New boat - upgrading electronics (on a budget)

[Iggy]

Sorry, when I said "live". I mean boat to boat. No from an app.

 

[SteveK]

Interesting. I’ll admit I never did a time comparison on the SF lite app. Basically used it to cross commercial traffic lanes.

And for that it is close enough to be aware of proximity of other vessel. I will add in BVI the boat had proper AIS built in. It reported the same, the target vessel(s) I watched were not exactly as depicted on screen. ie: a boat safely passed in front of me, then AIS showed it on collision course.
Caveat, That was my only experience with onboard AIS.

 

[boomerang]

Since you're on a budget, do your electronics have to be new? There's plenty of used packages in great condition for sale that have been taken off of boats for electronics upgrades. When I was in the business, I outfitted several of my boats for a fraction of the price of new with used electronics that I took on trade for new electronics and was absolutely happy with the performance. Keep an eye on this forum's classified section, craigslist, Facebook marketplace or my least favorite, ebay. Or check with electronics dealers to see what they have.

 

[SteveK]

Since you're on a budget, do your electronics have to be new? There's plenty of used packages in great condition for sale that have been taken off of boats for electronics upgrades. When I was in the business, I outfitted several of my boats for a fraction of the price of new with used electronics that I took on trade for new electronics and was absolutely happy with the performance. Keep an eye on this forum's classified section, craigslist, Facebook marketplace or my least favorite, ebay. Or check with electronics dealers to see what they have.

Even on this forum boats are bought with working electronics but they opt to get a suite of matched items. That is a lot of good equipment to build from.

 

[DDW]

I dont see how live AIS can be delayed by minutes. Yes, its time based on Txing. Its a very short burst of info less than one 0.3 kilobytes.

It can and does. Class A has priority and transmits much more frequently. Class B transmits less frequently to begin with, depends on finding a free slot, and if it misses a slot or two (or collides) there can be gaps of minutes. I have seen this quite frequently tracking both an AIS and radar target. Even 30 seconds can be significant in crowded water. A runabout doing 25 knots is going 42 feet/second. In 30 seconds (the class B time interval) they are a quarter mile from where the target is sitting on your screen. Miss one transmission and it is half a mile. It is not unusual to see this.

 

[Iggy]

As I mentioned, Its timed based Txing. But there is no delay in live vs an app. With the app, there is a delay because the info need to go to a ground base. Then retransmitted over cellular. This is what the topic is about. Not class A vs class B or B+. Now under 2 knots, that would be 3 minutes which is what you might be referring too.

In other words, boat to boat, it is what it is based on, speed and class. Is a normal delay that can't be helped. But now add ground bases and reTxing. You just added a delay that does not need to be there. This is the topic of the delay.

 

[DDW]

Well, there is a delay from current actual position to last transmitted position, even live. And it is a bit unpredictable but can be minutes. And yes, a round trip through the internet adds to that delay without question, and you will not know how much unless you have a live radar target to compare it to (or even visual).

I find it a little amusing that some people won't leave the marina without the radar and AIS running. Before we had such things, we didn't really run into each other all that often.

 

[SeaWoof]

The base Simrad GO9 would be a good option for you. Enables decent chart plotter integration. However, while the 9" screen can display split screen plotter and radar (verify - I think it can split display but I'm not sure), the radar screen is so small it's not really usable. I don't remember if they make a 12" in the low end bundle but would definitely recommend that.

That said, inexpensive radars are only marginally helpful. I have a Simrad EVO3 with their digital radar 36-mile and it's better than nothing but doesn't come close to picking targets compared to a larger, more powerful unit. I wish I'd spent more on the antenna. Just setting your expectations that somehow radar will give you vision in the fog. It will assist but will only reduce the stress slightly.

AIS is becoming ubiquitous. For $1k it's perhaps the best deal in marine electronics. Get the full B+ tx/rx version.

Peter

I could be wrong, but i believe that the Go9 supports wifi screen mirroring, which would mean I could use my larger 11" tablet to display whatever is on the main display - maybe be a pretty good compromise?

 

[mvweebles]

I could be wrong, but i believe that the Go9 supports wifi screen mirroring, which would mean I could use my larger 11" tablet to display whatever is on the main display - maybe be a pretty good compromise?

Probably requires the Simrad App to do this. You may want to ask around - I've tinkered with it on my system nothing serious. I found the App to be wonky and unstable. But I may not have had the patience to get through a learning curve (a good possibility).

