Is a survey enough?

[proudsailor]

Offer in on a late 80s trawler. Good design and very seaworthy, but meh quality reputation for that era and Taiwanese yard. Previous owners have added some valuable systems to the boat, but very limited records of any sort, maintenance or otherwise. Engine overhaul per broker a decade ago of the Ford Lehman 135 w/ 7000hrs, but limited documentation. Current owner is the 7th in its 35 year history. We can get the boat at what we believe a reasonable price considering its equipment, but unsure considering maintenance documentation is lacking. And the boat only appears to be minimally maintained. Selling broker assures us he'd head to the islands tomorrow in it but also fully acknowledges maintenance is lacking. He does know the boat as he sold it before and has been builder/broker for the brand for decades.

I'm grateful for the collective wisdom, especially of the very seasoned folks on TF. We love this particular model, this boat has everything we seek equipment wise in our first live-aboard, but the lack of records scares the you-know-what out of me. Here are the questions:

1. Will a really good survey do the trick? Are we likely to catch MOST of the neglected maintenance on a survey? What has been the experience of others in a similar situation?
2. Will a high quality engine survey and fluid analysis tell me rebuild status? And predict longevity?
3. What else should we/could we do for some peace of mind? I acknowledge we'd be buying a 35 year old boat for which full piece of mind may be limited.:lol:
4. This being our first significant ($200k+) boat purchase, am I being overly concerned without knowing maintenance history? My wife is all in (and pushing) but I'm high maintenance and need lots of reassurance!

 

[tiltrider1]

A survey is only as good as the surveyor.

Survey’s usually only catch what is already failed but not fixed or items that do not meet safety standards.

On the other hand I would never buy a boat with out a survey.

Once the boat is surveyed you will have a better idea of how much deferred maintenance and how close that aligns with your expectations.

 

[SteveK]

Insurance. My recent experience on a 30+ year old boat, not current boat, survey needed, then all items noted on survey repaired before underwriters willing to quote, if even then.
Several offers of liability only were made. The boat needs to survey as 'average' for the vintage and year.

 

[Blissboat]

My surveyor would be the first to admit that his or anyone else's survey can't possibly catch everything. To a certain extent he's saying that just to protect himself, but it's true. Things may look, sound and feel okay at the dock or during sea-trial, but once you start actually using a boat, its demons will awaken.

My surveyor also has this to say about older Taiwan-built boats in particular, but it applies universally: once a boat reaches a certain age, it no longer matters how well it was built and equipped. What matters is how well it's been maintained. Put differently, you're not just buying the boat anymore - you're buying its story. Who has been spending time with that boat and all its component parts & systems?

The harder it is to find out about any boat's ownership / maintenance history, the more doubtful I become.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. p.



#1-no
#2-no
#3-Keep looking
#4-For $200K+ you are being VERY sensible given the information and lack thereof about the boat you have provided. The broker wants to make a sale. PERIOD!



Sounds like your wife has become emotionally attached already. VERY dangerous!



We've been looking for a replacement Florida boat for almost a year now and are willing to wait a LONG time for the right one. Looked for 4 years for our Canadian boat and she's sitting in the slip behind the house as I type.

Edit: Curious. What "valuable systems" have been added to the boat and why was the engine rebuilt? Well maintained Lehmans should run 15,000+ hrs.

 

[Comodave]

Have the best surveyor you can find. Look the boat over yourself and poke into everywhere. Tap out the decks for soft spots. I have a feeling that most boat owners do not keep really good maintenance records. Then you have to decide if you want to roll the dice or not. Accept that there will be issues, it is an older boat. Are you good with DIY? No oil sample can tell you the state of the rebuild, just what is in the oil. And unless there is a history of oil samples a single sample may not tell you much at all. Sounds like all doom and gloom, no just go in with your eyes wide open and good luck.

 

[DavidM]

I think maintenance records are way over rated. Have a good hull survey done and a separate engine survey. The latter is where the big bucks are at if not discovered. A good engine surveyor won't be able to tell you how long it will run, just if it is in good or bad condition for its age and what might need doing to bring it up to snuff.

