Kubota EA300-E2-NB1 generator suitabililty in marine environment

[condobolin]

We are considering purchase of a vessel equipped with Kubota HP: 6 Diesel Model # EA300-E2-NB1 generator. We hadn't paid much attention to the generator during our initial informal inspections with the owner. We had the vessel surveyed yesterday (report will be a couple days away). The surveyor verbally expressed concerns about the suitability and practicality of the installation. Our "radars" are up with concern and they are problematic since otherwise we like the vessel (a Pacific Trawler 40). Also thinking ahead to our eventual sale of the vessel as to finding a buyer who would confront the same concerns we have. At this point we don't know how well marinized the generator is and planning a discussion with surveyor regarding his findings in that regard. Also some concerned about procedural steps required in the engine room each time we start the generator - with getting salt water into the main diesel if steps not properly accomplished prior to start - and a "day tank" concept applied to the fuel tank. Would appreciate comments on the suitability of this generator and any other comments or cautions. Here's a link to the owner's website describing the vessel: pacifictrawler.com

 

[tiltrider1]

I believe what you really have is a Panda Generator that uses the Kubota EA300 engine. You will need to be more specific about your marination concerns.

My impression is that the Panda Generator is an inferior product but I have no real experience with it and I am just going off of 3rd party comments.

 

[Bmarler]

There are a few generators that use the kubota 6hp engine. Would need more info to determine suitability.
Definitely don’t like the possibility of back flooding the main though.
Why, I wonder, with such a nice vessel overall, did they go this way with the generator?
I can’t see if it directly makes 120 volt, or if it just makes 12 volt with the alternator on it and the inverter makes up the house 120 volt.

 

[condobolin]

Concerns: It’s not a marine-certified engine, meaning it lacks built-in protections against saltwater corrosion, galvanic reactions, and marine-grade electrical shielding. Looking for experiences of others using this particular generator in the saltwater environment.

 

[condobolin]

There are a few generators that use the kubota 6hp engine. Would need more info to determine suitability.
Definitely don’t like the possibility of back flooding the main though.
Why, I wonder, with such a nice vessel overall, did they go this way with the generator?
I can’t see if it directly makes 120 volt, or if it just makes 12 volt with the alternator on it and the inverter makes up the house 120 volt.

Yes, it only makes 12v DC and AC to the house comes via the inverter. Also seems curious to me but the water maker requires this generator be operating to make water.

 

[DDW]

Looks like a pretty nice boat to me. I would not reject it based on the generator. That boat has a lot of upper deck space, use some for solar and forget about (or modify to fix) the generator concerns. I think on resale the story is the same, doesn't have a "known" generator like a Kohler or NL, anything else will be looked at as suspect. You should be able to completely separate the generator from the main engine for cooling, with some modification. You didn't say what the specific problem is, but it can't be worse than a new raw intake and new muffler out.

 

[Bmarler]

Ok, the water maker high pressure pump runs off it too. I wondered what that was in the mechanical section.
I don’t exactly mind the non marine certification, but most people would. It’s really only the engine wiring harness that isn’t marine rated. The day tank is a pain, depending on how often it needs filled, but not a deal breaker.
It seems like the person that designed the system was fairly mechanically inclined, and didn’t mind the complexity. That narrows down the potential buyers for the vessel for no good reason. Surely there must have been a more mainstream genset to fit the space.
If it were me, I’d factor in the price to address the possible genset replacement, water maker pump (unless I’m mistaken about it being belt driven) , and whatever needs to happen to eliminate the possibility of salt water back feeding the main engine.

 

[Diep]

I think its a nice looking vessel and I don't think I would reject it on the basis of the generator situation. But I am an engineer and mechanically inclined.

Depending on how you cruise you may not really need the gen much. The vessel looks very light on AC demand. When you look at it from that perspective, making 12v to charge batteries makes sense. A lot of boats with a conventional generator arrangement have one which is oversized relative to the AC and charger loads that are put on them. If you are on the go a lot, the main engine alternator probably keeps up fine. How often will you need to make water?

As was mentioned above you could add some solar to help out and really diminish the need for the generator.

 

[condobolin]

I think its a nice looking vessel and I don't think I would reject it on the basis of the generator situation. But I am an engineer and mechanically inclined.

Depending on how you cruise you may not really need the gen much. The vessel looks very light on AC demand. When you look at it from that perspective, making 12v to charge batteries makes sense. A lot of boats with a conventional generator arrangement have one which is oversized relative to the AC and charger loads that are put on them. If you are on the go a lot, the main engine alternator probably keeps up fine. How often will you need to make water?

As was mentioned above you could add some solar to help out and really diminish the need for the generator.

We don't really care about making water - over two hundred gallons of tankage for potable water. Our cruising pattern is a week on the hook in a cozy hole in BC or Alaska then 20 miles to the next cozy hole. The time on the hook with small periods of engine operation is a challenge without some additional source of electricity.

 

[Diep]

With that cruising agenda you will definitely be running the gen. Even if you added solar.