Peter

 

[Iggy]

Well, there is a delay from current actual position to last transmitted position, even live. And it is a bit unpredictable but can be minutes. And yes, a round trip through the internet adds to that delay without question, and you will not know how much unless you have a live radar target to compare it to (or even visual).

I find it a little amusing that some people won't leave the marina without the radar and AIS running. Before we had such things, we didn't really run into each other all that often.

Now maybe I have been shielded a little? Here in Boston Harbor the AIS targets are very close to what my radar is showing. Now I am only taking about moving targets. You can see the AIS targets move to catch up to the radar targets. But in the inner harbor, you can not do more that 10 knots. On the way to the Cap Cod Canal the target are farther apart and moving a lot faster. DDW's point I understand better now too. But on a 3 to 5 mile display, its harder to see the distance between the 2 types of targets. Thank you DDW!

The GO9 can do mirroring. I tried it once with the off chance that I could display different screens. Having never used it before. But it is a exact copy/mirror of the MFD's screen.

 

[mvweebles]

Now maybe I have been shielded a little? Here in Boston Harbor the AIS targets are very close to what my radar is showing. Now I am only taking about moving targets. You can see the AIS targets move to catch up to the radar targets. But in the inner harbor, you can not do more that 10 knots. On the way to the Cap Cod Canal the target are farther apart and moving a lot faster. DDW's point I understand better now too. But on a 3 to 5 mile display, its harder to see the distance between the 2 types of targets. Thank you DDW!

The GO9 can do mirroring. I tried it once with the off chance that I could display different screens. Having never used it before. But it is a exact copy/mirror of the MFD's screen.

Do you know if you can display something other than what's on the MFD? The OP was hoping he could display Chart Plotter on one, Radar on his tablet (example).

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Well, there is a delay from current actual position to last transmitted position, even live. And it is a bit unpredictable but can be minutes. And yes, a round trip through the internet adds to that delay without question, and you will not know how much unless you have a live radar target to compare it to (or even visual).

I find it a little amusing that some people won't leave the marina without the radar and AIS running. Before we had such things, we didn't really run into each other all that often.

Totally agree. I learned on paper charts, a compass, and a clock. If you wanted electronics, you added a light to the compass.

 

[ranger58sb]

I assumed the app was duplicating what you are seeing on your AIS screen. Are you saying you get bad AIS readings on your screen? Otherwise the app and dedicated AIS are no different in my mind.

Not even close.

It's not that app readings -- the ones you see -- are incorrect; it's that the app might not be displaying all the AIS-transmitting boats around you, and the reports they do show are even later than what we'd see on our AIS screen.

-Chris

 

[ranger58sb]

As I mentioned, Its timed based Txing. But there is no delay in live vs an app. With the app, there is a delay because the info need to go to a ground base. (Then next to Greece for MT, to be accumulated into their Internet system.) Then retransmitted over cellular. (Or however you access the Internet). This is what the topic is about. Not class A vs class B or B+. Now under 2 knots, that would be 3 minutes which is what you might be referring too.

There is actually some delay in the live systems. Varies for Class A (least), B+ (not bad), and B.

We have B+ now, and I can see the delay when we compare AIS returns to RADAR returns. The RADAR return is where a target boat really is. The AIS return can be where the target boat really is... right then... ... but then subsequent RADAR returns will show that boat a bit away from the AIS target on the screen... and that repeats, RADAR blob getting further away each pass, until the next time that boat transmits AIS again.

Previous boat, Class B system, I once watched a smaller boat (rare here to be transmitting AIS in the first place) cross our path at higher planing speed when we were trolling... and compared what I could see with the ol' Mark I** Eyeballs... and the boat was nearly out of sight to the south (Eyeballs) before his AIS signal showed him dead ahead. I expect he had Class B as well, given that was several years ago and I think before B+ appeared.

-Chris

 

[joyful]

A big 12 inch MFD, a new depth meter installed yourself is the basic building block this year. Next year the doppler radar and ais in. Year three an autopilot.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I was onboard the BC Ferry and following route along Marine traffic AIS app, had course and speed. In open water close enough. We arrived and docked and the AIS target docked about 5 min later.

I've done the same with Washington State ferries. WS DOT maintains a web site with vessel tracking that is reasonably accurate. Their tracking usually shows the ship arriving at a dock or departing from a dock within seconds. Contrast that to Marine Traffic which will be delayed by minutes. Just this morning out of curiosity I brought up both WS DOT's tracking and Marine Traffic. At the time I looked the plotted positions on the two differed by about 3/4 mile. That's for a ship traveling at 15 kts.

