Lifepo4 update

[Seevee]

With all the post on going to the Lifepo4s, Im thinking of the same thing.
Looks like the cost of Lifepo4s vs. the AGM is getting pretty close and the cost per amp hour is really close.



Is there ANY reason NOT do do the Lifepo4s?


I'm looking at a single Lithonics Lifepo4 to replace my crappy West Marine 245ah "dual purpose AGMs that won't hold a charge. Love the Lifeline AGMs, but very close in cost now.


Thoughts?

 

[Gdavid]

With all the post on going to the Lifepo4s, Im thinking of the same thing.
Looks like the cost of Lifepo4s vs. the AGM is getting pretty close and the cost per amp hour is really close.



Is there ANY reason NOT do do the Lifepo4s?


I'm looking at a single Lithonics Lifepo4 to replace my crappy West Marine 245ah "dual purpose AGMs that won't hold a charge. Love the Lifeline AGMs, but very close in cost now.


Thoughts?

The short answer: If you are not going to thoroughly evaluate your existing system and just swap batteries, you are likely to have problems, that is the the reason Not to swap.

The most likely failure I have heard of, anecdotally, is internally regulated alternators being ruined because they cannot withstand the sustained amperage rates that Lifepo4s can absorb at. This can be solved with an external regulator properly configured to prevent the alternator from damaging itself, operating at the max output. There are similar factors to consider throughout your system so take your time, do the research and go for it.

 

[DegoRed]

You could just wait a while longer and go with Sodium that's supposed to be the ultimate.

 

[DDW]

Last year I did Lifelines. This year I would do LFP. Just make sure you have temp regulation on the alternator, and some strategy to dump alternator load if the battery disconnects. Those seem to be the two main issues with LFP replacement batteries.

 

[tiz]

My reason to hold back from a lifepo4 house bank are:

1) I currently have fla 8d batteries still working

2) I worry about the temperature issues - charging / storing at below 0 degf and high temp in engine room during summer

3) inability to be starting batteries for Cummins 6bta


Still hoping the technology evolves. I think other aspects can be dealt with but not the temperature constraints.

—Kevin

 

[diver dave]

Folks coming down with a new malady “lead insecurity”.

It is interesting though, that so many industries are forced to eliminate all traces of lead, and there is this giant exemption called batteries.

 

[KnotYet]

Folks coming down with a new malady “lead insecurity”.

It is interesting though, that so many industries are forced to eliminate all traces of lead, and there is this giant exemption called batteries.

Fortunately the lead in batteries stays inside them so the only lead exposure is when
they are either manufactured or recycled. Those industries are likely highly regulated.

 

[Greatlaker221]

Insurance is the problem with LifePo4 now. They lump all chemistries together and some have restrictions.

 

[twistedtree]

Insurance is the problem with LifePo4 now. They lump all chemistries together and some have restrictions.

What restrictions? I have yet to hear of an insurance company disallowing LFP. Have you encountered specific examples?

 

[Simi 60]

Insurance is the problem with LifePo4 now. They lump all chemistries together and some have restrictions.

So some random interweb posters say.
Yet to see any actual evidence of it happening

 

[Comodave]

I put them in our last boat and had no insurance issues. No issues with the survey when we sold the boat either. But they are not just a drop in replacement for LA batteries either, you need to plan the whole electrical system around them.

 

[DDW]

I'm guessing there will be more problems in the future, when the ABYC spec is published. Right now, a surveyor has no documentation to point to for compliance or non-compliance. That will change. I've had them point out really stupid things, just because there was an ABYC rule to call out. Can't imagine LFP will be an exception.

 

[Bacchus]

Larry
"Is there ANY reason NOT do do the Lifepo4s?"

You don't mention any specifics as to what will be powered from your set up.
Do you have the typical MS combined and switched house & start configuration?

That is one point that RC / CMS makes about drop in LFP.
Is this a pure low amp house bank or do you have inverter, windlass, thruster, etc that may be connected? Max Amp draw needs to be considered from what I've read.

 

[catalinajack]

What restrictions? I have yet to hear of an insurance company disallowing LFP. Have you encountered specific examples?

Here's a lift from another forum:

Here's the latest from Jackline policy representative on Lithium.