Sounds like maybe the generator (really just an engine with belt driven pump and alternator?) shares raw water intake and exhaust with the main. If this is the case, switching to a traditional generator system will be a fair amount of work. Intake, strainer, exhaust, AC panel tie-in etc. Basically a new install.

 

[Mac2]

We don't really care about making water - over two hundred gallons of tankage for potable water. Our cruising pattern is a week on the hook in a cozy hole in BC or Alaska then 20 miles to the next cozy hole. The time on the hook with small periods of engine operation is a challenge without some additional source of electricity.

You just described why you need a watermaker-continuous anchoring out. 200 gallons doesn’t last as long as you think. I hated having to look for watering holes when gunkholing.

 

[condobolin]

With that cruising agenda you will definitely be running the gen. Even if you added solar.

Sounds like maybe the generator (really just an engine with belt driven pump and alternator?) shares raw water intake and exhaust with the main. If this is the case, switching to a traditional generator system will be a fair amount of work. Intake, strainer, exhaust, AC panel tie-in etc. Basically a new install.

Had a long chat with our surveyor this morning - he said essentially the same thing and estimated installing a marine generator (and removing the old) would cost around $30-$35K when all was said and done.

 

[BruceK]

Had a long chat with our surveyor this morning - he said essentially the same thing and estimated installing a marine generator (and removing the old) would cost around $30-$35K when all was said and done.

Let`s add some balance.
Someone took the trouble to design and install the generator, and apparently it works.
To my understanding, the Panda genset with a reputation is the high rpm Panda Fischer.
Kubota engines were the powerplant of older highly regarded Onan gensets, and highly reliable. Query later ones too.
By all means make some allowance for a left field genset, but also follow the old adage "if it ain`t broken don`t fix it".
PS. "Condobolin" is a rural town in the NSW State of Australia

 

[Diep]

I'm still not 100% but I don't think this is a Panda or even has a generator head. Just a small kubota turning belts.

There is something interesting about it. It may work quite well.

I peeked at the AC panel photo and it looks like the inverter runs a bunch of outlet circuits and that is it. So AC is basically limited to convenience items. Kitchen electrics, microwave, etc. I have often thought a boat like that would really benefit from a DC generator if it was more of a thing. That appears to be basically what they did and the architecture could work slick if the design and implementation is good.

 

[Bmarler]

I totally agree, but it sounds like the implementation leaves something to be desired. Like fuel source, some procedure that makes you go into the engine room to start it, etc…might be able to be remedied with the right person doing the work.
I saw an almost identical unit earlier this year, but someone stole it before the owner decided what to do with it.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I am also of the opinion of "if it works don't fix it" Enough stuff on a boat needs fixing w/o worry of the stuff that don't.

Looks like a sweet boat. Probably a reason for that -

 

[Jeff F]

I peeked at the AC panel photo and it looks like the inverter runs a bunch of outlet circuits and that is it. So AC is basically limited to convenience items. Kitchen electrics, microwave, etc. I have often thought a boat like that would really benefit from a DC generator if it was more of a thing. That appears to be basically what they did and the architecture could work slick if the design and implementation is good.

I've seen.similar setups on sailboats. If you don't have AC, use gas for cooking and run the water maker off the small motor there's no need for an AC genset. Sounds like a fine solution.

If there are specific installation concerns then have them addressed, but replacing it with an AC genset seems like the wrong solution to me.

 

[DDW]

Small DC gensets where quite popular in sailboats for a time. There were several models offered commercially, including the Fischer-Panda. Decent ones could charge at 150 or 200A, not possible with normal gensets (because the charger usually isn't that big).

Adding a thru hull, strainer, and muffler exhaust isn't a ton of work. If that was the only problem. Of course there may be details and obstructions that make it complicated.

 

[Iggy]

I have the same boat but one year newer. A very good solid boat. If it was my boat, I would think about a NL genset. Maybe in a year or two. For me, a genset is a must. I did install a small solar system, just in case the genset went down. But too many panels would be needed to do with out.

It all depends on the type of boating you do too.

 

[Keysdisease]

Kubota is an excellent engine used by many Generator Manufacturers because of its reliability. The smaller Northern Lights and Onan units for example use Kubota.
Re marinization, if the engine is fitted with a water cooled exhaust manifold and a heat exchanger, of if drystack, just a heat exchanger, that's really all there is to "marinization" of a diesel. That's what fresh water cooling is, and any zincs will be in the salt water loop, not the "fresh water" (coolant) loop) through the engine.
I looked and did not see any pictures of the generator. If its a branded Marine Generator it should be fine, if it's a cobbled together generator using Kabota, it could be anything from excellent to ruh-roh.
I certainly would not be concerned just because you don't recognize the Kubota brand, if I were shopping I would consider that a plus
$00.02

 

[condobolin]

Let`s add some balance.
Someone took the trouble to design and install the generator, and apparently it works.
To my understanding, the Panda genset with a reputation is the high rpm Panda Fischer.
Kubota engines were the powerplant of older highly regarded Onan gensets, and highly reliable. Query later ones too.
By all means make some allowance for a left field genset, but also follow the old adage "if it ain`t broken don`t fix it".
PS. "Condobolin" is a rural town in the NSW State of Australia

Sound advice to be sure. And Condobolin is the town of my birth.

