MPG question version 10,001

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Common rail diesels are easier because they report the instantaneous fuel burn rate, generally pretty accurately. When you average over a large tankful, there are many confounding sources of error. Almost nobody fills up, starts their boat and immediately goes to a calibrated, fixed STW until the tank is empty, then fills again.

Indeed. When I've noted out general consumption figures, it's been only from the instantaneous read-outs, not from any long-term computation and a controlled process. Accurate enough for my own purposes, but there can be a lot of white space between our gauges and reality.

-Chris
 
Indeed. When I've noted out general consumption figures, it's been only from the instantaneous read-outs, not from any long-term computation and a controlled process. Accurate enough for my own purposes, but there can be a lot of white space between our gauges and reality.

-Chris
I've noticed too that the internal computer data does not match manual fill-up gals vs miles on cars. OCD plugins have been standard on cars since the 1990a so they all have the ability but when I've compared to actual mileage, the onboard computer data is always a bit optimistic - at least 5%. Most cars these days have the mpg read-out on the dash cluster too. Notionally accurate - and always optimistic.

Am I the only one who sees disparities between electronic engine data and actual consumption measurements? Even after coast to coast trips with multiple fill-ups to even out the vagaries of a single fill-up.

Why would diesel engine days be more accurate? Or is that suspect too?

Peter
 
Am I the only one who sees disparities between electronic engine data and actual consumption measurements? Even after coast to coast trips with multiple fill-ups to even out the vagaries of a single fill-up.

My car measures and displays average mpg. When I fill up and do the simple math it always comes out about 1 mpg lower
 
One problem with cars is that the speedometer is required by law to be optimistic. More optimistic in the US than in Europe, too. I don't know what figures they use to calculate mpg.

On the two common rail boat diesels I've owned, the reading is quite accurate. "Trust but verify" - the Raymarine MFD accumulates usage from the instantaneous use reported by the ECU integrated over time. The Cummins ECU only produces instantaneous usage. Over about 10,000 miles on the last boat (QSB5.9) the accumulated fuel use varies only a few gallons from the pump receipts. The error is less than 2%. Only done about 500 miles with this one (QSB6.7) but it appears to be similarly accurate. Of course that does not mean that any one speed is exactly accurate, there could be cancelling errors, but since we tend to run 95% of the time at one speed, I think it is accurate at that chosen speed.
 
One problem with cars is that the speedometer is required by law to be optimistic. More optimistic in the US than in Europe, too. I don't know what figures they use to calculate mpg.
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No kidding, my current car bought used at 4 years old came with the best consumption still not matched or beaten. Makes me wonder if was run at idle to create that entry. Great sales tool though.
 
If the readout of the fuel gauge on the pump at the marine stations are accurate, my MPG over 4 years is approximately 2nMPG. That includes twin engines, diesel heater and GEN run time. Close enough for me.
 
I could actually cruise even slower engine rpm, but the hydraulic pump for the CPP needs a minimum of 500 rpm. With a 2:1 main transmission gear reduction, that equates to 1000 engine rpm.
That's a shame.

My experience with such systems is very limited. I have a distant recollection of being on a couple of boats that had a lever controlling the prop pitch. But that was with much smaller engines.

So what happens under 1000 RPM? Is the prop locked at a low pitch? Maybe you can point me to a description of the system.
 
No kidding, my current car bought used at 4 years old came with the best consumption still not matched or beaten. Makes me wonder if was run at idle to create that entry. Great sales tool though.
Not to get too far off topic, but this is always more about the driver than the vehicle.

I recently rented a big pickup with about 35k km on the clock and drove 1000 km through the mountains. Returned it with a new low consumption record.

Why? Because I drove it the same as I do my daily driver, which is a 2005 Prius. I'm one of those people :)

I could easily use three times as much fuel on my boat as I do, but choose not to.
 
By outlier, I meant did not fit the Skene's formula well. Almost all the other boats mentioned here do, as have my boats, except for the current one. The Skene's formula accounts for S/L ratio.

I do admit to being skeptical of claims though. It is pretty hard to get an accurate number without instrumentation. Common rail diesels are easier because they report the instantaneous fuel burn rate, generally pretty accurately. When you average over a large tankful, there are many confounding sources of error. Almost nobody fills up, starts their boat and immediately goes to a calibrated, fixed STW until the tank is empty, then fills again.
On your first post you posted the formula but for S/L ratio in the formula you show squaring instead of square root. Really makes a difference in numbers.