"Markel's underwriters are not currently receptive to insuring boats with Lithium batteries.* If we learn of lithium installations on boats they already insure, we must bring that to their attention for review which could result in a cancellation.* They are very sensitive to the exposures they have of both physical damage losses and the even larger potential for resulting liabilities should a failure occur to a lithium set up.* They recently started to consider coverage for some lower valued vessels using LifePO4 batteries with a BMS by a US manufacturer, if professionally installed in the states.* However,*Kristy’s hull value is higher than that current threshold.* Unfortunately, Markel is not going to consider any changes to their position until 2022 at the earliest.* It is my hope that they will become more flexible on the matter since many cruisers are looking to make the upgrade.

 

[Seevee]

Larry
"Is there ANY reason NOT do do the Lifepo4s?"

You don't mention any specifics as to what will be powered from your set up.
Do you have the typical MS combined and switched house & start configuration?

That is one point that RC / CMS makes about drop in LFP.
Is this a pure low amp house bank or do you have inverter, windlass, thruster, etc that may be connected? Max Amp draw needs to be considered from what I've read.

Don,
I have a very typical Mainship, but a bit upgraded electrical. Have two 250A alternators with external regulators, Mastervolt 3000w/160a inverter/charger, separate charger for start batteries. Also, thrusters, bow and stern, but stern on it's own battery. Need about 250ah for overnite on the hook.

 

[Bacchus]

Don,
I have a very typical Mainship, but a bit upgraded electrical. Have two 250A alternators with external regulators, Mastervolt 3000w/160a inverter/charger, separate charger for start batteries. Also, thrusters, bow and stern, but stern on it's own battery. Need about 250ah for overnite on the hook.

Have you seen / read the CMS How To Marine drop in LiFePO4 article.
As I recall he recommends against hi A draws on LFP. If I recall correctly >100-150A is what he considers as an upper limit.
The other recommendation is alt temp sensing but guessing your ext reg would include that?
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

From my reading the major take away is the need to consider total system design vs just replacing battery type.

 

[DCDC]

I’m looking at a single Lithonics Lifepo4 to replace my crappy West Marine 245ah "dual purpose AGMs that won't hold a charge.

Thoughts?

-We are on our third cruising season with Lithionic’s as a house bank and happy to have them. Some details that may help:

-The old house bank was 5x 220ah Lifelines split into two banks with typical battery selector switch to have 2, 3 or 5 on line. They were aged and charge rates dropping. We are at anchor for weeks to months so decided to upgrade.

-I replaced one of the Lifelines with 3x 280ah Lithionic’s and rewired to have the remaining Lifelines as one bank and the Lithionic’s as the other. Have separate starting batteries.

-Used existing Magnum inverter/charger with programmable controller. Lithionic’s supplied charging parameters to fit their batteries. Also have large frame 160 amp alternator with dual belts and older adjustable Blue Seas regulator. Also have a 12kw generator. I added a Sterling surge protector to the alternator.

-We typically use the Lithionic’s at anchor and the Lifeline’s when underway or on shore power.

-They are installed forward of the engine and kept at acceptable temperatures as we have engine room intake and discharge blowers.

-The Lithionic’s are high end, industrial quality, robust and UL approved. External BMS, Bluetooth interface and factory cables/connectors to configure multiple batteries. Other than up front cost, I have had zero problems with them. BMS has never shut down the batteries.

-I worked directly with Lithionic’s on design, picked them up at their facility in Clearwater, FL and installed them myself. Easy to work with.

-One Lifeline weighs as much as all three Lithionic’s, so 3x the storage density, and fit in the same footprint as the single Lifeline in a battery box. No box for the Lithionic’s, held in place by straps. Charging rates and capacity as advertised.

-We are anticipating that we will be caught up in the Geico insurance upheaval so had an insurance/valuation survey performed. No issues with the installation and he was considering LiFePO4 for his boat.

 

[Seevee]

DCDC,


Good info, thx!


Did you set up separate chargers for the Lifelines and the Lithonics?

 

[twistedtree]

Here's a lift from another forum:

Here's the latest from Jackline policy representative on Lithium.