 

[condobolin]

I've seen.similar setups on sailboats. If you don't have AC, use gas for cooking and run the water maker off the small motor there's no need for an AC genset. Sounds like a fine solution.

If there are specific installation concerns then have them addressed, but replacing it with an AC genset seems like the wrong solution to me.

One of our concerns regarding the generator so far unspoken is that while the present set "works," it is awkward to use - requires crawling into the engine room for each start, performing 7-8 steps in the proper order prior to start, then reversing all that when the process is complete. And understanding that it's possible to get salt water into the main engine if not properly accomplished. The surveyor described it as "Rube Goldberg," and "jury rigged," and "as though a child put it together." We are procedure oriented by training and careers, so within our capability to deal with the complexity and idiosyncrasies. However, we intend to own this vessel if purchased for maybe 5 years at most because of our ages. We know that at least one previous purchaser so far passed up the boat because of dislike for the generator setup. And we worry that we are going to have to "pay later" with a difficult sale if we don't address the issue now.

 

[sean9c]

There was a guy on Orcas Island that made Kabota engine based generators and watermakers, the name was, maybe Aqua Marine or something like that. Rube Goldberg is a fitting description of his products. They are really a contraption. They required a lot of owner modifications with the installations, so each installation was different and often incorrect. They were also really basic, so lots of fiddling to get and keep them running.
If you want to keep your generator figure out what's wrong with the install and fix it or hoe the thing out and replace it. I'd advise just getting something that's plug and play like a little Northern Lights and just be done with it.

 

[tiltrider1]

One of our concerns regarding the generator so far unspoken is that while the present set "works," it is awkward to use - requires crawling into the engine room for each start, performing 7-8 steps in the proper order prior to start, then reversing all that when the process is complete. And understanding that it's possible to get salt water into the main engine if not properly accomplished. The surveyor described it as "Rube Goldberg," and "jury rigged," and "as though a child put it together." We are procedure oriented by training and careers, so within our capability to deal with the complexity and idiosyncrasies. However, we intend to own this vessel if purchased for maybe 5 years at most because of our ages. We know that at least one previous purchaser so far passed up the boat because of dislike for the generator setup. And we worry that we are going to have to "pay later" with a difficult sale if we don't address the issue now.

You have a right to be concerned. I am a creature of comfort. I throw a switch and push a button to get generator power. I do this from my electrical panel. The idea of having to go into the engine room as well would be a deal killer.

Your surveyor has given you good advice. Treat this boat as if it had no generator and ask questions and negotiate from that perspective. If this is a true solar supplied boat that needs a generator once every 5 years then I find it acceptable. If it’s like my boat where the generator is used 10 times a year then it is not acceptable and you will be spending another $35,000.

There is one other issue, just the potential of damaging your mains kills this for me. Good old Murphy gets me every time, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong.

 

[SteveK]

Good old Murphy gets me every time, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong.

Tilt, you need a sig line

 

[Shrew]

No pictures of the generator. I'm curious what makes the surveyor think this is a problem. What is the starting procedure? I'm curious how not following the correct starting procedure gets raw water into the diesel. Those two systems aren't really connected.

 

[tiltrider1]

Tilt, you need a sig line

My tag line should be “if it hasn’t gone wrong it’s just waiting for a less opportune time to go wrong”

Having spent most of my life in aviation has made me a skeptic. I’m an old pilot, I’m not a bold pilot.

 

[condobolin]

No pictures of the generator. I'm curious what makes the surveyor think this is a problem. What is the starting procedure? I'm curious how not following the correct starting procedure gets raw water into the diesel. Those two systems aren't really connected.

Your point is well taken about getting sea water into the main. I misunderstood when the surveyor said there was risk of getting sea water into the engine I mistakenly interpreted that as into the main. What he said was "getting sea water into the engine," meaning into the generator engine. In a further conversation he mentioned that he saw evidence that there had been sea water in the generator engine at one time.

Regarding start procedure, the present owner has the procedure written step by step - steps I'm unfamiliar with and can't recall in any detail - other than to remember there are 7 or 8 of them and they require being in the engine room - and that the gen will run for about an hour or so then the day tank needs to be refilled - which requires a trip down into the engine room.

 

[Shrew]

I never made a point about the "main', nor did I mention it. I did say 'diesel' when I meant generator. There shouldn't be a 7-8 steps to starting a generator. I still don't see how you're going to accidentally get seawater into the generator if you don't start it correctly.

I'm surprised you paid a surveyor who can't elaborate on the generator problems he's concerned about.

Here is my starting procedure

1) Start Generator
2) After 5 min. put AC load onto the generator.

 

[luna]

The Kubota EA-300 - E2 engine has it's own built in radiator, and cooling fan to cool the 1.2 liters of coolant running through the system. No coolant pump just convection moves the coolant.

This raises the question what cools the exhaust? A separate raw water pump and shower head could do it and depending on the design, result in raw water filling the engine if you needed to crank this single cylinder engine over a lot to get it to go.

Going into the E.R. to start an engine (my first start of the day is always from the E.R.) is not always a bad thing.