LED nav lights back to incandescent

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boomerang

Guru
Joined
Apr 29, 2016
Messages
1,582
Location
united states
Vessel Name
Wandering Star
Vessel Make
Hatteras 42 LRC MkII
Yep, the title is correct. The Kakanuo LED navigation lights that are currently being used on our boat are killing the AIS reception (I have no idea what effect they're having on the transmission).
I hadn't noticed the problem before because we hadn't done very much night running and in an anchorage, the nearby boats signals are strong enough to overcome the interference generated by the anchor light. I noticed recently,while anchored in a secluded anchorage, that there were no targets showing up, when I knew there were at least a half dozen commercial class A ships 5 miles away that should be showing up. When I switched off the anchor light, the screen instantly started populating with targets.
I thought the problem was because I had mounted the 3db base-loaded half-wave antenna just inches away from the LED anchor light at the masthead. I really didn't want to relocate the AIS antenna because it is naturally most efficient mounted as high as possible and it serves as a good height indicator when passing under low bridges.
I replaced the anchor light with a Lunasea LED,a more respected name in marine LED lighting. It seems better ,but targets are still lost when it's switched on.
In the meantime, I checked target loss on the AIS with the anchor light off and just the navigation lights on. Wouldn't you know it, the same damn thing happened...lost targets. I figured the offending light was the steaming light, since it was only about 4 feet below the antenna. I replaced the LED with an incandescent bulb and target reception was perhaps a little better but still ,targets were lost with the port & starboard LED nav lights on.
In desperation, I replaced the coax cable with a better quality cable, replaced the barely adequate light supply cables in the mast with tinned copper 18 gauge wires AND relocated the AIS transceiver away from the starboard running light, in hopes of reducing interference. Still the same...lost targets with any of the nav lights on.
I really don't want to give up the LED anchor light for obvious reasons but if I have to go back to higher wattage incandescent bulbs in the name of good AIS reception underway, I will, without hesitation.
Has anyone else had this issue and can you recommend a bulb that doesn't emit RF?
 
The offending bulbs.
 

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Don't just change the bulbs to get LED nav lights. Either run the spec-ed bulbs in fixtures meant for incandescents, or buy purpose-built LED nav lights that should be better about not throwing interference. I haven't had any noticeable issues with the Hella NaviLED Pros on my boat for side/stern lights or the Signal Mate steaming and anchor light.
 
A bulb thats better but not 100%
 

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Target list with lights on. The "X" through the target shows it was lost.
 

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The antenna in relation to the anchor light. I thought it might be the problem but thankfully, it's not.
 

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Don't just change the bulbs to get LED nav lights. Either run the spec-ed bulbs in fixtures meant for incandescents, or buy purpose-built LED nav lights that should be better about not throwing interference. I haven't had any noticeable issues with the Hella NaviLED Pros on my boat for side/stern lights or the Signal Mate steaming and anchor light.

You would think the name-brand Lunasea would be better but it's really not.
Oddly enough, we didn't have an interference issue on our last boat but it was a different layout altogether. The steaming and stern lights in our last boat were aftermarket ,name brand LED replacement bulbs but the red & green were e-bay specials. If a light was going to emit a lot of RF, you'd think they would've!
 
You would think the name-brand Lunasea would be better but it's really not.
Oddly enough, we didn't have an interference issue on our last boat but it was a different layout altogether. The steaming and stern lights in our last boat were aftermarket ,name brand LED replacement bulbs but the red & green were e-bay specials. If a light was going to emit a lot of RF, you'd think they would've!


For a lot of LED bulbs, RF interference just isn't a high design priority, as many are used in applications where users won't care. So even with better brands, it can be hit or miss for which ones show a problem and which ones don't (or whether they throw interference in a frequency band you care about vs elsewhere in the spectrum).
 
Interference has been a problem with LED's and the CG put out a bulletin on it several years ago. Actually there's not much advantage to LED nav lights on a power boat, the engines will be running whenever they're on so power consumption should be moot. They make a lot more sense on sailboats. Anchor and interior lights do make sense though, and you're probably not using the AIS when they're on.
 
Interference has been a problem with LED's and the CG put out a bulletin on it several years ago. Actually there's not much advantage to LED nav lights on a power boat, the engines will be running whenever they're on so power consumption should be moot. They make a lot more sense on sailboats. Anchor and interior lights do make sense though, and you're probably not using the AIS when they're on.