David

 

[mvweebles]

A good survey, engine survey, and oil analysis will have to do because there are no gautantees. But don't forget the sea trial - in many parts of the country, surveyor does not accompany on the sea trial and their ability to verify proper operation is therefore limited. Specifically, electronics. If the autopilot doesn't interface properly, AIS doesn't pull-up properly, boat icon on radar/MFD is cocked, etc. If there are any wifi networks aboard such as wireless cameras, etc. These can be surprising expensive to repair. Fuel tanks are almost always hidden and a crap shoot. Upholstery and canvas is surprisingly expensive to replace. Cathodic issues are not easily discovered until it's too late. Any sign of soft wood should be taken seriously to assure its not the tip of an iceberg. Even simple stuff like switches that don't do anything can drive you nuts trying to figure out over time.

Sounds like your wife wants to be a part of this process which is fantastic. You should both be with the surveyor when s/he does the inspection - you will learn a lot and not everything will make it into the final report. Surveyors use euphemisms to denote condition: "fair condition" means its close to end of life.

The above said, the majority of boat purchases go as expected. Sure, there will ne surprises in your first-year of ownership, but even older simple Taiwan trawlers are a floating city with tons of systems. With a diligent team of surveyor, mechanic, maybe an experienced captain for the sea trial, you can minimize your risk, though not to zero.

Peter

 

[David Griffiths]

IMHO these 8 posts cover absolutely every detail of pre purchase processes, succinctly and comprehensively.
Pull the major points out of these posts, write them down in a list, then get on the boat and work your way through the points.
Look (closely) Listen Feel (poke/tap) Smell the boat. You will still get the odd surprise but isn't that applicable to any part of life where you interact with the built-up world??

 

[Comodave]

Before I get too far along in buying a boat I always tap out the decks and stringers as much as possible. If they have rotten and or soft spots you may or may not even want to do a survey. Depends on how much you want the boat. If there are soft spots they can be fixed with time and money if you really want the boat. But it helps you go in with your eyes wide open. I carry a small phenolic hammer to do the tapping with.

 

[mvweebles]

Attached is a sea trial checklist I put together about 20 years ago when I was consulting to buyers. My recommendation for sea trial is the seller should provide a helmsman - frankly, I don't want to touch the boat but rather have someone follow my instructions. The boat should be run ar WOT for at least 5 minutes. To me, the scariest moment of a sea trial, which is why I don't want to be at the helm and liable.

If I recall, missing on this list is the anchor. You really should run-out the anchor rode to make sure it hasn't rusted into a ball or something.

Take a lot of pictures - including open cabinets and storage spaces - and ask the seller to confirm anything that does not convey. A lot of bad blood post-sale due to disagreement between what is "personal belongings"

Quite a bit has changed in electronics since I assembled this, and you need to make are all features are demonstrated. That alone could take a while.

I am not a fan of using the sea trial as a ride to the yard for survey haul. I also recommend only the buyer (you and your wife) and your experts be aboard. No passengers/friends out for a ride.

Good luck

Peter View attachment SeaSkills_Sea_Trial_Template_1[1].0.pdf

 

[mvweebles]

Sorry. For some reason the PDF won't attach from my phone. I'll be at my PC later and will attach then.

EDIT here is a decent thread with my attachment and another on the engine.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/haulout-survey-checklist-47424.html

EDIT 2 a surveyor "Boatpoker" out of Ontario Canada is pretty active on CruisersForum. His website has quite a bit of information on what to look for, sample surveys, etc.

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/index.htm

 

[Comodave]

I was able to open both of the links.

 

[proudsailor]

You all have no idea how much I appreciate TF Wisdom, thanks! Appreciate all the view points for consideration. Have been aboard her twice and it took the second time to really see issues I totally missed the 1st day. Peter- links and check list are things I wouldn't have thought of but assumed (perhaps wrongly) that a surveyor would do/provide- so THANKS! Keep the suggestions/comments coming.....

 

[mvweebles]

You all have no idea how much I appreciate TF Wisdom, thanks! Appreciate all the view points for consideration. Have been aboard her twice and it took the second time to really see issues I totally missed the 1st day. Peter- links and check list are things I wouldn't have thought of but assumed (perhaps wrongly) that a surveyor would do/provide- so THANKS! Keep the suggestions/comments coming.....

