Noob Question: Wind & Weather

[Chris M]

Hi guys,

Just wondering, when you're checking the weather reports before an outing, what wind speeds start to make you think, "Ehh, maybe I should wait."? What kind of weather gives you waves etc that are just a bit too much to want to deal with? And are the waves, and a lack of visibility, the only issues in poor weather? How much can your visibility be shortened before it gets uncomfortable and you need to start relying on your GPS charts etc? Down to a couple of kilometres? Five? Ten?

If you're sailing into a headwind that is going around 12 km/h, and you only cruise at about 7 knots, how much will it hold you back? Can you still make headway against it, assuming the current isn't also against you?

Also, can you recommend a device or chart or something that shows where to watch out for currents? Looking at the maps and things I've got, I wouldn't have realized that either the Skookumchuck or Dodds Narrows would be passages that I'd have to wait for the tides to be right to be able to transverse. Local knowledge was able to advise me, thankfully; but I'd also like to have something I can consult any time that would flag potentially dangerous areas in my path before I get there! I'd like to develop the local knowledge myself, but not the hard way, which is what is going to happen if I don't keep asking you guys, or find something else that labels them accurately.

And speaking of asking y'all, I'm going to be taking "My Way" from Lund over to Campbell River on the 15th (which looks like it'll be a half-decent day, with winds only around 9 km/h or so, from the north, gusts up to 14 km/h). Is there anything I need to watch out for, aside from ferry wake? I've been told that it's a very straightforward trip, but I'd still like to confirm that with you guys before I believe that, heh, especially given the time of year.

Thanks!

 

[Doug]

OceanConnect
Check out this website. This a new and evolving source of the information you are looking for. Data is available from the website and also by using their Apple and Android apps.
Fisheries and Oceans Canada’s publications *Sailing Directions” and “Tides and Current Tables” for your area are downloadable from their website.

 

[Chris M]

Oh fantastic, thanks!

 

[RCook]

We spend summers cruising the Inside Passage, from Puget Sound to Glacier Bay, in a boat the size of yours. We generally prefer to avoid winds 20 knots or greater, but there are many other factors.

A key one: is the wind's direction opposed to the direction of the current? If so, waves will be taller and steeper, maybe by a lot. They're sometimes called square waves. Wind at only 15-20 opposed to even only a couple of knots of current can make for a lumpy ride, especially if you're traveling in the direction of the current.

Fetch (the length of water the wind has been working on to build waves). Strait of Georgia in a SE wind offers lots of fetch, so the waves are typically bigger as you get further NW. How long the wind has been working on that fetch is a factor too.

Your tolerance for rolling in beam seas: crossing the Strait of G with a NW or SE wind on your beam can become pretty unpleasant in a boat like ours.

12 knots on the nose would not slow me significantly - above factors are the issues.

Where there are strong currents is spelled out in cruising guides, and many chartplotters show them as well, often including current expected at the moment and future times and dates as well. We find that many narrows are easy to traverse if the current is only 2-4 knots. Some are easy with 6 knots.

Visibility: We often encounter heavy rain or fog which greatly reduces visibility. Radar and chartplotter, and even better with AIS, make travel in limited visibility practical. Sometimes I can see only a few hundred feet ahead of me, or even much less. Travel is still do-able, but it requires concentrated attention, and can be stressful if it lasts very long, or there's lots of other traffic.

 

[SteveK]

Trick question? 12km = 6.5 knots

If you're sailing into a headwind that is going around 12 km/h, and you only cruise at about 7 knots, how much will it hold you back? Can you still make headway against it, assuming the current isn't also against you?

Try to keep your measurements nautical. Or are you just trolling us?

 

[MV Moira]

Another view: I pay more attention to wave height and angle than wind. We were out in our previous boat (which was a sailboat, but still...) in 35-50kt winds on the beam but the seas were flat because the wind was coming off the land only a couple of km upwind.

 

[Mac2]

The boat makes a difference. What do you have?

