Lithium upgrade installer recommendations, Pacific Northwest

[J.T kearney]

what makes the sparky think the start battery is taking the charge once full. It is the same as a bank of batteries with one charge source, the DC2DC is just a conduit.

Hi Steve, my thought is the alt will keep charging to the start battery at 14.2 volts or 30 to 40 amps while feeding the DC to DC charger until the Lifepo4 is full. There won't be a float charge for the start battery until that point. So am I boiling out my start battery on a 2hr run? We need a big brain ( Steve D. maybe ) to chime in. On my previous set up, the house bank (FLA) would be charged thru an ACR after the start was charged and this DC to DC charger is the same, with the added ability to regulate the amount of charge to the house bank. I still got 6 years out of my start battery!!
I'm running out of hair because I'm scratching my head to much on this one
cheers J.T.

 

[Bmarler]

My thought on agm batteries is that they have a finite number of amps in and amps out. Using them to charge through a dc2dc charger may use up some of these. Probably impossible to actually quantify how many, but I think there will be an effect.
Holding the voltage at a high state for an extended period would be a bit hard on them too, but I doubt you’d boil them from a couple hours run. Most agms die from undercharging than over.
I feel like upgrading the charging system with a large frame alternator and good quality regulator should accompany the lithium install so you can charge the lithium bank directly. Then top off the start bank with a dc2dc.

 

[SteveK]

Hi Steve, my thought is the alt will keep charging to the start battery at 14.2 volts or 30 to 40 amps while feeding the DC to DC charger until the Lifepo4 is full. There won't be a float charge for the start battery until that point. So am I boiling out my start battery on a 2hr run? We need a big brain ( Steve D. maybe ) to chime in. On my previous set up, the house bank (FLA) would be charged thru an ACR after the start was charged and this DC to DC charger is the same, with the added ability to regulate the amount of charge to the house bank. I still got 6 years out of my start battery!!
I'm running out of hair because I'm scratching my head to much on this one
cheers J.T.

I have been almost two years then boiling my start battery. Steve D has never opposed this and others have endorsed it as well. Have not seen the boiling the battery comment before this. Just checked and both the engine start and GEN start batteries are sitting at 12.5v, at rest without a charge since January about 2 months now. Don't think they have felt any boiling or overcharging.

 

[Frosty]

Hi Steve, my thought is the alt will keep charging to the start battery at 14.2 volts or 30 to 40 amps while feeding the DC to DC charger until the Lifepo4 is full. There won't be a float charge for the start battery until that point. So am I boiling out my start battery on a 2hr run? We need a big brain ( Steve D. maybe ) to chime in.

Do you now have regulated charging on your start bank? In other words, does it now get a bulk/absorption/float charge with specific voltages? (I have an outboard motor, so I don't have a way to do that and hence am not up to date with eg Wakespeed, etc.)

On my previous set up, the house bank (FLA) would be charged thru an ACR after the start was charged

The way I understand it, an ACR doesn't charge the start battery "first" until it is full, and and then charge the house bank. Rather, the ACR is basically a gate between the start and house banks. It can either be open or closed. The ACR looks for a specific voltage and when it sees that it opens (something like 13.6 volts). Basically, this signals the ACR that there is now charging being applied to the start bank (without charging a lead acid start bank would not be at 13.6 volts), so it's ok to open the gate.

Once the "gate" opens, both the start and house bank are being charged. The ACR can't charge the house bank without going through the start bank (at least in any setup I've had). So unless I'm mistaken, the start bank is also "seeing" charge voltage the whole time (though it is likely full and not taking any more). The ACR "gate" closes again when the start bank voltage goes down to something like 12.6 for X minutes. In other words, when there is no longer any charge being applied to the start battery, so the gate needs to close (so the start battery can't be depleted at anchor).

Unless you have some fancy charge settings between the alternator and the start bank? (Maybe you do; as mentioned above my charge source is not able to be regulated -- though of course it is now before it gets to the house bank after the Orion XS).

Caveat: I now have a boat with an outboard motor, so I am not able to use any fancy alternator regulators or etc. (eg Wakespeed).

