing from canaries into carib most sailor prefer december but then you have a lot swell from the winter storms in the north, actually april would be better for a trawler.
So in general are there any books or charts for offshore powerboating ? Voyaging under power is very general in this respect
Carsten

 

[omoore]

Assuming a well-found boat, the key to a safe and relatively comfortable passage is a private weather routing service. The late Bruce Kessler relied on weather routing on his circumnavigation aboard the legendary Zopilote. Milt Baker, founder of Bluewater Books, has gone Transatlantic with his Nordhaven and shepherded a small fleet on the 2007 Med Bound Rally:Milt Baker, Bermuda bound. You will find other articles of interest on that site.

 

[captmikem]

Once you get down around Cape Verde there are no gales in Nov Dec Jan. On a sailboat I usually wate til late december early Jan as the trades are strongest then. It is quite possibly the easiest most comfortable passage on this earth, no bad weather, warm and sunny follwing wind and sea, little to no traffic and easy navigation. I have made this passage in sail and power many times and always enjoyed it. That said, I have often picked up a gale of wind from Gib down to Las Palmas. I have also crossed from Gib to St. Johns Newfoundland in July in a motor yacht and never saw anything over 10kts of wind.
Good luck with your adventure, usually the anxiety is far worse than the voyage. While you are in the med don't overlook Turkey... great place, I wintered in Antalya once and really enjoyed it there.

M

 

[cfr]

thanks for your info, it is time to leave the med and keave the comfort zone a liitle bit, life arround greek islands are too nice. need some adventure befire returning again. will be able to buy a 60 ft trawler next autumn....fits to our age of 61 years....

 

[long-cours.62]

Hi all, after 50 yrs sailing we can afford to move to a trawler first in the Med but later we like expand our horizon, first arround europe which i know from sailing, later maybe crossing oceans. I am used to use sailing routes , pilot charts and the books from jimmy cornel BUT now i need some advice. Powerboating is much like sailing in respect of current wind direction but we can look into calms, doldrums etc but have to consider swell . If i check the typical crossing from canaries into carib most sailor prefer december but then you have a lot swell from the winter storms in the north, actually april would be better for a trawler.
So in general are there any books or charts for offshore powerboating ? Voyaging under power is very general in this respect
Carsten

When I taken a look for a Atlantic crossing for a motor boat in direction of West Indies, I note May could be better for a motor boat and stay higher in latitude than a sailing boat in December.
But could cross also from Cap Verde to Brasil. Cap Verde to Brazil it is only around 1400nm but ...better to refuelling in Venezuela than Brazil
Long time ago "Meteo France" commercialize something like "pilot chart" on a cd rom unfortunately it dont work any more with the more recent window. and Meteo France don't make any new version.
But remains the ...Pilot Chart

 

[long-cours.62]

60', twin engine, good tankage I saw this one :
https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/808735/TRAWLER-EXPLORER-60.html

We even propose to them to exchange with our bigger one ...but not interested :-(

 

[cfr]

its nice but the galley and food storage is much too small, so the galley has to be relocated which is quite complicated. as so often many dutch boats look so nice from outside, have good technical systems but often a very small galley and a lot of round sofas, coffeetable for 10 etc. seems they like to entertain and eat outside....

 

[long-cours.62]

If you want big storage ... our lazaret could be interesting for you
something like 15 sqm

Our former Doggerbank could be an interesting choice for you Nice sized kitchen + a " smaller kitchen where all "smelly cooking could be done : fixed equipment for "French Frie" ( the first owner was a ...Belgian guy ) fixed equipment for grill; oven , washing machine dryer,
17.50mx 5.00x1.60....3 natural engine two 'side engine 65 hp and 220 hp main engine , 10500 lt diesel tank

 

[long-cours.62]

Note this Doggerbank had under the floor of the kitchen storage for food around 2 m3
and lower between tank storage for for fruit and vegetable.

 

[cfr]

yes this looks quite interesting good.......i am in contact with a doggersbank 60 offshore, but seems the owner not ready to sell.....

