Ionic Lithium Start Battery - 3000 ca - Any good?

[jhall767]

Ionic Lithium 12V Group 31 | 3000 CA | LiFePO4 Heavy Duty Diesel Starter Battery​

Anybody have any experience with these or with Ionic. I need to replace my 24V start battery bank. Cat 3196 eninges. It also serves my bow thruster. It is 2 x 8D Lead acid. These are group 31 but more CCA and 100 AH which is plenty as all they need to do is start the engines or run the bow thruster for 10 seconds.

I'm seeing them for $899 which seems reasonable compared to AGM. Just don't know anything about them.

 

[SteveK]

This one?
I have bookmarked for future consideration awaiting your reports.

 

[jhall767]

That's the one. The specs say it should work. Not sure about what else I might need to do, say with the alternators.

 

[ranger58sb]

Note that link says 3000 CA in one place, 3000 Cranking Amps (CA) in another, and 1800 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) in another.

In case that might matter to a Cat 3196 or a thruster.

-Chris

 

[jhall767]

1800 CCA is more than most lead acid 8D batteries. What they don't spec is MCA but I have seen MCA calculated as CCA x 1.25 which would be about 2200. Again way more than Lead acid or AGM.

So spec wise they're fine. Still haven't heard from anyone who has actually purchased an Iconic battery though.

 

[tiltrider1]

My classic car sources all use the Antigravity LFP start battery. They report excellent results. I don’t see why the Iconic wouldn’t fair as well.

 

[Dahmnit]

Ionic Lithium 12V Group 31 | 3000 CA | LiFePO4 Heavy Duty Diesel Starter Battery​

Anybody have any experience with these or with Ionic. I need to replace my 24V start battery bank. Cat 3196 eninges. It also serves my bow thruster. It is 2 x 8D Lead acid. These are group 31 but more CCA and 100 AH which is plenty as all they need to do is start the engines or run the bow thruster for 10 seconds.

I'm seeing them for $899 which seems reasonable compared to AGM. Just don't know anything about them.

The big issue is charging. Two things can go wrong:
1. The BMS will manage incoming current for charging, but your alternator is set up for lead acid. The charging profile will not be best for Lithium chemistry, which wants a longer absorb and does not “float.”
2. That “float” issue becomes a problem when the BMS cuts off the charge current when the battery is full, and your alternator is pumping out current with no place for it to go. This can cause alternator death, usually very pricey on a marine alternator.
Balmar, and others, make special circuitry to eliminate this problem and adjust the charge cycle for lithium. However, that solution may cost almost as much as your lithium battery. There may be other less expensive solutions.
If your alternator is still hooked up to a lead acid battery as well as the lithium, it will still have somewhere to dump the current. That won’t solve the BMS charging algorithm, but it will protect the alternator.

 

[Dahmnit]

Having said all that, I have my alternator charging my 400ah 12v house lithium, with no problems because I’m running an inverter supplying a minimum of 3 amps 120 at all times. This equates to a 12v 30 amp draw on the house battery, so it always needs a charge.
If you have lithium and acid, they must be isolated electrically from each other.

 

[MichaelD]

A good conversion is stick to AGM LA for start. from that charged by alternator, install a DC/DC charger that outputs to a LFP profile. That takes care of it while running, and put in an inverter charger to charge it when at the dock or on generator. Keeps the number/$ of new parts down.

 

[tiltrider1]

I am speaking from my experience using Antigravity LFP batteries in collectable cars. I believe this experience is transferable to a boat as long as the set up is a Start bank and not a house bank.

I don't see an over charging issue. Internally regulated alternators do not put out the high voltage that would upset AGM, FLA, or LFP batteries. While regulators can be designed for higher voltages and faster recharging the standard alternator does not. Its really hard to charge a battery to 100% with just a standard alternator. I don't believe a standard alternator putting out the normal 13.8v is ever going to cause a BMS to shut down for overcharging.

In the world of cars we concern our selves more with CCA than with Ah. In other words the battery capacity is more in the area of 50-100 amp hours unlike House banks that can easily be in the thousands of Ah. This means the alternator will run at 100% for a much shorter time. On my boat I was concerned that a low house bank would work my alternator to death. In a start battery with a single 100ah or dual 50ah arrangement I'm not very worried about killing an alternator even with a low battery. In a start application a low battery would not be the norm.