I wonder if, once the start bank is full, it's acting more like a powerpost (or nearly so). I do know you have to have a battery on both ends of the Orion. In other words, it can't have an alternator hooked up to it directly on the engine end; but has to be hooked to both a source and destination battery.

Frosty

PS: Of course with an outboard motor, the start battery is always being charged, and always with motor output voltage, which is well upwards of 14 volts. In practice this doesn't seem to kill them noticeably prematurely, I don't think.

Be interested to hear what others have to say.

 

[tiltrider1]

Yes, I have seen their website. What I haven’t seen is their resume.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Marco, a charger with an AGM profile MAY not damage your batteries . . . but it WILL void you LiFePO4 batteries warranty.
Seems a little silly to go to the expense and effort of installing LiFePO4 batteries, while ignoring the battery manufacturer's installation instructions . . . .

Using an AGM profile won't damage my batteries because it is well within my manufacturer's charging parameters as per their installation instructions and warranty. I can't think of any LFP batteries for which this would not be true. It would be silly to go to the expense and effort of installing a LFP specific charger based on a misunderstanding of LFP charging parameters.

 

[J.T kearney]

Do you now have regulated charging on your start bank? In other words, does it now get a bulk/absorption/float charge with specific voltages? (I have an outboard motor, so I don't have a way to do that and hence am not up to date with eg Wakespeed, etc.)


The way I understand it, an ACR doesn't charge the start battery "first" until it is full, and and then charge the house bank. Rather, the ACR is basically a gate between the start and house banks. It can either be open or closed. The ACR looks for a specific voltage and when it sees that it opens (something like 13.6 volts). Basically, this signals the ACR that there is now charging being applied to the start bank (without charging a lead acid start bank would not be at 13.6 volts), so it's ok to open the gate.

Once the "gate" opens, both the start and house bank are being charged. The ACR can't charge the house bank without going through the start bank (at least in any setup I've had). So unless I'm mistaken, the start bank is also "seeing" charge voltage the whole time (though it is likely full and not taking any more). The ACR "gate" closes again when the start bank voltage goes down to something like 12.6 for X minutes. In other words, when there is no longer any charge being applied to the start battery, so the gate needs to close (so the start battery can't be depleted at anchor).

Unless you have some fancy charge settings between the alternator and the start bank? (Maybe you do; as mentioned above my charge source is not able to be regulated -- though of course it is now before it gets to the house bank after the Orion XS).

Caveat: I now have a boat with an outboard motor, so I am not able to use any fancy alternator regulators or etc. (eg Wakespeed).

I wonder if, once the start bank is full, it's acting more like a powerpost (or nearly so). I do know you have to have a battery on both ends of the Orion. In other words, it can't have an alternator hooked up to it directly on the engine end; but has to be hooked to both a source and destination battery.

Frosty

PS: Of course with an outboard motor, the start battery is always being charged, and always with motor output voltage, which is well upwards of 14 volts. In practice this doesn't seem to kill them noticeably prematurely, I don't think.

Be interested to hear what others have to say.

Frosty, yes I have a 100 amp alt with an external regulator before the start battery but not sure on the regulator parameter settings.
Cheers J.T.

 

[twistedtree]

I think this all depends on 1) how the alternator regulator behaves, and 2) how the DC/DC charger behaves.

Presumably the DC/DC charger will only operate when the AGM voltage is elevated indicating that it's being charged. You probably don't want the DC/DC running when the AGM is idle or you will get unnecessary cycling of the AGM.

The DC/DC amps don't "run through" the AGM, so don't worry about that. I think the only issue would be if the AGM gets maintained at some unnatural voltage for much longer that it should because somehow the DC/DC load is fooling the Alternator. But just monitoring the AGM voltage through a few run cycles will tell you if anything is amiss. It's probably just fine.

I personally prefer the arrangement when the alternator directly charges the LFP, and DC/DC does the top up of the AGM start battery. The catch is that you need to deal with the possibility of a BMS disconnect when the alternator is running at high output, and the resulting voltage surge. This is what drives people to connect to the AGM rather than directly to LFP. If your LFP has an Allow to Charge signal (ATC), then the problem is very simple to fix by simply using ATC to turn the alternator on/off. That will turn it off well before any BMS disconnect, and likely prevent teh disconnect from ever happening at all. Unfortunately not many BMSes offer ATC.