The major difference between sail boats and trawlers is the prismatic coefficients are much different. Most trawlers are about .62-.68 and most sailboats are .52-.58 and the difference in fuel burn is quite noticeable.
The higher the prismatic coefficient the more turbulence you will see behind your boat and the faster you can go but the more fuel you will burn at the same speed. Even so called displacement trawlers can push above theoretical hull speed with prismatic coefficients of 0.62
 
The higher the prismatic coefficient the more turbulence you will see behind your boat and the faster you can go but the more fuel you will burn at the same speed.

One point on this, from a layman: I think at some speed getting close to 1.3 the higher CP will get better FE than lower CP.

Advantage below 1 2 SL goes to low CP, but above that it shifts to advantage high CP. That's my theory... Thoughts?
 
One point on this, from a layman: I think at some speed getting close to 1.3 the higher CP will get better FE than lower CP.

Advantage below 1 2 SL goes to low CP, but above that it shifts to advantage high CP. That's my theory... Thoughts?
That is correct. The great mileages from low CP quoted in this thread were all low S/L ratios. If you want 1.3 or above you will give up fuel mileage at the lower S/L ratios by quite a margin. The reason for all the higher prismatic coefficients is that new boats cost a lot and new boat owners don't care much about real mileage because that is a minor cost. They want the ability to go a bit faster. By the time the boat gets well used and cheap the poor guy buying it thinks the mileage isn't cost effective and runs the boat less and sit on anchor.
You want cheap? Chain saws will effectively shorten lead keels to make them more friendly to motoring only and give fantastic mileage at around an A/L of 1.0. Don't ask me how I know.
 
Jeff F, let me go a bit further and throw myself under the buss. Weebles is a true displacement trawler with a CP of about .58 and gets fantastic mileage at under S/L ratios of about 1.1. My Hatteras 42 LRC is also listed as a full displacement trawler but has a CP of about .63. Now when Jack designed the 42 LRC, Hatteras being not exactly known for pokey ars mom and pop boats decided that the boat should at least be able to sustain 10 knots. Now Jack being a good boy decided to push the envelop and flatten the last 3 -4 feet of the stern and use it to carry more water if necessary under the rear stateroom bunks or run low and be able to reach 10 knots. He also specked detuned larger engines that could be run at WOT all day long if necessary but get longer life and better mileage near an S/L of 1.35-1.4.
With half water in the tanks my boat will reach about 9.8 knots at WOT burning 13 gph. That is tons of Hp just for the extra knot so effectively the boat can be driven to S/L of 1.6. SOOOO is my boat a semi displacement boat or a full displacement boat? At 8.8 knot the boat burns 7.8gph. The last knot costs 5.2 gph more. She throws an impressive wake the jet skis back off from at 9.8. With full water tanks the boat will not exceed 9.3 knots. With empty water tanks and light load it will do 10.2.
 
Averaged just a shade under 9-kts and burned 6-gal/hour for a 1.5 nmpg efficiency number (easy math: 4500 nms, 500 engine hours, 3000 gals diesel). I thought that was impressive but some of the numbers being bandied about in this thread make that shameful.
Uu
I think context is everything, and those are relevant data.

I bandy about low numbers, but if I averaged 9 knots I might not see much better than 2 nmpg.

My numbers reflect more on my usage than they do on the boat, except to say that it happily cruises at no-wake speeds.
 
PierreR, I'll join you under the bus.

I used to lust after small FD designs. Then I realized that almost everyone runs them too fast. If you're going to run a 40 ft boat faster than 7 knots you'll get better FE in a SD boat than a FD.
 
PierreR, I'll join you under the bus.

I used to lust after small FD designs. Then I realized that almost everyone runs them too fast. If you're going to run a 40 ft boat faster than 7 knots you'll get better FE in a SD boat than a FD.
Oh and I do get better mileage at 7 knots and under by quite a bit. I would be better off with an SD boat because I run 7.5 knots and would prefer 8.5 knots. In fact, I would prefer 10 knots. the problem come in because my boat is such a small percentage of my net worth. I am cruising full time starting next fall and will burn through $25,000+ dollars a year in dockage. I fit the real profile of a Hatteras owner. I really don't give a darn about a few more gallons and hour in the scheme of things and the oversized Detroit's and the stabilizers would be happier at 8.0-8.5 knots.
The more my snail boater snobbery wanes the happier I am. I did however look into a Cheoy Lee 53 motor sailor but that would be relapsing.
 
man a 42 ' trawler should be comfortable enough to be a cruising marina queen
 
On your first post you posted the formula but for S/L ratio in the formula you show squaring instead of square root. Really makes a difference in numbers.
Good catch. I can't go back and edit now but it should be:
Disp(lbs) / (10.665 / (speed(kts) / Waterline length(ft) ^0.5) ) ^3 = HP required
Diesels average 19 hp/gallon/hr
Also good points about prismatic coefficient. The stern shape of many SD boats is also very draggy at low S/L ratios. That shows up in the prismatic, but also has its own issues.
 