 

[RedRascal]

A few things:
-Get a cruising guide for your area, it will answer a few of your questions you've been asking in various threads. You'll get info about what to watch for and don't need to wait around for someone to respond to your question. This can be good if you are in the thick of things, you can reference the guide right away.
-If you have Navionics, zoom in to the detail just west of Cape Mudge by Campbell River. You should see a "wave" icon you can click on with more info and also a red warning triangle with detail that talks about wind against current. So you ask your question here and in post #4 RCook talks about wind against current but in Navionics you can see where on the chart it happens bad enough that it is noted on the chart.
-In general I would say if the wind is less that 10 knots you'll most likely have a comfortable ride in all directions travel, 10-15knots of wind and angles of travel may start to become uncomfortable and yep above 15 knots you'll have a harder time finding a comfortable ride. Let's say it's blowing 20 knots on your nose you may find that the boat will go 7 knots into the wind but the ride may be really bouncy and uncomfortable. You may have a better ride at 5-6 knots into that type of weather. So when you ask if the wind will hold you back the answer may be no because the boat can still do 7 knots but you may choose to slow down because you do not like the ride. Every boater has a different tolerance for slowing down or when they do or don't go out. Also 15 knots of wind in the middle of the Strait of Georgia will most likely be worse than 15 knots in the more protected water off of Lund. There are many variables but it will all get easier the more trips you get under your belt.
-Depending on sea state(wind and waves) you may find it too uncomfortable to go in a straight line route, you may need to zig zag or tack like a sailboat would do to get a comfortable ride. So if you are taking a beating you can often improve the situation by tacking along your route. Also in your area you may be able to choose routes that use islands to block the wind and waves. If the wind is blowing from the north go around the south side of an island instead of the north side. That can give you some relief.

 

[Chris M]

Trick question? 12km = 6.5 knots

If you're sailing into a headwind that is going around 12 km/h, and you only cruise at about 7 knots, how much will it hold you back? Can you still make headway against it, assuming the current isn't also against you?

Try to keep your measurements nautical. Or are you just trolling us?

Sorry; I'm not quite used to thinking in knots yet, and the weather network website I've been checking for the weather (because it gives it up to 14 days advance, where the nautical ones---which I'm sure are much more precise, mind you--only seem to give predictions for 2-3 days in advance, and I need to plan further out than that) gives it in km/h, so it honestly didn't occur to me to put it all in knots, but you're right, I should keep the system consistent, whichever one I use (and knots make much more sense than kms in this case, since it's what boats use).

Not trolling at all, just trying to think straight and failing, ha ha.

Yes, what I meant was, I know that if you're moving forward at about 7 knots (which is what my boat cruises at), but are heading into a current flowing against you at about the same speed, you're basically going to be stuck in place, so how much of a similar effect does the wind blowing against you have? It sounds, though, that unless you get quite a lot more of a headwind versus your speed forward, the main issue is the waves it raises, especially if the wind is also blowing against the current.

Which makes sense; but I'm grateful to have explicitly pointed out as most of the boating I've done has been on rivers and smaller lakes, where the wind is much less of a factor.

I should probably find a good beginning boating book instead of bugging you guys all the time, but I'm learning a lot and enjoy interacting with you. Plus I love my boat and enjoy talking about her lol.

 

[psneeld]

Water because it's denser has a much greater effect, almost total. So your forward speed over the ground is reduced by a true head current by whatever the current speed is.

Headwind will affect the boat in varying degrees depending on the area of the boat being pushed against. Some boats will be affected more or less than others. But wind affects boats much less so than current till it is very strong, say 20+ knots or even much greater. The stronger the wind the larger the chop/waves which will stat to affect the boat more and more too.

 

[Portage_Bay]

....and the weather network website I've been checking for the weather (because it gives it up to 14 days advance, where the nautical ones---which I'm sure are much more precise, mind you--only seem to give predictions for 2-3 days in advance, and I need to plan further out than that)

I won't make plans on weather predictions more that a few days out especially in the stormy season. They simply cannot be relied upon to make plans.