 

[Frosty]

The DC/DC amps don't "run through" the AGM, so don't worry about that.

That's what I was thinking; good to read it from someone else who's knowledgeable.

I personally prefer the arrangement when the alternator directly charges the LFP, and DC/DC does the top up of the AGM start battery. The catch is that you need to deal with the possibility of a BMS disconnect when the alternator is running at high output, and the resulting voltage surge. This is what drives people to connect to the AGM rather than directly to LFP.

I imagine not too many here have outboard motors for their main propulsion (I do though). With an outboard you only have a single positive wire coming from the outboard motor that both takes power from the battery to start/run the engine, and sends out power from the alternator to the start battery. So there is no option to charge the house bank directly and then charge the start bank "backwards" with an Orion. More's the pity.

Anyway, most here have an inboard in which case you do have choices.

Last note is that, due to the "single wire" situation, the start battery is always connected to the engine's alternator (which is not regulated in any external way); so -- for better or worse -- that doesn't change with or without an Orion. (Pre-LFP, the start and house were connected via an ACR in the same position as the Orion.) Start batteries in this type of setup don't seem to die prematurely, IME.

 

[twistedtree]

That's what I was thinking; good to read it from someone else who's knowledgeable.

I imagine not too many here have outboard motors for their main propulsion (I do though). With an outboard you only have a single positive wire coming from the outboard motor that both takes power from the battery to start/run the engine, and sends out power from the alternator to the start battery. So there is no option to charge the house bank directly and then charge the start bank "backwards" with an Orion. More's the pity.

Anyway, most here have an inboard in which case you do have choices.

Last note is that, due to the "single wire" situation, the start battery is always connected to the engine's alternator (which is not regulated in any external way); so -- for better or worse -- that doesn't change with or without an Orion. (Pre-LFP, the start and house were connected via an ACR in the same position as the Orion.) Start batteries in this type of setup don't seem to die prematurely, IME.

In the outboard case I can see how connecting the engine to the start battery, and then DC/DC to an LFP house bank is the only practical approach. And really, it's no different from an inboard engine with internally regulated alternator that the owner doesn't want to modify.

 

[J.T kearney]

Do you now have regulated charging on your start bank? In other words, does it now get a bulk/absorption/float charge with specific voltages? (I have an outboard motor, so I don't have a way to do that and hence am not up to date with eg Wakespeed, etc.)


The way I understand it, an ACR doesn't charge the start battery "first" until it is full, and and then charge the house bank. Rather, the ACR is basically a gate between the start and house banks. It can either be open or closed. The ACR looks for a specific voltage and when it sees that it opens (something like 13.6 volts). Basically, this signals the ACR that there is now charging being applied to the start bank (without charging a lead acid start bank would not be at 13.6 volts), so it's ok to open the gate.

Once the "gate" opens, both the start and house bank are being charged. The ACR can't charge the house bank without going through the start bank (at least in any setup I've had). So unless I'm mistaken, the start bank is also "seeing" charge voltage the whole time (though it is likely full and not taking any more). The ACR "gate" closes again when the start bank voltage goes down to something like 12.6 for X minutes. In other words, when there is no longer any charge being applied to the start battery, so the gate needs to close (so the start battery can't be depleted at anchor).

Unless you have some fancy charge settings between the alternator and the start bank? (Maybe you do; as mentioned above my charge source is not able to be regulated -- though of course it is now before it gets to the house bank after the Orion XS).

Caveat: I now have a boat with an outboard motor, so I am not able to use any fancy alternator regulators or etc. (eg Wakespeed).

I wonder if, once the start bank is full, it's acting more like a powerpost (or nearly so). I do know you have to have a battery on both ends of the Orion. In other words, it can't have an alternator hooked up to it directly on the engine end; but has to be hooked to both a source and destination battery.

Frosty

PS: Of course with an outboard motor, the start battery is always being charged, and always with motor output voltage, which is well upwards of 14 volts. In practice this doesn't seem to kill them noticeably prematurely, I don't think.

Be interested to hear what others have to say.