I understand about it not being as much of an issue while underway but I figure why use more current and consequently work the alternator more, if I don't have to?
If we're on the boat ,the AIS is on, unless we're docked at a marina. I want to be seen by those with an AIS and more importantly, our anchor app works off of the AIS.
 
You would think the name-brand Lunasea would be better but it's really not.
Oddly enough, we didn't have an interference issue on our last boat but it was a different layout altogether. The steaming and stern lights in our last boat were aftermarket ,name brand LED replacement bulbs but the red & green were e-bay specials. If a light was going to emit a lot of RF, you'd think they would've!


Our LED replacements nav "bulbs" are Bay15Ds from marinbeam.com.

https://store.marinebeam.com/bay15d-replacement-led-bulb-for-aqua-signal-series-40-50-55/

No VHF or AIS interference in our installation.

-Chris
 
Marinebeam. Probably the best, as the name implies they're made for boats so no interference was one of the design parameters. Some of the others not so much.
 
Our LED replacements nav "bulbs" are Bay15Ds from marinbeam.com.

https://store.marinebeam.com/bay15d-replacement-led-bulb-for-aqua-signal-series-40-50-55/

No VHF or AIS interference in our installation.

-Chris

Thank you, Ranger, for the link & verified recommendation. I'll get them coming asap & hopefully that lemon will be squeezed. We're getting a late start heading south this year and we'll probably see a bit of running in the dark some days of the trip.
 
Don't just change the bulbs to get LED nav lights...


Amazing how this keeps coming up. It's not only interference. Marine fixtures which were designed and approved for incandescent bulbs won't show the right characteristics if you use LEDs. The placement of the filament, and the wavelength of the light, are important.


And of course, a "native" LED fixture doesn't have the problem with corroding contacts like the old incandescent fixtures did. In my experience that's more common than a simple burned-out bulb.


My advice is always to just get an LED fixture and be done with it.
 
Some LED replacement lights are approved for certain older fixtures...I believe they are DR LEDs. I posted the certification last time this came up...but I can't say they are interference free except they ARE used on USCG and USN vessels. These services chose not to replace all their fixtures but wanted longer lasting bulbs so they had them developed by Dr LED.
 
Keep in mind that interference can be either radiated through the air, or conducted through wires. And of course you can't "see" either. Most if not all of your efforts have been focused on radiated emissions, but you might try addressing the possibility of conducted emissions. Running data and power wires through a ferrite core, and even looping it for a second pass through, can clean up a lot of conducted emissions. Many cables have the core built right in, typically because they won't pass FCC testing without it.


What AIS do you have?
 
Keep in mind that interference can be either radiated through the air, or conducted through wires. And of course you can't "see" either. Most if not all of your efforts have been focused on radiated emissions, but you might try addressing the possibility of conducted emissions. Running data and power wires through a ferrite core, and even looping it for a second pass through, can clean up a lot of conducted emissions. Many cables have the core built right in, typically because they won't pass FCC testing without it.


What AIS do you have?

I upsized the wire gauge supplying the anchor and steaming light but that was only a half-hearted attempt at correcting the issue and you're correct ,I really haven't concentrated on the problem being transmitted through the line. I suppose I could add ferrites to the lines at the source but honesty, I would rather eliminate the problem by installing a "quieter" bulb rather than putting a band aid on an inferior one. That said, thank you for the insight and if the new bulbs don't fix my issue, I'll begrudgingly try the ferrite trick.

Our AIS is a Vesper Cortex. Our last boat had a Vesper XB-8000 and I didn't notice any signal degradation when the LED lights were on.
 
Some LED replacement lights are approved for certain older fixtures...I believe they are DR LEDs. I posted the certification last time this came up...but I can't say they are interference free except they ARE used on USCG and USN vessels. These services chose not to replace all their fixtures but wanted longer lasting bulbs so they had them developed by Dr LED.

I'd hate to go to the extreme of replacing the light fixtures with new ones but pretty much everything you did on the boat when you owned it was done correctly & with the intention of making it trouble-free in the long run. The LED light bulb replacement bulbs you used never caused interference on any on the VHF radios and it wasn't until we added an AIS that I noticed they were a problem. I really hope the new bulbs fix the issue but if I have to replace the lights, I'll just have to replace the lights! I enjoy the benefits of AIS too much to compromise and save a few bucks.
 
Two wraps around a mix 61 ferrite should help reduce the led radiation issue. The chips are not radiating; its the connecting wires. Root cause is crappy electronic regulator design.
 