As I said in a previous post I'll use an AIS phone app for long range look ahead. I won't use it for close in collision avoidance. The potential delays are just too great.

 

[SeaWoof]

Do you know if you can display something other than what's on the MFD? The OP was hoping he could display Chart Plotter on one, Radar on his tablet (example).

Peter

If I could do radar overlay on the chartplotter on the MDF then mirrior it to the larger tablet, that would also work for me. At least provides an option for a larger display of the important stuff when needed.

 

[ranger58sb]

If I could do radar overlay on the chartplotter on the MDF then mirrior it to the larger tablet, that would also work for me. At least provides an option for a larger display of the important stuff when needed.

Pretty sure I could do that, if we had a Furuno RADAR. I can mirror the Furuno MFD to their tablet apps... so I assume it'd show RADAR too, if I had it displayed on the MFD.

I didn't replace the Garmin RADAR that came with the boat, though, so that's on a separate Garmin MFD... and I haven't looked to see if there's a way to mirror it to a tablet.

-Chris

 

[mvweebles]

If I could do radar overlay on the chartplotter on the MDF then mirrior it to the larger tablet, that would also work for me. At least provides an option for a larger display of the important stuff when needed.

When I purchased my Simrad system, it required an upgraded compass with heading information to support overlay. Make sure that option is still necessary, and that it's available on this basic bundle.

Peter

 

[Iggy]

Do you know if you can display something other than what's on the MFD? The OP was hoping he could display Chart Plotter on one, Radar on his tablet (example).

Peter

Thats what I was hoping for! To "display something other than what's on the MFD?" No, it is an exact copy of what's being displayed on the MFD.

 

[hytedin]

I’ve been down this road a few times. New MFDs are stupidly expensive. Do note that you’ll be paying for a chart subscription no matter what mfd.

There are so many ways to approach your need that I wouldn’t just land on a suite of devices currently provided by the big manufactures.

The discussion of AIS versus radar doesn’t have to be one that is either/or. I seriously recommend looking for used equipment that is still functional and usable in terms of current chart subscriptions and online commentary from users. If you are absolutely unaware of the systems and NMEA networking, then do the research and reading before you pull the trigger. In the meantime, be wise about your cruising until you are equipped as you would like to be—for example, weather window planning.

Though the halo radar is my personal goal someday, I was able to snag a Simrad 4g off marketplace for $400. It uses an Ethernet cable and can be piped directly to a router or computer and run on open cpn with no problem (pc, rpi, and Mac). I also picked up a Raymarine AIS 500 for $100 and reprogrammed it with available AIS pro software. My point: look around, research, don’t just go by what you find retail. Oh, and without a doubt look at the major navigational apps that are reasonably priced—like aqua maps and even navionics. It’ll get you on the water with some awareness.

I had a Go9 XSE on my two previous boats. Sold it with the last one. It’s fine, but long in the tooth for the current price. A year ago you could get it new on Amazon for $500. Now it’s up to $731.

Regarding opencpn, it should be noted that up to date charts can be had for free. It is solid program that isn’t a “toy” nor experiment and is dependable. You can also pipe any AIS data into it too.

TLDR: don’t jump into anything. Read, read, and read more. Start with absolute barebone need and “what will do” rather than a boat bill on new equipment that is past its prime.

 

[Iggy]

The only thing I don't like Open CPN that its an open source code. Which invites hackers or other programs that should not be there.

I do like your advice on used MFD and alike!

 

[Mako]

Wow, alot of replies in one day. IMO you're on a budget, but instead of buying used, by Chinese electronics. I purchased ONWA previously, directly from Hong Kong. Great basic unit. The screen was dim so it would have been better in a pilothouse than up on the flybridge.

 

[hytedin]

The only thing I don't like Open CPN that its an open source code. Which invites hackers or other programs that should not be there.

I do like your advice on used MFD and alike!

That’s a fair point; though I imagine it could be mitigated by controlling the updates and firewalls, it’s worth researching instances and protection.

The Go9 bricked itself underway twice during ownership requiring a full reset. Not a hack issue, but damned inconvenient. Thankfully I was running aquamaps on the iPad and navionics on my phone.

Like everything else, a back up might be enough to offset—navigation app.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The only thing I don't like Open CPN that its an open source code. Which invites hackers or other programs that should not be there.