Hi Frosty
My original set up was alt. with external reg. to start battery. From start battery to ACR and then to house. So when we hit approx. 13.6 volts at start battery which opens the ACR to allow voltage to my house bank. Pretty simplistic but effective since it was 20 year old tech.
Cheers J.T.

 

[J.T kearney]

I think this all depends on 1) how the alternator regulator behaves, and 2) how the DC/DC charger behaves.

Presumably the DC/DC charger will only operate when the AGM voltage is elevated indicating that it's being charged. You probably don't want the DC/DC running when the AGM is idle or you will get unnecessary cycling of the AGM.

The DC/DC amps don't "run through" the AGM, so don't worry about that. I think the only issue would be if the AGM gets maintained at some unnatural voltage for much longer that it should because somehow the DC/DC load is fooling the Alternator. But just monitoring the AGM voltage through a few run cycles will tell you if anything is amiss. It's probably just fine.

I personally prefer the arrangement when the alternator directly charges the LFP, and DC/DC does the top up of the AGM start battery. The catch is that you need to deal with the possibility of a BMS disconnect when the alternator is running at high output, and the resulting voltage surge. This is what drives people to connect to the AGM rather than directly to LFP. If your LFP has an Allow to Charge signal (ATC), then the problem is very simple to fix by simply using ATC to turn the alternator on/off. That will turn it off well before any BMS disconnect, and likely prevent teh disconnect from ever happening at all. Unfortunately not many BMSes offer ATC.

Hi Twistedtree,
Thats what I was visualizing was a constant higher charge to the start battery to feed the DC to DC charger. I'll keep a closer eye on the start battery meter while underway.
Cheers J.T.

 

[Frosty]

Hi Twistedtree,
Thats what I was visualizing was a constant higher charge to the start battery to feed the DC to DC charger. I'll keep a closer eye on the start battery meter while underway.
Cheers J.T.

I wonder if that is how it would work. Reason I say that is that the Orion will buck or boost as it needs to in order to make the house voltage meet what you have programmed as the best settings for your house bank.

To my mind if it's boosting (say) that would seem to mean it's not demanding higher voltage from your alternator (if it could do that, it would not need to boost, right?).

In my particular case it will probably be bucking most of the time. Because my alternator puts out like 14.5 volts all the time.

But that also says that my start battery has been withstanding a 14.5 volt alternator output for years (and same with pretty much any outboard motor) and I don't hear of people having to replace start batteries at a rate of knots.

So I wonder two things:

1) How much (if any) life is shaved off a start battery whose charge voltage is coming from an unregulated source (i.e. higher voltage vs. charging stages and termination).

2) If you add an Orion to the above setup, is it really "demanding" more voltage come through? If it could do that why would it need to boost (or buck) voltage at all? Seems like if it could do that it wouldn't need to be a converter...?


In the case of #1, I'm not advocating people purposely make a setup like that if they have a regulated alternator. Of course that's likely even better. But I still like to know how things work vs. possible misconceptions.

 

[Sababa]

S3 is pretty good, they did a nice job on a solar panel install for me. They do fixate on Victron and there are better batteries out now. They are expensive though. Their estimates were kind of crazy, I kept asking questions and getting them down.

S3 Maritime

S3 Maritime is your resource for unparalleled Yacht Systems, Service, and Support in the Northwest and worldwide. Anything, Anytime, Anywhere.

www.s3maritime.com

I know there are some good independents, ask at Fisheries.

S3 charges through the nose, pads their hours, and does sloppy work. Go elsewhere.

 

[w8n4sun]

S3 charges through the nose, pads their hours, and does sloppy work. Go elsewhere.

That has not been my experience, give Mike Tobin a call and see if they can help you. I am very happy with the design, install and pricing of the LFP upgrade S3 did for us.

 

[Sababa]

That has not been my experience, give Mike Tobin a call and see if they can help you. I am very happy with the design, install and pricing of the LFP upgrade S3 did for us.

Mike is a liar. Glad you had a better experience than I did.

 

[w8n4sun]

Shifty, good luck with your project. Going to a well-designed LFP system is a game changer and I look forward to reading about your feedback once you start using the system for your cruising needs. It's unfortunate experiences are the same for everyone, but we are really happy with the results Mike and his team at S3 provided us. Feel free to PM me if you want any specifics on the system we have, we also converted from 12V to 24V house and amazed at the performance it puts out.