In additions to the guide books mentioned previous I recommend "Local Knowledge" by Kevin Monahan. He discusses how to manage strong currents especially some of the famously challenging rapids in your area. If it hasn't already been mentioned Ports and Passes which uses official Canadian and US data for tides and currents. You'll need to purchase a new book each year. Alternatively for Canadian tides and currents you can download free of charge the data you need from Canadian Tide and Current Tables.

Many plotters, hardware or software, will give you some tide and current data. Some more accurate than others. I will use plotter data in the first effort of planning a cruise then go to the official data for the important areas as a double check.

There is a lot of information out there. It can take a while to get a handle on it but well worth the effort.

 

[RedRascal]

Bad idea to rely on a 14 day forecast for planning this time of year. 3-7 days is about all I would work with. I usually go between Environment Canada and AccuWeather when in BC. For wind I look at Windy.com but Predict Wind is similar. When looking at a wind forecast they are for an area of 5-15km in size so don't trust them to a particular cove you plan to anchor in. They are good though for giving you an idea if it's going to blow and when. However I was just out on an overnighter Wednesday and the forecast said Thursday was going to be 5-10 from the north and we had more like 15-20 from the north. The forecast was wrong just even looking forward 12 hours.

Two books come to mind that may be helpful to you are a Wagoner Guide https://www.amazon.ca/2026-WAGGONER...6680&sprefix=wagooner+cruising,aps,262&sr=8-2

and Chapman's boating book https://www.amazon.ca/Chapman-Pilot...=1762116768&sprefix=Chapmans+c,aps,187&sr=8-1

Tons of information in both and the Waggoner will cover you if you decide to head south to visit the San Juans. There are many cruising guides, Waggoner just happens to be one I can remember at the moment.

 

[RedRascal]

Here is a real life example of what current can do to boat speed. Running through this passage I was at an engine RPM that would give us 7 knots of boat speed under calm conditions and neutral current. However there was a 5+ knot current against us so it slowed us down to 1.7 knots. This is a view from Navionics and has that wave icon I mentioned up thread. The boat is the red triangle and the wave icon is just above the boat icon with a green circle, if you click on those icons they usually have more local information about conditions you may experience in that location. With some passages you can buck a current and get through okay others can be flat out dangerous so it's probably best to start out running passages at slack. On this afternoon slack was around 3pm which you can derive from the current chart at the bottom of the picture. I don't know what you have for electronics but getting Navionics on your phone or a tablet would probably help you out because of all the info it contains.

 

[Chris M]

The boat makes a difference. What do you have?

I've got a 1977 37' C&L Grand Mariner trawler.

A few things:
-Get a cruising guide for your area, it will answer a few of your questions you've been asking in various threads. You'll get info about what to watch for and don't need to wait around for someone to respond to your question. This can be good if you are in the thick of things, you can reference the guide right away.
-If you have Navionics [...]

That's great advice, thank you!

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I know that if you're moving forward at about 7 knots (which is what my boat cruises at), but are heading into a current flowing against you at about the same speed, you're basically going to be stuck in place, so how much of a similar effect does the wind blowing against you have?

No. If you are heading into a 7 knot current with a trawler like yours (and mine), you won't be stuck in place. You will be spinning in eddies and wished you understood how to read current tables and had stayed away from that area until the current changed.

You sound like the perfect candidate for some boating classes. My wife attended several through the US Power Squadron (in person) and definitely got her money's worth (and I also benefitted). You might have something local or there are online organizations that have navigation and safety courses. It would take you weeks to ask enough questions here to get just part of the info provided by a boating course. Some of the courses even have on-the-water boat handling sessions. Again, money well spent.