 

[Ithaka7]

There are very few trawlers in the Med. It is just not the style. You would want a flybridge cruiser. Speed always helps to make your passage in a good weather window. We have done some long voyages around the Greek islands. You can easily cover 300-350 nm per 24h including refueling time. This significantly expands the reach and maximizes the time at the destination.

It is relatively easy to achieve a planing range of 700-800 nm by carrying extra fuel on any decent motorboat. Even if your speed drops to 15-16 nm (just planing) with occasional breaks for squals, you can still do 300 nm/day and it is unlikely the weather will go bad in three days. This is just impossible on a trawler.

If you want to cross the ocean (2,700 nm), that is really hard on a powerboat. You have to go at displacement speed (say 7 knots over water, 1 knot current, you are still looking at 14 days). Fuel will be easier at displacement speed but still a lot of fuel to carry. You can overload the boat with fuel for the first 1/3 of the passage when you will have a better weather forecast but it is a very risky thing to attempt. Most people will enjoy the powerboat in the Med then ship it to Florida and continue from there (or sell one, buy another at the right voltage). You can even do a circumnavigation and enjoy an amaizng time in each of the cruising areas if you ship the boat twice (Atlantic, Pacific) and then go up the Indian coast.

 

[cfr]

done the Med with 6 kn sailing speed and no problems, no problems with squalls nice sailing up to 35 kn when all powerboats are in the marina. in the last 10 years i saw only a handfull powerboats anchoring and travelling the Med . only many lifeaboard sailboats. normally powerboats going out for 1 or 2 nights and back to a safe marina. different people i guess. we stay 160 days at anchor a season and my trawler will do the same....shipping is approx 40 k from palma to florida but 80 k to Alaska. selling and buying is no option for me

 

[long-cours.62]

There are very few trawlers in the Med. It is just not the style. You would want a flybridge cruiser. Speed always helps to make your passage in a good weather window. We have done some long voyages around the Greek islands. You can easily cover 300-350 nm per 24h including refueling time. This significantly expands the reach and maximizes the time at the destination.

It is relatively easy to achieve a planing range of 700-800 nm by carrying extra fuel on any decent motorboat. Even if your speed drops to 15-16 nm (just planing) with occasional breaks for squals, you can still do 300 nm/day and it is unlikely the weather will go bad in three days. This is just impossible on a trawler.

If you want to cross the ocean (2,700 nm), that is really hard on a powerboat. You have to go at displacement speed (say 7 knots over water, 1 knot current, you are still looking at 14 days). Fuel will be easier at displacement speed but still a lot of fuel to carry. You can overload the boat with fuel for the first 1/3 of the passage when you will have a better weather forecast but it is a very risky thing to attempt. Most people will enjoy the powerboat in the Med then ship it to Florida and continue from there (or sell one, buy another at the right voltage). You can even do a circumnavigation and enjoy an amaizng time in each of the cruising areas if you ship the boat twice (Atlantic, Pacific) and then go up the Indian coast.

With our former LC62 we could made 2700 nm at 9.8 kts + current and it will remain 2700 lt in the tanks (without any extra tankage). You said 1 kts current (may be optimist) but in this case the 2700 nm need only 10 days and 10 hours. ( with our 50sqm of sail it could be even little less or less consumption).
With our actual bigger and heavier 2700 nm at 8.5kts + current (1 kts as you said) could be done in 11 days 10 hours and remains 2250 liter in the normal tanks . Probably we could move at 9 kts + current. And if we need (don't know for witch reason) do a "rapid" crossing in med it could be done at 15 kts ...but the fuel bill become xxl !

To do rapid crossing and low consumption 25 years ago I play to made a design of a minimalist motor trimaran (22mX7m) ( Joubert made the hull ligne) small roof, minimum vindage... the volume of a 12 m motor boat

 

[Mako]

OP you should pick up a copy of this book:
Heavy Weather Powerboating
November 15, 2011
by Hugo Montgomery-Swan