Two wraps around a mix 61 ferrite should help reduce the led radiation issue. The chips are not radiating; its the connecting wires. Root cause is crappy electronic regulator design.



AIS freqs are just above vhf COMM freqs. I am surprised comm is unaffected while ais is.
 
I understand about it not being as much of an issue while underway but I figure why use more current and consequently work the alternator more, if I don't have to?
If we're on the boat ,the AIS is on, unless we're docked at a marina. I want to be seen by those with an AIS and more importantly, our anchor app works off of the AIS.

Have you confirmed that the interference is preventing others from seeing you? It may not be a two way street.
 
It suggests that it’s conducted and the Cortex is susceptible. A core on the Cortex’s power and data cables would be interesting, if nothing else.

I thought the cores were to be installed as close as possible to the source? Which if that is the case, I'm not sure what benefit putting cores on the Cortex would have. Actually, installing a core on any of the lights close to the source would be a pain, except for perhaps the side lights & steaming light. There's no room for a ferrite in the anchor lite mast wire chase nor the stern lights wire run.
I do have a selection of cores that I'll try ,though, for the heck of it. Hopefully another brand of bulbs will be quieter.
 
AIS freqs are just above vhf COMM freqs. I am surprised comm is unaffected while ais is.

I know, it is odd, but we monitor 4 radios using 4 antennas and I've never noticed either break squelch when I power the AIS. Although they're most always a few MHz below the AIS frequencies on 16 & 13.
 
I used to be in the radio business. I have a couple of handhelds with marine plus ais plus dsc in Rx mode for this kind of debug.

Of course, listening to digital modulation is not exactly exciting. Some types just sound like a higher level of off channel noise.
 
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Another vote for Marine Beam. I use them for every incandescent replacement on board even the small 12v fluorescent strips in the heads. Simple to change out, not polarity sensitive, no VHF/AIS interference. Great company to work with. definitely not the cheapest but then for some types of technology, you get what you pay for.
 
I thought the cores were to be installed as close as possible to the source? Which if that is the case, I'm not sure what benefit putting cores on the Cortex would have. Actually, installing a core on any of the lights close to the source would be a pain, except for perhaps the side lights & steaming light. There's no room for a ferrite in the anchor lite mast wire chase nor the stern lights wire run.

I do have a selection of cores that I'll try ,though, for the heck of it. Hopefully another brand of bulbs will be quieter.



They work both ways. First choice is to keep the noise inside the offending product. But they also block noise coming in, so can be used defensively. You could install cores at each LED light, but that’s probably not practical. and since the Cortex appears to be the only device affected by the noise, protecting it seems like a reasonable solution. Ideally one would use LED lights that have been tested and meet FCC emissions standards, but that ship has long sailed.
 
Once the bad(culprit) signal is radiated, the goose is cooked. For radiated work, you gotta stop it at the source. No reasonable way to filter on channel noise.
If OTOH, the working freqs are much separated (dc vs VHF) that is much easier to fix.
ie: dont allow a led current driver to operate with fast rise times and unfiltered lines.

In a race to the bottom economic scenario, what is not expressly disallowed, becomes acceptable. I cant tell you how many times i see this behavior.
 
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I would be looking at the wire runs from the lights and the proximity of the coax cable from the AIS antenna. If the coax cable is close or bundled with the running light wiring you should separate the wire runs to the lights from the AIS cable. There could be problems with the shielding grounds on the coax to the AIS antenna. There needs to be a proper low resistance bond at each connection and then to the vessel ground to the antenna housing. Also it would help if the running light/anchor light were twisted pairs to help reduce emi interference or a shielded twisted pair. Check out the runs as it seems to more of a problem than the light bulbs.
 
I upsized the wire gauge supplying the anchor and steaming light but that was only a half-hearted attempt at correcting the issue and you're correct ,I really haven't concentrated on the problem being transmitted through the line. I suppose I could add ferrites to the lines at the source but honesty, I would rather eliminate the problem by installing a "quieter" bulb rather than putting a band aid on an inferior one. That said, thank you for the insight and if the new bulbs don't fix my issue, I'll begrudgingly try the ferrite trick.

Our AIS is a Vesper Cortex. Our last boat had a Vesper XB-8000 and I didn't notice any signal degradation when the LED lights were on.

I would call Garmin that now owns Vesper. You mentioned the problem happed after you installed a Cortex unit, but not with the 8000. It sound like a bad design problem or something to do with the Cortex being a VHF and AIS unit.

Did you change out the antenna? Its a story, but I had a similar problem thats why I am asking.
 
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