Ketten Walder Stainless anchor chain

[Insequent]

I am in the process of removing my Excel #8 anchor and 10mm chain from the boat and likely getting them re-galvanised. Due to flooding the River is closed for recreational purposes so its a convenient time to do it.

For the anchor, its a given to re-galv. But for the chain there are other options, including new G3 (L grade locally), and possibly G4, or Stainless steel.

I am waiting on a quote from one local supplier who stocks Ketten Walder Stainless Steel chain. The spec. looks pretty good but the price may well be a bit rich for me. Nonetheless, has anybody used their chain? Their CXP has the correct pitch.
https://www.cromox-us.com/products/nautic/anchor-chain/cromox®-windlass-anchor-chain-cxa-cxi-cxp

 

[O C Diver]

I use to teach scuba diving. 30 years ago Scubapro came out with a Titanium dive knife ($160). Use to tell students, " You never want to own a knife that you can't leave, if you drop it where you can't recover it". Stainless steel anchors and chains fall in that category, IMO. I think they're fine if you only use them as a bow ornament.

If you regalvanize the chain, see some that they've done before. Some do it much better than others.

Ted

 

[woolf]

The Mercedes Benz of chains coming from Germany, and at a price as well. We had it on another boat and very happy with it. No corrosion in warm water, like other ss chains.

 

[Simi 60]

I use to teach scuba diving. 30 years ago Scubapro came out with a Titanium dive knife ($160). Use to tell students, " You never want to own a knife that you can't leave, if you drop it where you can't recover it". Stainless steel anchors and chains fall in that category, IMO. I think they're fine if you only use them as a bow ornament.

If you regalvanize the chain, see some that they've done before. Some do it much better than others.

Ted

We treat chain as a consumable

Happy to chop out 15 to 20 metres every couple of years to get back into relatively unused goodness

Sacrificed bit has usually no galv and not going through chain wheel as nicely as it did.

Have a box of load rated made in Japan ACCO forged C links on board that rate higher than the chain strength so join in a new length of chain in with a soft shackle backup.
Goes through our chain wheel no issue at all.

Having had hard pressed sailing vessels that suffered stress fatigue in rigging I could never sleep well with S/S gear down there

 

[twistedtree]

Here's the summary of my experience. Great chain, horrific company to deal with. Only purchase if the seller has the chain physically on hand. Otherwise expect hell with a factory order. And VERY carefully figure out in advance how you are going to shackle the chain to your anchor without seriously compromising the strength of the chain.


Here's the longer story.


I have 600' of this chain enroute (I hope) to my boat. For a variety of reasons I decided to bite the bullet and switch to stainless. A friend has it on his boat and believes it's one of the best choices he's made in boat gear. It's much easier to keep it clean, and it doesn't make a mess of the chain locker, and over time a mess of the deck topside.


The Ketten Walder G60 chain (CROMOX brand name) is the only stainless, at least that Ive found, that has a strength rating equal or better than G40 galvanized chain. I didn't want to compromise strength, so it was the only choice.


One thing to watch carefully are the link sizes, and in particular what size shackle pin will fit through the link. This is a significant problem with the 12mm and 13mm (1/2" equivalent) chain. 1/2" chain is such that a 5/8" shackle pin will fit through the link. This allows use of a shackle who's WLL is the same or greater than the chain WLL. But with the 12mm or 13mm chain, the largest shackle pin that will fit is a 1/2" shackle and that becomes a significant weak link. For my friend's chain, the only solution we could find that didn't reduce WLL below that of a G43 Galvanized rig was a specialized hardened Crosby coupler. It's an excellent device, but is not galvanized so rusts. He has decided to just replace it annually to deal with that.


The preferred solution is to have Ketten Walder weld a 16mm link (one size larger than the chain) into each end of the chain. That gives you a link that's large enough to use with a galvanized shackle that is strong enough. So that's what I've done, but keep in mind that it's only possible with a length ordered from the factory. I expect you could have a larger link field-welded, but I'd always wonder how strong it really was.


Oh, and forget using any sort of stainless shackle. They are all way too weak to match the strength of the chain.