"Markel's underwriters are not currently receptive to insuring boats with Lithium batteries.* If we learn of lithium installations on boats they already insure, we must bring that to their attention for review which could result in a cancellation.* They are very sensitive to the exposures they have of both physical damage losses and the even larger potential for resulting liabilities should a failure occur to a lithium set up.* They recently started to consider coverage for some lower valued vessels using LifePO4 batteries with a BMS by a US manufacturer, if professionally installed in the states.* However,*Kristy’s hull value is higher than that current threshold.* Unfortunately, Markel is not going to consider any changes to their position until 2022 at the earliest.* It is my hope that they will become more flexible on the matter since many cruisers are looking to make the upgrade.

Thank you, it's great to see a concrete example. We are now well into 2022, and I wonder if Markel has revised their position. Has anyone recently insured with them with LFP on their boat?

 

[DavidM]

DCDC:

How do you limit current from your 160A alternator? With more than 800 Ah of LFP batteries, they could pull a huge current if the batteries are well discharged and burn up the alternator if not otherwise controlled. A Balmar regulator with an alternator temp probe is one solution.

David

 

[CaptainK]

What restrictions? I have yet to hear of an insurance company disallowing LFP. Have you encountered specific examples?

There was a post in a Facebook Group of a boat getting lithium batteries, and their insurance dropped them... we have 14 group 8D AGMs, and thought about replacing those with lithium, but, decided against it. Things are working really well right now, no need to mess with something that works well.

 

[Bacchus]

we have 14 group 8D AGMs,....

Holy Back Ache Batman!

14 8Ds... that's like a metric ton of lead ballast.
I'm dreading the day I will need to remove 3 of those beasts

 

[Simi 60]

Holy Back Ache Batman!

14 8Ds... that's like a metric ton of lead ballast.
I'm dreading the day I will need to remove 3 of those beasts

Leave them in.
We have 2 dead banks (6 + 8) down there for ballast

 

[Simi 60]

Have you seen / read the CMS How To Marine drop in LiFePO4 article.
As I recall he recommends against hi A draws on LFP. If I recall correctly >100-150A is what he considers as an upper limit.
.

Depends on the battery........
Many have a 1c rating
Our eve 280 have a 1c rating meaning they can be discharged 280ah in an hour and charged at that same rate
They can also take a 30 second 2c pulse according to specs, so 560a

Depends on the amount of battery........
Because we have three X 280ah batteries in parallel your 150amp load is now 50a across each

 

[socalrider]

I put in FLA 2 years ago. Today I'd do LFP. I'd need to upgrade one of my two alternators but it'd be completely worth it.

I wouldn't (won't) swap out a functioning pack to do it though, in part because LFP gets better and cheaper every year.

 

[DDW]

It should be pointed out that an alternator upgrade to external regulation with temp compensation should be made regardless of LFP or AGM. You are likely killing your AGMs early if you don't. Internal regulators on automotive alternators are not designed for this.

 

[Seevee]

It should be pointed out that an alternator upgrade to external regulation with temp compensation should be made regardless of LFP or AGM. You are likely killing your AGMs early if you don't. Internal regulators on automotive alternators are not designed for this.

I have alternators with external regulation for AGMs, and can set it up for the Lifepo4s, and the inverter/charger also has settings for Lifepo4, so not an issue.


My biggest concern is reliability. But still need to pay attention to install issues.

 

[DCDC]

DCDC,


Good info, thx!


Did you set up separate chargers for the Lifelines and the Lithonics?

The Magnum inverter/charger interface has selectable charge parameters for various batteries. I use one of the AGM options for the Lifeline’s. For the Lithionic’s I use a CC/CV (constant charge/constant voltage) routine with parameters provided by Lithionic’s. Charge method is easy to select the ME-ARC controller.

 

[DCDC]

DCDC:

How do you limit current from your 160A alternator? With more than 800 Ah of LFP batteries, they could pull a huge current if the batteries are well discharged and burn up the alternator if not otherwise controlled. A Balmar regulator with an alternator temp probe is one solution.

David

I typically have the AGM’s with Blue Seas regulator in line when cruising. If the Lithionic’s need charging I monitor amps and voltage with Bluetooth and pilothouse meters. Overloading the alternator is usually not an issue as output at normal cruise rpm’s is 50-100 amps.

 

[sunchaser]

What restrictions? I have yet to hear of an insurance company disallowing LFP. Have you encountered specific examples?

TT is spot on per my insurer.