 

[SteveK]

Think of it this way. Once you know what speed to expect from a given RPM then you know the boat is doing that speed through the water whenever at that RPM is set (until bottom growth). Say you are going against an 8 knot current doing 7 knots, your speed over ground is -1 knots.
Also knowing your boat speed at that RPM can tell you the speed of wind and current affecting forward travel.
Dodds narrows, Active pass can get moving at 7 knots so planning ahead is important.

 

[SeaDogAK]

I want to echo and emphasize the caution above about Cape Mudge. When the wind is blowing up the Strait of Georgia a healthy chop can build, and if that meets a tidal current coming out of Campbell River, it can form a substantial tide rip - large, steep standing waves just south of Cape Mudge that can make it dangerous to get into Campbell River. With a wind from the south you need to time your trip to avoid reaching that point when the current is running against the waves.

I have personal experience with this. Some years ago we were running a 37’ Tollycraft from Nanaimo to Campbell River in a stiff southerly wind which built to about 4’ following seas. As we approached Cape Mudge there was about a 10’ standing wave that ran the full width of the entrance to Campbell River. There was no turning around and no avoiding it, it was late in the day and there is nowhere to retreat to, so we tried to pick the lowest point and ran the wave. Punched the throttle as we hit the wave to climb up and over, which worked fine except for the log hiding in the wave that went “thump thump” under the boat as we went up and over, miraculously missing props and rudders.

That was probably as terrified as I’ve ever been in a boat, and I would not recommend repeating what we did.

 

[DDW]

I think the first step is to buy the Waggoners guide (2025 edition will do as things don't change very much year to year, but you could wait until Jan - Feb and get the 2026). This has a description of transiting just about anything in your area within a week's travel. In addition in the front and throughout are articles answering many of your questions and a general education on cruising in the area. Very much worth the money. Next get a copy of Ports and Passes, which has current and tide tables for the whole area. You may want to wait for the 2026 version ( you must have the up to date version), but borrow a 2025 for your upcoming trip. This takes a little while to get familiar with, but it will have current predictions for every pass and strait. You should assume that any even slightly narrow section of water in the area will have reversing currents. Some at 0.5 knots can be ignored, others at 15 knots cannot without the real risk of death. Broadly speaking, the tides flow towards and away from the Desolation Sound area from both directions, reversing every 6 hours but there are many exceptions and subtleties.

In addition to the weather you want to time your approach to Campbell river to coincide with the current, which is substantial in the area. The Lund end has little enough current to ignore most of the time.

 

[Chris M]

That's some excellent info, guys, thanks!

It's gonna be the stuff I don't know that I don't know that'll get me into trouble, for sure! I don't know if the info will hold two weeks out, but if it does the wind will be from the north, at least, thankfully. I'll keep a close eye on it and the tide for sure!

I'm definitely going to order pretty much everything you've all recommended off Amazon*; I dislike dealing with them but it'll get here soon enough that I'll have a chance to go through them before I expect to do the trip.

I'm taking some Small Vessel handling courses shortly, and I think I will definitely need to take some online navigation courses too! I'm lucky enough to be in the same area as the Comox branch of the Canadian Power Squadron. I know they have some online courses (I've already looked into them) which I'm going to be signing up for; I believe in January is their next in-person course which I was kind of waffling over (I think most of the info is available in their online courses, which of course I can do on my own schedule), but I agree with you guys: the actual boat-handling practice will definitely be worth the cost!

*I'll see if the library has the 2025 edition if Ports and Passes, and order the 2026 one in January, since it's not a cheap book.

 

[mvweebles]

Back when I was a newbie, I lived aboard a Uniflite 42 with full enclosure at a marina south of Candlestick Park, well know for high winds. I was terrified to take the boat out because I knew that on the afternoon, I'd face high winds. To be fair, even knowing what I know today, the afternoon winds would still scare the hell out of me. But it was worse then.

My point is a lot depends on where you are and the details of the question. We're in southern Mexico right now and next stop will be a 60-ish hour run to El Salvador. I'm more concerned with wave height, period, and direction. "Square" seas - period and height being roughly the same (5' @ 5-seconds) really get my attention. 5' @ 15-seconds is a milk run.