Now the down side. Cost. The stuff is horrifically expensive. Figure on 3x the cost of galvanized G43 chain.


I have also had a VERY poor experience dealing with Ketten Walder as a company. I bought through their US office and was quoted 2 weeks production time plus surface freight to Seattle. On Nov 22 I made payment in full, and checked in about a month later to get tracking info. Every inquiry, by the way, has taken at least two notes from me before I get a response. Absolutely everything I have had to bug them over and over again to get answered. After bugging them about shipping info I'm told that it won't be finished until the end of January. WTF? 2 weeks production somehow turned into 2 months production? I was really pissed, and considered cancelling the order, but decided to stick with it. It supposedly shipped the middle of February, and I am currently trying to figure out where it might be. We plan to depart Seattle in about 3 weeks, hopefully with this new chain onboard, but I'm not holding my breath.



So my advice is:


1) Figure out in advance how you will shackle this chain to your anchor, paying careful attention to the link dimensions and shackle pin dimensions. Hint: You can't do it without compromising the chain strength, or using ungalvanized couplers. The solution is to have one size larger links welded into each end of the chain (so you can reverse it in the future), but that implies a factory order which I do not recommend.



2) I really cannot recommend dealing with Ketten Walder as a company. My experience has been terrible. Try to buy from someone who actually has the chain in stock. But if you do that you won't be able (I don't think) to get larger links welded into the ends to address the shackle problem. If you do have to order from the factory, try to arrange for 50% payment at order time, and 50% on delivery just to keep them on their toes. I obviously should have done that myself.

 

[NEtrawler58]

I have Suncor 316L SS chain that is made in the US and I purchased domestically. I needed English, not metric sizing and my belief is that this is excellent quality and less expensive than German made or other imported chain.


https://suncorstainless.com/custom-chain-assemblies/


On thing most people don't consider is the galvanic effect of dissimilar metals between anchors and chains. When I bought a SS anchor and noticed some slight corrosion of the galvanized chain where it connected to the SS shackle, I bought SS chain as well. The ornamental appearance is a bonus but was not a driving factor. Other bonuses is how clean it comes up from the bottom and nicely it stores because it is much more slippery than galvanized.

 

[rslifkin]

The Ketten Walder chain is better than 316L from what I know. I think it's 318LN. There's also 2205 duplex chain out there.

 

[twistedtree]

I have Suncor 316L SS chain that is made in the US and I purchased domestically. I needed English, not metric sizing and my belief is that this is excellent quality and less expensive than German made or other imported chain.


https://suncorstainless.com/custom-chain-assemblies/


On thing most people don't consider is the galvanic effect of dissimilar metals between anchors and chains. When I bought a SS anchor and noticed some slight corrosion of the galvanized chain where it connected to the SS shackle, I bought SS chain as well. The ornamental appearance is a bonus but was not a driving factor. Other bonuses is how clean it comes up from the bottom and nicely it stores because it is much more slippery than galvanized.

I considered it as well and it looks like excellent chain. The down side for me is that for the same size it's it's about 75% of the WLL of G43. For better or worse, I didn't want something with a lower WLL than the 1/2 G43 that I currently have. I could have gone up a size, but that would have driven up costs, and likely created an overflow of my chain box. But each application needs to sort out these details to see what works for them.

 

[twistedtree]

The Ketten Walder chain is better than 316L from what I know. I think it's 318LN. There's also 2205 duplex chain out there.

That's right. 1/2" G43 is 4.2 metric ton WLL. 1/2" 316L is 3.3MT, and the CROMOX 13mm is 8MT and the 12mm is 7MT.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Thanks for the info. Ultra also makes some allegedly good SS chain albeit expensive as well. I thought the Suncor domestic chain was very good quality although I never expected it to be the absolute best that money can buy. Like most things, we find a balance that's acceptable. I'm not even close to being a novice when discussing different types of stainless alloys. I can read a chart, but I don't know that overall breaking strength is the only or even most important factor for use as an anchor chain. I would research further, but perhaps you already have. There are some schools of thought that say to never use SS for anchor chain. Regardless, good luck, let us know where you end up.

 

[Insequent]

Thanks all. Its comforting to know the Cromox chain has a good rep.

