licensing - USCG vs state certifications

[skyhawk]

for context, I'm a lifelong small boat guy dreaming of getting something bigger for full timing or maybe part time cruising

I'm more interested in cruising the Bahamas, US east coast, and over to Europe... but I wouldn't mind the idea of the great loop either...full or partial. So I was doing some poking around on the AGLCA site, and found this page.
I was honestly surprised that some states require education for me. I'm not arguing against it and I don't see it as a problem or a bad idea, I just figured I'd be aged out of any such requirements. I'm in Florida and I know we have a cert requirement here too, but I'm long past the grandfathered-in age so I never really gave it any thought!

Seems like there are a ton of choices, and each state seems to have different needs, so I'm wondering on the state level is there is a "best one" universal cert that I can do now and that does it all (for the state level needs anyway), aside from USCG Captain's license since that one will take some time? & Do any of those NASBLA options do anything for insurance or for international cruising?
I'm wondering from the perspective of regulatory and also just for hull insurance considerations?
US coastal & near shore
great lakes and inland
international cruising

A while back I started thinking that maybe I should start working on my USCG OUPV certification, not that I have any aspirations of commercial operations, but thinking that it'll maybe help with insurance as well as when operating internationally or even in other states of the US. I don't have the 90-day recency experience requirement but I no doubt have much more than the 36-day total requirement. I've been operating boats since I was a kid, and on my own since I was 16. (dad was a USCG BMCM) Problem is that I can't document most of that time in terms of numbers of days in any particular month or year. I figure the recency time will come quick once I get a boat, and will most likely do some orientation work with a training captain at that point anyway, so I'm not concerned about that
And for for the total requirement - With random photos I can document some of them and I can start logging moving forward...so no matter.

Maybe I'll just start studying and do a USCG OUPV class since that seems to be the most universal for my need. I wonder though if I do the test, does a clock start ticking to wrap it up and if I don't get the time logged soon enough then I'll have to test again?

 

[O C Diver]

I would guess that if you had the Florida cert, most other states would recognize it from a transient boater perspective.

Instead of a exam prep class and going for the USCG OUPV, maybe contact the Power Squadron or similar agency that offers courses, and see if they have something more meaningful. Might as well learn something while getting a cert.

Ted

 

[Jeff F]

I would guess that if you had the Florida cert, most other states would recognize it from a transient boater perspective.

Agreed. There may be differences between state requirements, but I don't think any of them are particularly onerous.

I live in Canada and my province has had boating operator licencing requirements for a long time. I carry mine, but in years of traveling all over the eastern US and Canada have never been asked to produce it, and assume that it would be accepted if I did present it as a transient.

 

[skyhawk]

I asked my teenage daughter if she remembers anything about reciprocity when she did her certification. She didn't, but did a little research....and apparently as long as it's a NASBLA course then any US state will honor it.
So IF that's true, then now I'm trying to figure out why there are separate course for each state. Why not just one national NASBLA course?
I'm old, so I'm not required to do it...but if I want to take my boat to a few select other states, then I do need to take it.
And to know where, I have to look up each state individually.
what a mess!

All the more reason I suppose, to start logging your hours early and get a USCG license early.

but then that still leaves the question about what one needs when going internationally as a recreational cruiser....

 

[DDW]

As far as acquiring actual useful boating knowledge, the state (and provincial) certs are nearly useless. A bunch of questions about water ski rope lengths and how intoxicated you can be as a 16 year old on a jet ski. Perhaps a good exercise for some but not much use on a live aboard length trawler actually going someplace. If you want knowledge take some real courses somewhere.

 

[skyhawk]

the state (and provincial) certs are nearly useless

I haven't taken any but that's pretty much what I've figured based on talking with my daughter that did work through one.
Seems silly but it seems that if someone want to cruise the great loop for example...or even just cruise up an down the coast, then it's necessary for a few states.

I've gone a little deeper down the OPUV license rat hole
So if I understand it correctly the course needs to be completed within one year of application, so for me at this point there's not much sense in me looking for a course to take unless I wanted to do it for general knowledge

Also, I was surprised that it seems the license might be limited to only what your logged experience was....inshore, coastal, OR great lakes
which sorta makes sense but I thought the point of the license was more broad brush than that
Anyway, based on on the checklists that I've found online, it seems that if you want a license to cover all possibilities, then you'd need to log 1,080 days
360 days in the great lakes + 360 days near shore coastal + 360 days inland
and there's no apparent use in this license it seems, for anything offshore
Probably no real use in it anyway, for someone only doing recreational cruising, other than general knowledge.