Part of the reason boating is so much fun is it's a lifelong learning curve. You can get tips from old farts but experience provides context. I'm still learning (and frankly, re-learning what I've forgotten).

Peter

 

[SteveK]

I do not think this has been mentioned.
Between Campbell River and Comox, about halfway opposing currents butt heads. It is a separation line current flowing from there to Campbell River is flowing away towards Comox and the reverse as well. Timing as best as possible leaving Campbell River with a southerly flow may find a northerly flood and vice versa. This is where current from Juan De Fuca meets current from Port Hardy end of the Island.

 

[DDW]

You might snoop around the dock for Ports and Passes 2025. A large percentage of people (at least the ones that actually go out on their boat) will have one, and many will have quit for the year. I'd give you mine except I am 900 miles away from it right now. Yeah, it is pricey and the information can be found for free on the internet, but the P&P is a nice consistent presentation right there with you on the boat.

 

[RedRascal]

Nice to see your enthusiasm about trying to gain knowledge. I'd actually hold off on Ports and Passages this season because you can probably get what you need via the web for the rest of this season, but if you can get a 2025 freebie cool. Here is the link for Seymour Narrows, https://tides.gc.ca/tides/sites/tides/files/2024-11/2025-current-08108.pdf Navionics also has the currents built into the app and will give you current before and after the narrows. Here is the Navionics site, not sure if it will resolve in CAD or USD in your browser Navionics Boating App | U.S. & Canada - Lakes, Rivers and Coastal
On Nov. 15th slack is at 1:29 pm at Seymour Narrows so that should work nicely for making the move from Lund.

Edit-Updated with correct link and timing for slack.

 

[luna]

Here is the link for Seymour Narrows, https://tides.gc.ca/tides/sites/tides/files/2024-11/2025-current-07745.pdf

On Nov. 15th slack is at 2:20 pm at Seymour Narrows so that should work nicely for making the move from Lund.

When I click on the above link it opens to Second Narrows not Seymour Narrows.

Your 2:20 pm time is also for Second Narrows on the 15th.

The current "Turns" at 1:29 pm PST on Saturday 15th of Nov./25 at Seymour Narrows.

 

[RedRascal]

Luna for the save...boy what a miss on my part. I am questioning my eyes:-( Correct link for Seymour https://tides.gc.ca/tides/sites/tides/files/2024-11/2025-current-08108.pdf And here is the link to the current tables Current Predictions By Station

So yes a 1:29pm slack on the 15th and the current is ripping though there on the 15th. 10 knots later in the day is nothing to mess with in a trawler.

 

[SeaDogAK]

Unless I’m mistaken, going from Lund to Campbell River you won’t be going through Seymour Narrows. Slack current at Campbell River or off Cape Mudge, if I’m reading the tables right, is about 15 minutes later than at Seymour Narrows.

 

[luna]

You are right Lund to Campbell River you don't go as far North as Seymour Narrows.

Our government does not seem to publish, even as a Secondary Station, a Current Table listing for Campbell River or Cape Mudge.
Where did you find this information on when the current turns off of C.R. and/or Cape Mudge?

 

[RedRascal]

Navionics has it. This evening(Nov. 2nd) it shows slack off Cape Mudge at 9:11pm and in the table I linked above slack at Seymour is 8:56pm. The delta may vary between ebb vs. flood.

 

[SeaDogAK]

Yes, I also found it on Navionics. However, I use Navionics current information with a lot of caution because I haven’t always found them to be very accurate in practice.

 

[slowgoesit]

Waggoner is mentioned upthread for a reference. We initially bought their book(s), but we found that the Douglass Guides are MUCH better, especially when it comes to updating info on an annual basis. Waggoner still referenced their best pick for lunch in the Gulf Islands several years (editions) after it had burned down for example. Douglass Guides is far superior IMHO.