There should be a lot of overlap with a survey and the checklists. On the west coast, surveyors rarely accompany boat on sea trial, though perhaps a short run to the yard for haul and they do their inside work along the way. Often, their inspection is visual. Excessive corrosion, leaks, ABYC compliance, etc. They are not frequently in a position to test operability or interoperability of systems which is why I would spend plenty of time with electronics if they are present. Do not assume you'll figure it out later. It is the sellers responsibility to demonstrate - sea trial is the event.

Also, sea trial is a good time to load-up the generator (if installed). Turn on heaters, AC, water heater, whatever it takes to get the generator to about 70%-80% of rated capacity and let her run for the entire sea trial. Good time to check gauges too.

Good luck. You are correct about the Bigger Brain at TF. They've answered a lot of questions for me too. Always nice to give back. Very much a "pay it forward" crowd

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

I carry a small phenolic hammer to do the tapping with.

Saw the damage a surveyor did to a 42 ft cat with one of those
Tapped all over the hull looking for delamination

Hull was 20mm divinicell with 5oz Kevlar and 12 Oz double bias
Looked like a golf ball after he'd been at it.

Of course wouldn't bother most boats.

 

[Bacchus]

Above good info / advice. I would only reinforce to not take much / anything a broker tells you with any serious consideration.
Brokers can tell you anything but I'd ask him/her to any comments in writing and be willing to stand behind them (as in warranty performance,) or they aren't worth the paper they aren't written on.

 

[Delta Riverat]

My surveyor went on the sea trial and was there for the haul out too. The day before he spent the whole day going through the inside of the boat. I knew exactly what I was buying and everything that needed attention. The boat was sold 2 years prior by the same broker and he showed me the previous survey. Everything was transparent, no wool was pulled.

My broker did a wonderful job of putting it all together. He had contacts for good marine techs and a captain for our training sessions. When I sell this boat, I'll look him up first.

 

[SoWhat]

4. This being our first significant ($200k+) boat purchase, am I being overly concerned without knowing maintenance history? My wife is all in (and pushing) but I'm high maintenance and need lots of reassurance!

You may sleep a lot better with a newer boat. Trawlers are classics but old and will need a lot of maintenance no matter what your survey says.

I am the second owner of my 35 year old trawler. Previous owner kept no records and did little to no maintenance. It's a project boat and was priced accordingly.

I have replaced all interior upholstery, flybridge upholstery, rebuilt both transmissions, installed 2 waterlift exhaust systems including new exhaust elbows, all new oil coolers and heat exchangers for both engines, new raw pumps, new raw water filters, 1 starter, Installed new black water plumbing, new hot water tank and fresh water pump, new windlass, remote control, chain and anchor, installed new propane system, all new electronics including VHF, AIS, Radar, autopilot, MFD's, with a LOT of wiring,

The bottom was blistered so I stripped it and put on 2 barrier coats. Overall exterior paint is in poor condition. I have painted exterior flybridge so far. Teak was in really poor condition. I have 3 coats on ladder, rear door, and anchor pulpit. Some of the cap rail is done. I want 10 coats on all teak. Built a new pilot house door. The list is endless.

Windows are cracked and window frames have some rot. Trying to find people to do these projects is impossible.

In other words, if you like projects, then a 35 year old boat is perfect.
If you like boating then a 15 year old boat is perfect.

 

[mvweebles]

My surveyor went on the sea trial and was there for the haul out too. The day before he spent the whole day going through the inside of the boat. I knew exactly what I was buying and everything that needed attention. The boat was sold 2 years prior by the same broker and he showed me the previous survey. Everything was transparent, no wool was pulled.

My broker did a wonderful job of putting it all together. He had contacts for good marine techs and a captain for our training sessions. When I sell this boat, I'll look him up first.

I think there are a lot more brokers like this than a regular forum reader would think. If you think about it, if you plan on making a career in yacht sales, you understand that the sales cycle is often well over a year, and it's not unusual for a good broker to sell the same boat a few times over. You don't establish tenure by being shady. Within reason, an experienced broker night be one of your best sources of local information.