 

[slowgoesit]

We took the online course, and have our Washington State Safe Boater's Cards. As mentioned above, we had to learn and were tested at great length on trailering small boats, and PWC's, but next to nothing about larger boats, and nothing about Rules of the Road, passing sound signals, etc. It was just a requirement, so we got it.
Move on to our trip down the West Coast of US, and Mexico. Leaving Mexico from the Port of Chiapas, we were required to show some type of "Mariner's License" in order to apply and receive our Zarpe, or Exit Clearance. We couldn't leave Chiapas without it! I haven't run into anyone anywhere else who was faced with that requirement leaving Mexico, but it was a solid requirement in Chiapas. Anyway, the guy at the Port said most people when faced with that problem, go on line to California, take the CA boater's course and test, have it mailed to Mexico, and it sufficed. Then I remembered the WA State card. "But of Course! That will do nicely!" he said.

Anyway, the Florida one is also a joke. Also beware that in Florida, and possibly in other States, the State card doesn't allow you to legally boat in some areas. For instance, if you boat/anchor in any parts of the Everglades National Park, you are required to complete and possess on your boat ANOTHER boater education card in addition to the FL State card, or you can be cited. Yes, evening anchoring for the night in Shark River on your way down the coast, you are required to possess the card.

Another oddity is when they passed the law in New York while we were there, they first required it for everyone, but after the boat rental people screamed it would kill their business, they relented, and exempted people renting boats by the hour, or day . . . . Apparently if they are paying to support a local business, that is sufficient proof that they are "safe", as opposed to those who are life time boaters, and own their own boat, who are apparently "unsafe" until they take the New York State course . . . .

On to the USCG certs. Several insurance companies, and two brokers told me that having it made no difference to policy rates. I've still toyed with getting it anyway. One friend who is a broker told me that with our experience, and the size of our boat (45nrt), with two extra classes, (and tests) we could go for our 100 ton license instead of the OPUV. . . . but except for the knowledge gained, it wouldn't do anything else for us. We also have all the "offshore" time we need from three years of boating in Hawaii, as almost everything you do there qualifies as "offshore". We have no intention of doing anything commercial that would require a license, so we've not pursued it.

Best of luck in whatever you decide!

 

[nussbda]

BoatUS offers many of the state courses on line.

 

[skyhawk]

For instance, if you boat/anchor in any parts of the Everglades National Park, you are required to complete and possess on your boat ANOTHER boater education card in addition to the FL State card, or you can be cited.

this is the first I've heard of that! I have no plans to go there so not a concern for me now. Just guessing that's more of an ecological education than a boating thing. Probably not so different from some sort of orientation training a backpacker might be required to do for say the grand canyon as an example.


I've been on and around small boats my whole life, taught by a Coast Guard Boatswain's Mate. As a young kid I helmed the USCGC Wyaconda for several miles when dad was chief of the boat, and later as a teen I helmed the Fort Fisher NC Ferry for a short bit. I mention neither of those as any sort of qualification, just as a point of trivia to demonstrate exposure. All of my real boating experience has been small boats, operating independently since I was 15-16 years old, and I know nothing really about cruising sized boats & I know that I'll need some training in transition.

On to the USCG certs. Several insurance companies, and two brokers told me that having it made no difference to policy rates.

interesting. I'm surprised about that.
I guess I was figuring that a licensed commercial operator would have had to demonstrate both knowledge and proficiency in all aspects of boating, and that holding such a card would mean a little something in terms of safety, rules of the road, etc... Even if the license was based fully on small boat experience on inland rivers, some of that translates to larger boats and even offshore, and so I was thinking that the license would demonstrate that I know rules of the road and such putting me in a better standing for insurance than some rich guy that has never paddled a canoe in his life but decided to go out and buy himself a Nordhavn.

 

[Bacchus]

I am a long time USPS / ABC member, instructor and vessel safety examiner. While a basic boating safety course provides little advanced skills that are beneficial for serious long term Cruisers (loopers) it is a basic / starting foundation. As long as a state course is NASBLA certified it will satisfy state reqmts for a certificate in the states that require it (more and more common in many states now). I have rented boats in a few states and never had an issue using my out of state certification.

While many complain they are required to take a course where they feel they they won't learn anything new, if they are honest with themselves, most long term boaters will admit they learned something new. And even if it reinforces your knowledge it's not a complete waste of time to refresh. The NY course requires 8 hrs of instruction time as part of the reqmts. I can't think of an advanced course or topic that would be of interest to serious Cruisers that could be covered in 8 hrs.
I have had people that took the USCG 6 pack course / licensing that complained they didn't learn a lot that they felt was useful and signed up for USPS / ABC advanced courses to really learn the material.

A long winded way to say... just take a state NASBLA certified course and you will be fine. Also, at least when I started boating BoatUS insurance gave credit &;small discount for completing a USPS / USCG basic course and an additional small discount for continuing membership in either organization. No idea what current practice is?