Serafini Chains are a local chain manufacturer here is Brisbane. They have 316 chain, but I want more info on it. The Cromox chain is 318LN.

Twisted, thanks for your cautionary tale. We'll see what the Coomera supplier (large marine precinct an hour away from me on the Gold Coast) says about stock, and I wont be making a special order that's for sure.

Here's the summary of my experience. Great chain, horrific company to deal with. Only purchase if the seller has the chain physically on hand. Otherwise expect hell with a factory order. And VERY carefully figure out in advance how you are going to shackle the chain to your anchor without seriously compromising the strength of the chain.

{snip}.....


1) Figure out in advance how you will shackle this chain to your anchor, paying careful attention to the link dimensions and shackle pin dimensions. Hint: You can't do it without compromising the chain strength, or using ungalvanized couplers. The solution is to have one size larger links welded into each end of the chain (so you can reverse it in the future), but that implies a factory order which I do not recommend.

Here is what I was planning on using to attach to the anchor. Apparently its a new product from Cromox.
https://www.bridco.com.au/cromox-quick-connection-shackle-csvs

 

[Insequent]

First quote obtained. 316 chain is 4.9 x cost of galv (Grade L or 30).

But I found this comment about 318LN on the net. Given anchor chain is in tensile stress and seawater, I really don't want to use 316!

318LN duplex stainless steel is an economical and effective solution for applications where 300 series stainless steel are susceptible to chloride stress corrosion cracking. When stainless steel is subjected to tensile stress, stress corrosion cracking will occur in contact with a solution containing chloride, and rising temperature will also increase the sensitivity of stainless steel to stress corrosion cracking. The combination of chromium, molybdenum, and nitrogen enhances the 318LN’s resistance to chloride pitting and crevice corrosion, which is critical for services such as marine environments, brackish water, bleaching operations, closed-loop water systems, and some food processing applications. In most environments, 318LN’s high chromium, molybdenum and nitrogen content provides superior corrosion resistance to ordinary stainless steels such as 316L and 317L.

 

[twistedtree]

Here is what I was planning on using to attach to the anchor. Apparently its a new product from Cromox.
https://www.bridco.com.au/cromox-quick-connection-shackle-csvs

I looked at that too and unless I'm reading the dimensional drawing incorrectly, I don't think it helps. The pins for shackles that have matching WLL, or at least the same WLL as the G43 chain you would be replacing, are too big to fit through the chain link. The 13mm links have about a 16mm opening (varies depending on whether it's DIN 766 or ISO link sizes). The biggest shackle that would fit through the link is the 8mm one with a WLL of only 1.55T.


Are you seeing it differently?

 

[Insequent]

I think you looked at it more thoroughly than I have so far! Yes there is a problem.

I have just been talking to another supplier. Their cromox chain is a bit over AUD$100/m, so not all that much of a premium to the 316 quoted by someone else. And I simply will not use 316. But given I'll be selling my boat in +/-5 years the cost/benefit of cromox doesn't work for me.

Typically in Australia Grade 30 (grade L) is used, and is PWB (ex Japan made in China) or Titan (ex Canada made in China). I have found a supplier of OMC of Grade 43 (also made in China) that is cheaper than Serafini (grade 30 made in Australia) so that is likely the way I will go but I will get a re-galv quote anyway.

Current chain is Titan. And the galv thickness on it was poor IMO. Initially I was going to treat the rusty part and end-for-end the chain. But having exposed the "good" end the galv on it is already half depleted even though its seldom been dunked. Of course it gets wet regularly when I haul anchor, and I don't fresh-water rinse.

 

[Simi 60]

These guys at Yatala were advertising Grade L recently coming in from Force Chain - Turkey

https://hampidjan.com.au/product/chain-connectors/grade-l-chain-as2321/

https://www.forcechain.com/

 

[Insequent]

These guys at Yatala were advertising Grade L recently coming in from Force Chain - Turkey

https://hampidjan.com.au/product/chain-connectors/grade-l-chain-as2321/

https://www.forcechain.com/

I can't see any prices. It may be fine. However, the pitch (internal length) does not match my windlass. Its close, but a new gypsy/wildcat is over a grand so I'd like to buy the correct pitch chain for the gypsy I have.