Peter

 

[O C Diver]

For that kind of money, I would higher a surveyor with a moisture scanner. It will find a lot more moisture spots than tapping. A good surveyor with a scan tool can cover the entire boat where as tapping is time limited. It also shows areas with modest moisture like below windows and deck fill pipes.

I might also consider a marine electrician. With a 35 year old boat, you might be looking at some serious wiring considerations.

Ted

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mv. Agreed. That's ONE advantage of using a "buyers broker". A good one can spot or know of the shysters AND may be party to insider information.

 

[BruceK]

Without knowing what it is, $200K+ seems a lot for a 35yo TT. I`d like all the planets aligning nicely for that.
Survey won`t catch everything. Things will surface post purchase.
One of the 2 buyers falling in love with it is not good. Got to stay objective, love blinds to the negatives.
That said, if it ticks a lot of boxes, going to Survey is worthwhile. You can exit, subject to contract, if survey does not bring the reassurance you seek. That may not be so easy if your wife`s commitment remains unquestioning.

 

[cardude01]

I’ll sell you my boat for that much cabbage. And it’s way newer, and cooler! [emoji51]

 

[Blissboat]

I’ll sell you my boat for that much cabbage. And it’s way newer, and cooler! [emoji51]

Having seen the Dude's boat, must agree that it's pretty cool, and it has a great story.

 

[proudsailor]

I’ll sell you my boat for that much cabbage. And it’s way newer, and cooler! [emoji51]

The irony is that I'm still a sailor at heart. A sound IP would be one of my top sailing choices! But the only way to get my wife on a boat is if it's a trawler. We like each other too much, otherwise I'd consider your offer......

 

[cardude01]

The irony is that I'm still a sailor at heart. A sound IP would be one of my top sailing choices! But the only way to get my wife on a boat is if it's a trawler. We like each other too much, otherwise I'd consider your offer......

My boat is pretty interesting, and I was only half kidding about selling it. We still enjoy the boat, but we aren’t using it as much as we did in the past. I mostly just work on it and dodge hurricanes it seems.

 

[slowgoesit]

Idle thoughts to add to the above. They are worth what you paid for them. Besides reinforcing the need for a good survey and fluid samples (don't forget the antifreeze), my experience with boat buying. Problem with a good survey is that you have to find a good surveyor . . . . enough on that.
$200k+ for a 35 year old trawler could be an okay deal, or a really BAD deal depending on the make/model, and condition. Probably never a GREAT deal. Personally, IMHO, unless the boat is absolutely Bristol Condition, $200K+ is a stretch.
On that. Since you already have a offer in, has it been accepted? Was it a standard offer conditional on inspection, survey, obtaining insurance, etc? If so, I would suggest you do the following:
Post on the forum here what make and model it is, or the actual boat, ask if someone in your area (where the boat it) who CURRENTLY HAS THAT TYPE BOAT, would be willing to give you a tour of THEIR boat, and if mechanically inclined agree to go with you prior to the formal survey and spend a day looking over the boat. Lots of items could be caught by an owner of a similar boat that might be overlooked by the formal surveyor. So to wrap it up:
Speak to a current owner, ask him/her what items specifically he/she would suggest looking at (I'll put a small list below for what I'd like to look at for a boat that age). If the broker won’t allow you to talk to the seller, find another boat.
Inspect THAT boat, adjust your list.
Inspect the boat you're considering purchasing, take your list, go off a list of items to check. Ask the seller to be there as well. Spend a day on board. Bring a lunch, sit down at the table and eat it, imagine being in that boat for extended lengths of time.
Get dirty, inspect the bilges. NOW is the time to turn on EVERY appliance, turn on EVERY switch, ask what they are for. If function is not apparent, of item appliance does not appear to work, note it on your list. Ask the seller what it does. Take pictures, go over your list, if you still feel positive about the purchase, make a list of the items you want the surveyor to look at that may concern you, and ask him to tell you whether they are concerns or not. If the surveyor has a problem with you giving him a list of items you'd like him to look at, find a new surveyor.