Sometimes I wish I could just shut off my mind. All of this got me to thinking. I have a 32" swim platform on my boat already. If I built and integral swim platform as a hull extension. I could gain 2.6 ft in water line length, drop the prismatic coefficient to around 0.59 and provide enough floatation to handle both the weight of the extension and provide some floatation for the fresh water in the stern and prevent some squat. The only thing I have to pain over is I have a stern thruster and what is the payback in fuel and what does it do to handling.
I need another project like I need a hole in the head but love the challenge. I will have to work the numbers and see if it is even practical.
 
This was done to my prior boat - not the one I owned but a couple of sisterships were done by the factory. They said the sea tests proved that there was little benefit in speed or economy, and felt that it compromised handling a little bit (because the rudder was left in place) and complicated the stern thruster. I aways thought that an overhanging swim platform was a waste of potential waterline.

On the other hand hull extensions on sailboats are somewhat common. In sailboats, they are looking for tenths of knots and can find them there.
 
The stern shape of many SD boats is also very draggy at low S/L ratios
That's a very good point. The amount of submerged transom you drag along on a flat transom hull has a significant impact on drag at lower speeds.

On a lot of SD or planing hulls (mine included), bow-down trim is more efficient below hull speed. At our usual cruise RPM we're a couple tenths of a knot faster when light on fuel and water (tanks relatively far aft). And adding a few hundred pounds of extra anchor chain up forward had, if anything, a slight positive impact on speed at the same RPM. Our typical slow cruise is in the range of 6.4 - 6.7 kts with a 33.5 foot waterline, so between 1.1 and 1.16 S/L. By 1.2 S/L the increase in wake and drag is very noticeable for us.

That said, on our boat, the opposite effect happens if you run the boat on plane. Weight further aft is faster and more efficient as the extra lift from more trim tab deployment to get to an optimal running angle means you have more total lift and the boat runs higher in the water (the gain from the extra lift out-weighs the increased trim drag). I've tested this in calm water by having someone walk from the aft deck to the forward head while on plane. Just the weight of an average person moving forward reliably causes us to slow down by 0.1 kts and nothing I do with trim will get it back. When they walk back aft, the speed comes back.
 
I've wondered if changing trim would be worth it. My last and current boat both have fuel and water tanks well aft of the CB, and filling them sinks the stern by a couple of inches. Hard to move the fuel, but I could add a water tank forward.
 
I've wondered if changing trim would be worth it. My last and current boat both have fuel and water tanks well aft of the CB, and filling them sinks the stern by a couple of inches. Hard to move the fuel, but I could add a water tank forward.
If it's practical to do it may help a bit. I don't have a good way to adjust trim easily on our boat, but for efficiency's sake I tend not to fill the fuel tanks all the way unless we need the range.
 
Also good points about prismatic coefficient. The stern shape of many SD boats is also very draggy at low S/L ratios. That shows up in the prismatic, but also has its own issues.
Yes, but what speeds are we talking? On a 36' WLL low S/L is under 6 knots.

If you're going 7+ knots that draggy stern becomes an asset.

This is a case of optimizing for the intended cruising speed.
 
Yes, but what speeds are we talking? On a 36' WLL low S/L is under 6 knots.

If you're going 7+ knots that draggy stern becomes an asset.

This is a case of optimizing for the intended cruising speed.
I think the crossover speed might be closer to hull speed. At 1.15 S/L we're dragging an awful lot of turbulent water behind us.
 
Even at hull speed dragging the transom is slow. You would be laughed out of the water if it were a sailboat. As Ted Turner famously said, "Even a turd is pointed at both ends." Only when you are moving fast enough that the water breaks cleanly off the transom corner do you cross the line where it might be beneficial. Many trawlers are pretty draggy shapes anyway, especially the SD ones, so maybe it doesn't add much as a percentage.
 
Fuel flow and fuel economy are blank. I get figures for both with my Cummins was 6.7 with Garmin mfd.
I took that pic when the engine wasn't running. When it is, the figures show real values.
 
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