I do like your advice on used MFD and alike!

It's pretty easy to protect yourself from bad actors with respect to OpenCPN's open source code. If installing on Windows or Mac run the check sum hash before installing. On Android use only the official copy from the play store. On Linux use the official releases.

And ask yourself what the risk is? Where is the value in hacking OpenCPN? What would hackers gain? How big a target is OpenCPN and it's users? Consider the extensive oversight and effort at maintaining OpenCPN. Spend some time on Cruiser's And Sailors OpenCPN forum.

 

[SeaWoof]

Wow, alot of replies in one day. IMO you're on a budget, but instead of buying used, by Chinese electronics. I purchased ONWA previously, directly from Hong Kong. Great basic unit. The screen was dim so it would have been better in a pilothouse than up on the flybridge.

I have looked at the ONWA and they seem to have a good range of product. Only issue I see is that they do not appear to be FCC / ISED certified. Not sure if this is an actual issue or not.

 

[Mako]

Can't tell you about the FCC certs or how that may be relevant. I started a thread previously to report on my findings of the depth sounder. Here's the link:
Just Ordered ONWA Plotter Sounder

 

[SeaWoof]

IMO, in this part of the world radar is a MUST-HAVE—far more valuable than AIS. Yes, AIS is super handy, but the farther north you go, the more you’ll find that only commercial vessels (and some recreational boats) transmit it. You'll also find that a lot of the fishing fleet also goes into “stealth mode” while fishing. Add in cross referencing charts with radar (charts are not perfect in BC) and seeing logs in the fog and it's jsut smart. Our radar goes on when we leave the dock. Even on a sunny day it's super handy for situational awareness (e.g. "what the h3!! is that guy up there doing?")

One inexpensive approach—while keeping an upgrade path open—is to run TZ iBoat (TZ iBoat | iPad and iPhone marine App) on a GPS-enabled iPad with Furuno’s DRS4W 1st Watch WiFi radar. You can also connect to depth sounders via a WiFi-enabled NMEA network. This is where something like a Vesper AIS can do double duty as an Class B AIS and a NMEA WiFi solution. The older Vespers are available used now (I have one sitting in a box) and are virtually bullet proof.

Alternatively, if you have Starlink, the latest version of iBoat can also display AIS (near real-time) from sources like MarineTraffic. It also has some great weather and routing tools.

From there, adding a small 12V PC running TimeZero Navigator lets you keep the iPad in the mix, but adds dedicated hardware, more monitoring options, and additional flexibility.

This is our setup: two PCs, two large curved gaming monitors, plus an iPad running iBoat (not in the photo), with everything integrated and connected. We have the Vesper Cortex (now Garmin) as the primary VHF and AIS.

Thanks Suzanne and Steven - I will have to take a look at the first watch systems. I had initially ruled them out as ipad only devices. I do wish they made an Andriod app... as that's the tablet I already own which has Navionics on it. I will take a look into the Vesper.

We do plan on having starlink on board later - for now we will be cruising in coastal areas (S.Gulf Islands).. but when we start venturing out more and are heading into Desolation we will likely get one.

 

[Nick F]

. . . and seeing logs in the fog and it's jsut smart. . . .

Wow - I have never managed to see a log with radar - unless there were some seagulls sitting on it.

 

[Skybolt]

AIS in an app, definitely not. AIS in general is just a tool and needs to be used right. I would never rely on AIS to indicate boats around me. In close quarters like a bay, 1 in 50 are transmitting and in open water most are, but fishing boats turn there's off. So it's only a tool, not something to rely on.

Radar, that is the best thing you could ask for, especially if it can overlay on a chart. But even that can be miss leading if not tuned right and used often to understand what your looking at compared to what you see with your eyes.

That said, here is a different option if you are tech literate? If so I would consider Signalk and OpenCPN. OpenCaptain supports Garmin HD and xHD radar units.

I am all Garmin and love it. But I understand the cost can be prohibitive. For the cost of one of their 12" MFD's you can outfit your entire wish list through OpenCPN and Signalk.

I have a couple of threads going over on ClubSeaRay.
Signalk

https://www.clubsearay.com/threads/raspberry-pi-on-the-boat.117159/

OpenCPN

https://www.clubsearay.com/threads/opencpn-on-the-boat.123023/

If your not tech literate, I would go the TimeZero route mentioned above. A very nice setup when expanded upon. Good luck in your decisions.