Muir tell me that one issue with re-galv that they see from time to time is that chain stretches a little with use. Extending the chain life by re-galv results in using chain where the pitch is incorrect much longer than would otherwise be the case, and early replacement of the gypsy due to wear. Its probably something that only happens with a lot of use. I try and anchor out over 100 days a year, which may not be enough use for the problem to occur but best avoided in any case.

Also, I like the idea of grade 43 rather than grade L.

 

[twistedtree]

For bang for the buck, it's hard to beat G43. The galvi just has a limited life span.


I'd be cautious of re-galvanizing. I'd say 80-90% of the people I know who have regalvanized wished they had just bought new chain. Complaints are that the chain sticks to the gypsy and/or sheds galvi flakes all over the place.

 

[Peter B]

Brian, I've been following this thread for a bit. When I bought Lotus, I was forced by the survey to buy new. Got good quality, (sorry can't quote a magic number) short link 10mm galvanised chain. and frankly it was excellent, and the galv lasted extremely well, even though I was almost never able to fresh water wash it.

I end-for-ended it once after about 10 years of the 16 we owned her for. Chopped off about 2 metres of the most rusty end, now fixed with 2m nylon in locker, and she was good to go. The last half of the chain almost never needed where we anchored anyway, so end-for-ended, what you saw virtually looked like new. That chain is still going strong for the new owner.

You say you will probably sell her in about 5 years. My vote would be for just good new galvanised, based on our getting 16 years plus out of new, and in largely the same waters you boat in.

 

[Insequent]

Pete
Yes, I'm going with galv chain, and can get G43 for a good price. I do anchor out a lot, usually over 100 days a year so its does get wet often! My previous chain was new in Feb 2018, so only 4 years old. I typically use 20-40m of it, and that was certainly getting quite rusty. I am treating it with rust converter and will then paint it before end-for-end. The remaining 70m of chain would at best have a couple of years life as a fair amount of the galv has disappeared. It was CMP (Titan) chain, grade L. This chain is primarily designed for lifting, and simply does not have adequate thickness of galv IMO for marine use. But it is commonly sold for that purpose here.

I only want a short time with the old chain, but it could be a couple of months before I can get close to the supplier. The G43 has 50% more load rating so I'm keen to install it before going up north this year. I want the drum of new chain sitting under my bow roller when replacing. Trying to manhandle 300kg of chain anywhere is not something that I want to do.

 

[BruceK]

Pete
Yes, I'm going with galv chain, and can get G43 for a good price. I do anchor out a lot, usually over 100 days a year so its does get wet often! My previous chain was new in Feb 2018, so only 4 years old. I typically use 20-40m of it, and that was certainly getting quite rusty. I am treating it with rust converter and will then paint it before end-for-end. The remaining 70m of chain would at best have a couple of years life as a fair amount of the galv has disappeared. It was CMP (Titan) chain, grade L. This chain is primarily designed for lifting, and simply does not have adequate thickness of galv IMO for marine use. But it is commonly sold for that purpose here.

I only want a short time with the old chain, but it could be a couple of months before I can get close to the supplier. The G43 has 50% more load rating so I'm keen to install it before going up north this year. I want the drum of new chain sitting under my bow roller when replacing. Trying to manhandle 300kg of chain anywhere is not something that I want to do.

That`s how we loaded 80M into the previous boat, parked it bow in and the Muir windlass did the job. What paint will you use? We used Galvafroid years ago,though not on boat chain.

 

[Insequent]

Bruce, I'll just use whatever oil-based paint I have at home, some kind of enamel. The rust converter instructions say to get something on top of it within a short period. They do say zinc-rich paint is not recommended.

The paint job will be far from perfect, but good enough to limit additional rusting to spots. The objective is just to stop a big ball of rust forming at the bottom of the anchor locker that has to be cut out or whatever.

I've done this before and the paint held up surprisingly well. You just paint one side of the chain, next day roll it over and paint the other side. Coverage is not 100% but still good enough. However, its definitely only a short term thing.