 

[Bacchus]

interesting. I'm surprised about that.
I guess I was figuring that a licensed commercial operator would have had to demonstrate both knowledge and proficiency in all aspects of boating, and that holding such a card would mean a little something in terms of safety, rules of the road, etc... Even if the license was based fully on small boat experience on inland rivers, some of that translates to larger boats and even offshore, and so I was thinking that the license would demonstrate that I know rules of the road and such putting me in a better standing for insurance than some rich guy that has never paddled a canoe in his life but decided to go out and buy himself a Nordhavn.

I don't think any USCG certification includes a proficiency evaluation other than documenting time aboard. Maybe in the case of Master Certification or other higher rating but AFAIK applicants only need document time and that seems rather loosely controlled... a 1 hr spin counts as a full day aboard if I understand what others have commented. Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses.

 

[CharlieO.]

I don't think any USCG certification includes a proficiency evaluation other than documenting time aboard. Maybe in the case of Master Certification or other higher rating but AFAIK applicants only need document time and that seems rather loosely controlled... a 1 hr spin counts as a full day aboard if I understand what others have commented. Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses.

I believe 4 hours off the dock qualifies for a day towards your sea time.
I took the New York NASBLA course online.

 

[skyhawk]

I don't think any USCG certification includes a proficiency evaluation other than documenting time aboard. Maybe in the case of Master Certification or other higher rating but AFAIK applicants only need document time and that seems rather loosely controlled... a 1 hr spin counts as a full day aboard if I understand what others have commented. Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses.

yes, I read 4-hours+ underway, so on the hook while fishing wouldn't count.

and while I've been around boats most of my life, I and for sure that I'll learn at least a little something in almost any course. There are plenty of things that while I've read them plenty of times, I have never really used in practice and so I struggle to remember them. As an example, one blast or two if passing port side....I can never seem to remember. I have absolutely never used that in the wild.

 

[DDW]

Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses.

Not the two I took. That would have made sense, and these didn't. California and Ontario. Maybe it's changed since.

 

[Bacchus]

"Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses."

Not the two I took. That would have made sense, and these didn't. California and Ontario. Maybe it's changed since.

What was the focus of the Calif. & Ont courses?

 

[psneeld]

yes, I read 4-hours+ underway, so on the hook while fishing wouldn't count.

and while I've been around boats most of my life, I and for sure that I'll learn at least a little something in almost any course. There are plenty of things that while I've read them plenty of times, I have never really used in practice and so I struggle to remember them. As an example, one blast or two if passing port side....I can never seem to remember. I have absolutely never used that in the wild.

Actually, I am pretty sure even at anchor time does apply to the captain of a small boat. As long as you are "on duty"....or anyone else who could be considered "on duty" like a fried who is mate/lookout, etc.

Normally 4 hrs in a 24 hrs day counts as a sea day.

As far as learning anything from state cert courses, no matter who sponsors it, it depends on the instructor. A LOT of instructors are reported to be pretty weak from all the reports I have heard.

 

[DDW]

"Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses."


What was the focus of the Calif. & Ont courses?

As I said above - licensing regulations related to small boats, intoxication of minors on jet skis, how many people does it take to watch a water skier, what is the length of a water ski rope - stuff like that. Very little if anything on rules of the road, buoyage, or anything useful.

 

[SteveK]

The basic boat operator card here appears to be very basic. When it first came out you could go to a boat show or outdoor event and pay $25 to challenge the course, write a test of your boater knowledge. I suppose that is better than nothing.

 

[rpelton]

I did my USCG OUPV and Master 100 ton upgrade course online. I really enjoyed the coursework and learned a lot. In many states where boats are rented, they require a boat safety course. My license has always served this function. Anyone who takes a course like this and says they learned nothing... well I will not judge. I also hear the people have done 4 year degrees and learned nothing...

I now do a lot of boating in Europe. There is not reciprocity unless you have . There are licensing agencies in Europe such as RYA, but I have not yet completed any of those. I've been boarded on 4 different occurrences, I always took out my USCG license, but they didn't seem interested. I'm told that they may ask for some proof of competence. Maybe this sufficed, I don't know. I think they were looking for signs of smuggling and VAT tax paid on boat.

I like the fact that I hold the credential. For that reason alone, I am glad I pursued it.

Fair winds,
Captain Bobby

Captainbobby.com

Highland Duck on the High Seas

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[Bacchus]

As I said above - licensing regulations related to small boats, intoxication of minors on jet skis, how many people does it take to watch a water skier, what is the length of a water ski rope - stuff like that. Very little if anything on rules of the road, buoyage, or anything useful.

The following are the topics req'd fr NASBLA certification. All I can say is delivery depends on the quality of instructors?