• At that age, the fuel tanks have already leaked and been replaced, or they will leak on your watch. Budget accordingly. ($50k+, unless you do much of the work yourself.)
• Pay particular attention to work around windows. Many of the Taiwanese trawlers fell short in these areas. If wood framed, they have already leaked and damaged the cabin sides. If replaced, make sure the surrounding damaged wood was repaired properly.
• Beware of insides of cabins that were originally natural wood having been painted. There’s a reason they aren’t still natural (stained, or varnished) and have been painted.
• If the deck is screwed down, it either leaks, or will leak under your watch. If they have not been removed, you will probably have to do it. And leaking deck screws are a major cause of black iron fuel tanks on that vintage Taiwanese trawlers leaking.
• Tap/inspect decks around ALL hardware penetrations. If deck is cored (it probably is) improper installation/maintenance of fasteners plays a major role in water intrusion causing damage.
• Electrical: Look for switches that do nothing. Look for “legacy items”, that no longer work. This will require hours and hours of chasing down wires, removing if not needed, and figuring out if they are in good shape if still in use.
• Look at age of battery banks. If FLA (flooded lead acid) remove caps and check fluid levels. If age is known, and less than 3 years old, load test them. If older than three years, or if acid level was below plates on ANY cells, figure in battery replacement. Make sure you don’t just check the easy to access cells. Start with the hardest to reach, because those are the ones that the PO most likely neglected.
• Ask about items included with boat. If not bolted down or SPECIFICALLY LISTED as going with boat, assume the seller will be removing. If in question, ask for confirmation IN WRITING. Common items include: VHF handhelds, Dingy and outboard, Kayaks, extra refrigerator/freezer, life raft, EPIRB, PLB’s, life jackets, extra anchor(s), ground tackle, fenders, boat hooks and mooring lines. Some small stuff listed, but it all adds up! Ask for a specific list of items NOT conveying with the purchase that are currently present on the boat. If sellers have purchased, or intend to purchase another boat, they may be planning on moving many of the above items to their new boat.
• Oh, and if the dingy and outboard convey with the sale, make sure that the VIN of the dingy and SN of the outboard are listed on the purchase agreement and that title will convey at time of conveyance of the boat title/documentation. (get a separate bill of sale for the dingy ALONE, so you will not pay sales tax twice (once on the sale of the big boat with the dingy included, and again when you transfer title of the dingy).

Hope this helps!

 

[SeaDogAK]

You may sleep a lot better with a newer boat. Trawlers are classics but old and will need a lot of maintenance no matter what your survey says.

I am the second owner of my 35 year old trawler. Previous owner kept no records and did little to no maintenance. It's a project boat and was priced accordingly.

I have replaced all interior upholstery, flybridge upholstery, rebuilt both transmissions, installed 2 waterlift exhaust systems including new exhaust elbows, all new oil coolers and heat exchangers for both engines, new raw pumps, new raw water filters, 1 starter, Installed new black water plumbing, new hot water tank and fresh water pump, new windlass, remote control, chain and anchor, installed new propane system, all new electronics including VHF, AIS, Radar, autopilot, MFD's, with a LOT of wiring,

The bottom was blistered so I stripped it and put on 2 barrier coats. Overall exterior paint is in poor condition. I have painted exterior flybridge so far. Teak was in really poor condition. I have 3 coats on ladder, rear door, and anchor pulpit. Some of the cap rail is done. I want 10 coats on all teak. Built a new pilot house door. The list is endless.

Windows are cracked and window frames have some rot. Trying to find people to do these projects is impossible.

In other words, if you like projects, then a 35 year old boat is perfect.
If you like boating then a 15 year old boat is perfect.

Not everyone can afford a 15 year old boat.

 

[backinblue]

I have to agree with many others here. Without knowing anything about the size or make of the boat in question, but with a $200K+ budget, that covers a good portion of the used boat market. For that budget there should be a lot of boats that may fit what you need that are newer and in less questionable condition. Maybe it would help if you post the listing so that you could get more detailed feedback rather than just general opinions. It's hard to say much because we don't know if you are looking at a 40 footer or a 70 footer. But regardless it's still a fairly old boat with a lot of hours. 7000 hours may not be a deal breaker, but if I was going to consider something like that, lack of maintenance records would probably be a non-starter for me. Is there a good reason, other than the wife's opinion, that makes this an urgent purchase?