 

[sunchaser]

Dan at Emerald Harbor is worth a call for sure. They are not cheap either. He has done some work for me (small stuff so far). He’s been around for a while and seems to really know marine electrical very well. Good at explaining things and will take the time to do so.

I’d vote Dan as well. Not only does he know Li but the importance of a well installed total electrical system. There is more to it than dropping in a battery or 6 and then assuming all is well.

 

[Sababa]

If you can get up to Port Townsend Shipwrights their rates are a third less than anyone in Seattle and their work is top notch. They found and fixed the stuff that S3 messed up when they installed my Victron Quattro inverter at a fraction of the cost of what S3 charged me to do it wrong.

 

[MVPacific]

I’m planning a lithium upgrade and am looking for recommendations for installers in the Seattle region. I have a lot of experience with various outfits and have had mixed results with every one of them. But, times change and staff turns over, so I would like to hear from anyone who has actually had extensive electrical work done, recently. Over the years, my default for most big jobs has been CSR. They’re expensive, but have been the most professional and organized. I’m also considering Emerald Harbor Marine. Many of the smaller independent electricians don’t even return calls.

Revision Marine in Port Townsend recently completed a major upgrade to our battery storage and charging systems. We replaced our old house bank of 12, 2v flooded cells with a new 48v bank of LiFePO4 batteries made by MG Energy Systems. We now have 48KwH of house bank capacity. The entire system is managed by an MG BMS, which also controls two new Victron 48/10000 Quattros. Instead of employing a strategy of setting up chargers and loads to avoid tripping the BMS, MG’s BMS actively manages those components itself. MG makes a regulator that easily integrates and manages the Mahle 48v alternator, which sustains 7,000 watts while underway, and our project included 1060 watts of solar, too. An MG 12v battery, charged by 3 Victron DC-DC chargers, powers the 12v equipment and lights. We wanted at least 48 hours at anchor without running our NL16KW generator. Practically, we can now run our genset 3 to 4 hours every other day at a 75% load, instead of 8 to 10 hours every day at 20% load. We expect a dramatic reduction in fuel burn, oil changes, and of course, noise. And, we lost about 500 pounds from the SB side of our engine room I highly recommend ReVision Marine. Matt Mortensen and his team design and install leading edge electrical systems on vessels of all types, including propulsion.

 

[twistedtree]

Revision Marine in Port Townsend recently completed a major upgrade to our battery storage and charging systems. We replaced our old house bank of 12, 2v flooded cells with a new 48v bank of LiFePO4 batteries made by MG Energy Systems. We now have 48KwH of house bank capacity. The entire system is managed by an MG BMS, which also controls two new Victron 48/10000 Quattros. Instead of employing a strategy of setting up chargers and loads to avoid tripping the BMS, MG’s BMS actively manages those components itself. MG makes a regulator that easily integrates and manages the Mahle 48v alternator, which sustains 7,000 watts while underway, and our project included 1060 watts of solar, too. An MG 12v battery, charged by 3 Victron DC-DC chargers, powers the 12v equipment and lights. We wanted at least 48 hours at anchor without running our NL16KW generator. Practically, we can now run our genset 3 to 4 hours every other day at a 75% load, instead of 8 to 10 hours every day at 20% load. We expect a dramatic reduction in fuel burn, oil changes, and of course, noise. And, we lost about 500 pounds from the SB side of our engine room I highly recommend ReVision Marine. Matt Mortensen and his team design and install leading edge electrical systems on vessels of all types, including propulsion.

Great to hear of another MG installation. I was one of their first US installations.

 

[dannc]

Revision Marine in Port Townsend recently completed a major upgrade to our battery storage and charging systems. We replaced our old house bank of 12, 2v flooded cells with a new 48v bank of LiFePO4 batteries made by MG Energy Systems. We now have 48KwH of house bank capacity....

Did you use the MG RS230 48v batteries?

 

[MVPacific]

Did you use the MG RS230 48v batteries?

No. They used MG’s 24v batteries; 3 sets of 2 in series.