Course content and structure

• Approved course: Courses must meet NASBLA's national standards for basic boating knowledge.
• Comprehensive topics: The curriculum covers a wide range of topics, including:
  • Boat and PWC registration and legal requirements
  • Required safety equipment (life jackets, fire extinguishers, etc.)
  • Navigation rules and aids to navigation
  • Safe boat operation, knots, and anchoring
  • Emergency procedures and maintenance
  • Trailering, launching, and retrieving

 

[psneeld]

The following are the topics req'd fr NASBLA certification. All I can say is delivery depends on the quality of instructors?

Course content and structure

• Approved course: Courses must meet NASBLA's national standards for basic boating knowledge.
• Comprehensive topics:The curriculum covers a wide range of topics, including:
  • Boat and PWC registration and legal requirements
  • Required safety equipment (life jackets, fire extinguishers, etc.)
  • Navigation rules and aids to navigation
  • Safe boat operation, knots, and anchoring
  • Emergency procedures and maintenance
  • Trailering, launching, and retrieving

Unfortunately the course covers almost all boating topics while most boaters only use or need a handful. In 8 hours to include review, test, breaks and questions.... doesn't leave much time for topics in depth.

I told my students I was teaching them the outline of boating. It was up to them to go home and learn more, much more, in many of the topics they use in their boating style. Isn't that true of any course of learning? If people think learning is a waste, it's because either they or their teachers are often the problems.

 

[Bacchus]

Unfortunately the course covers almost all boating topics while most boaters only use or need a handful. In 8 hours to include review, test, breaks and questions.... doesn't leave much time for topics in depth.

I told my students I was teaching them the outline of boating. It was up to them to go home and learn more, much more, in many of the topics they use in their boating style. Isn't that true of any course of learning? If people think learning is a waste, it's because either they or their teachers are often the problems.

I agree completely. Even when my mate / Admiral took the basic USPS course which was 14 -2 hr sessions it hit the highlights and introduced participants to the subjects. USPS then had 1-2 multi session advanced courses that dug into the details.

Most participants don't know what they don't know.
For many it opens their eyes & mind... others will never admit there was anything to learn. It's hard to find a solution that satisfies most when designing a mandatory course.
IMO something is still better than nothing.

 

[drewread]

"Plus the basics, rules of the safety, road, etc is exactly the focus of state / NASBLA courses."


What was the focus of the Calif. & Ont courses?

The Ontario study guide and course absolutely does contain sections on basic "rules of the road", weather warning meanings, marker types, etc.

 

[DDW]

Perhaps they've improved it. I looked at it 17 years ago.

 

[rslifkin]

Unfortunately the course covers almost all boating topics while most boaters only use or need a handful. In 8 hours to include review, test, breaks and questions.... doesn't leave much time for topics in depth.

I told my students I was teaching them the outline of boating. It was up to them to go home and learn more, much more, in many of the topics they use in their boating style. Isn't that true of any course of learning? If people think learning is a waste, it's because either they or their teachers are often the problems.

Agreed. What I wish they'd do is make the "how to use a launch ramp" and that kind of stuff a separate course. Use the time to cover more of the important stuff, and let the people who need the additional info take the second course.

I think this was before the modern NASBLA courses, but when I was a kid, the CT course was a basic course and test for the license, and you could optionally do an extra hour or something and then a second test that got you the PWC endorsement on the license. Made sense to me, as it was easy enough to do the extra, but someone who didn't care to ever ride a jetski didn't have to sit through that part.

 

[drewread]

Perhaps they've improved it. I looked at it 17 years ago.

Well, the PCOC only became an fully official thing 16 years ago, so it would have definitely changd.

Edit: Early versions were in place as early as 1999. It became mandatory in 2009.

I have zero affiliation with any of these, but they all essentially contain the same content. They contain all the required information to help you attain your Transport Canada Pleasure Craft Operators Card (PCOC). The information is the same as it was when I took mine 16 years ago.

PCOC Study Guides:
MyBoatCard study guide
Ace Boater Study Guide
Transport Canada Boaters Guide

 

[DDW]

A cursory look at the study guide indicates that it is far more comprehensive than the ones I took - but still very, very basic. I suppose there is some value in having the weekend boater exposed to those basics.

 

[psneeld]

It's really all in the instructor......

 

[DDW]

Except many of these are on-line courses, no instructor.

 

[psneeld]

Then if NASBLA approved, they are canned or very similar in mature.

I know NJ usually required a proctored (not online) test for their safety course.... I was even told EXACTLY how the 2 4 hr session had to be laid out material/movie wise.

Fortunately no one ever said anything about my adding more in depth instruction on various topics. Supposedly the instructors were spot checked by the NJ State Police Marine division.