 

[Simi 60]

We got possibly the last 80m of the oz made PWB 13mm from Ozzi Marine Coomera
Darrren works there and at Muirs next door
https://ozzimarine.com.au/

He bought it up to Cleveland in a 44 gallon drum, reversed down the boatramp and we bought the tender up to his tray.
He has a winder on the drum and had it in our dinghy in a matter of minutes.

We had anchored out front
Had the snubber on then spooled the remainder of our old unused chain out and attached the end to the bulwark.

Bought tender under bow, line dropped down to me, attach new chain, pulled it up onto chainwheel and wound it aboard.

Used the rated ACCO Joiner and soft shackle to join onto old chain and wound it back in , anchor up and on our way again in under and hour.

Was surprised at how easy it went, was expecting it to be a sh1tfight for sure

 

[Insequent]

Yes, Darren's the man. I bought my Muir windlass there in Feb 2018. I'll likely try and go into the travellift bay at GCCM when no lifts are scheduled unless he comes up with a better idea. No joins for me. Probably 150m new G43. On the outer reef its typically 20m and often 30 m to clear sandy bottom. Then in future if mostly in the Bay I can chop off a rusty section if need be.

 

[Simi 60]

Yep, not fussed on the join myself but like I said previously, it's ACCO, forged, Japanese build and it is rated stronger than the chain plus there is a soft shackle backup again, stronger than the chain.

Saying that, we have yet to actually use it as we still have approx 60m of the old 80m length in play, usually only spool out 40 , 50 on a bad day.

 

[rslifkin]

Easiest way to get chain aboard is definitely to get the bow over land. Or to do it while the boat is on land. Same goes for installing a new anchor. Just get it near the boat and let the windlass do the rest of the work.

 

[BruceK]

I have(still in its packet, for a revamp that never happened) a 10mm "Chain Split Link", bought at Whitworths branded RW Basham(RWB is a known chandlery supplier) marked "316",and "Made in Thailand". I need an 8mm version to increase my current 55M of chain to around 80M.
How to know if the link is any good? It appears to come from reliable sources, but....

 

[Insequent]

I have(still in its packet, for a revamp that never happened) a 10mm "Chain Split Link", bought at Whitworths branded RW Basham(RWB is a known chandlery supplier) marked "316",and "Made in Thailand". I need an 8mm version to increase my current 55M of chain to around 80M.
How to know if the link is any good? It appears to come from reliable sources, but....

Just display the 10mm one on your mantlepiece or somewhere! A split link, even if a good one, is risky enough but definitely don't rely on 316. See blue bit in post #12 above. Get one of the ones Simi describes, they will be galv mild steel I'm sure.

 

[Simi 60]

An article worth reading here with testing results
Acco/Peerless connecting link or Crosby missing link are the only ones I considered, forged steel and galvanised and in the 13mm size we use, tested stronger than the Grade L chain it's joining.
Hard to get in Oz, I ended up getting a box in from the US via eBay

See the cast s/s ones are like chocolate aero bars
C-links – Cox Engineering

 

[BruceK]

I lifted this "Conclusion" from the doc Simi posted:
"Heat-treated, carbon steel C-links that are marked with a load standard are virtually as strong as the chain which they join. Provided they will pass through the gypsy, which most will, they are fully acceptable for yachting use.


Stainless steel C-links are less strong than carbon steel equivalents but are adequate for general use. Although they will not rust in normal anchoring use, they can promote increased rates of zinc loss from attached chain, by galvanic action. Use them with caution.


Links of the type often seen in chandleries, unmarked and of unknown origin, should be avoided. Many seem to be badly made, of inappropriate materials, and to use them for anchoring would be risky."


Apart from Category 3 about anonymous links "often seen in chandleries", the links fare reasonably well, with gal steel preferred over s/steel. For malleability,I wonder.

Looking again at the joiner link I have,as well as the "316" I found markings which look like "OO l W", significance lost on me but might mean something to someone else.
It`s understandable an English article provides English product sources. Perhaps someone in the chain business might know Aussie sources for rated non stainless joiner links.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

The KW chain is, and has been for a few years, standard equipment for all Fleming yachts. It's where I first encountered it, aboard Tony Fleming's Venture.