Change is a difficult thing, even I have questions about LFP as a start option. For now it just works best for me to have LFP for house and AGM for start and thrusters. My crane still uses an FLA battery but I will definitely replace it with LFP when it fails.

The Antigravity LFP is a very expensive start battery. In most cases it just is not needed in my car collection. I can easy keep all my cars on little 2 amp battery maintainers. However, there is one car that lives in a barn with no power. That car has an analog clock. My option is to either disconnect the battery every time our switch to an LFP that can handle the clock load for 6 months and still have enough power to start the car.

 

[ronobrien]

Ionic Lithium 12V Group 31 | 3000 CA | LiFePO4 Heavy Duty Diesel Starter Battery​

Anybody have any experience with these or with Ionic. I need to replace my 24V start battery bank. Cat 3196 eninges. It also serves my bow thruster. It is 2 x 8D Lead acid. These are group 31 but more CCA and 100 AH which is plenty as all they need to do is start the engines or run the bow thruster for 10 seconds.

I'm seeing them for $899 which seems reasonable compared to AGM. Just don't know anything about them.

One thing I have heard is that if you don't have any FLA batteries in the system, if the Lithium BMS were to trip off while the engine was running, you could damage the alternator electronics. Same reason they tell you not to turn the battery switch off while the engine is running.

 

[tiltrider1]

One thing I have heard is that if you don't have any FLA batteries in the system, if the Lithium BMS were to trip off while the engine was running, you could damage the alternator electronics. Same reason they tell you not to turn the battery switch off while the engine is running.

Two things, that "if" for the BMS turning off has very low probability. It is also likely that other DC loads would prevent the alternator being damaged. Secondly, AGM or FLA could be used as a source for the alternator.

When I routed my alternators to my AGM start bank it was more of a concern for over working the alternators and much less a concern for BMS shut down. In fact, I ran my alternators directly to the house bank for 9 months before I got around to finishing my system. In my defense I was only traveling dock to dock for that 9 months so the alternators had little to do. Then before I started out on an extensive anchor out trip I rewired the alternators to the start bank so they wouldn't kill themselves trying to charge up a 1250ah bank.

 

[ronobrien]

Two things, that "if" for the BMS turning off has very low probability. It is also likely that other DC loads would prevent the alternator being damaged. Secondly, AGM or FLA could be used as a source for the alternator.

When I routed my alternators to my AGM start bank it was more of a concern for over working the alternators and much less a concern for BMS shut down. In fact, I ran my alternators directly to the house bank for 9 months before I got around to finishing my system. In my defense I was only traveling dock to dock for that 9 months so the alternators had little to do. Then before I started out on an extensive anchor out trip I rewired the alternators to the start bank so they wouldn't kill themselves trying to charge up a 1250ah bank.

I agree that the "if" on the BMS is low, just something to consider. Personally I would rather have a fail safe in a part of the system that does not see a long slow draw down such as in the house bank does. You also mentioned that FLA or AGM could be used as the source for the alternator. That was my actual point. I was also considering that the house would be charged through DC/DC charger, which puts the FLA/AGM first in line from the alternators. The DC/DC would also limit the charge rate so as to not overload the alternators. This is all predicated on things that I have read, so I am just putting out some possible cautionary tales to anyone considering all Lithium batts on board. On this note I am attending a Nigel Calder seminar on this Oct 28-29. Look forward to more knowledge there.

 

[DDW]

You might consider an LTO battery (or two) like this. LTO is apparently very tolerant of voltage, so overcharging and undercharging don't really happen in normal use.

 

[Diep]

One thing I have heard is that if you don't have any FLA batteries in the system, if the Lithium BMS were to trip off while the engine was running, you could damage the alternator electronics. Same reason they tell you not to turn the battery switch off while the engine is running.

This is true. But having a battery switch also results in a theoretical disconnect scenario and we still install them and hope the warning sign works.

A question would be why would the lithium BMS trip off?
If the charge voltage is controlled appropriately by the alternator I don't think it should ever be an issue. My experience from charging some new batteries is that it only happens if the cells are quite out of balance. If it does happen it is when the charge current has dropped very low.
Unless an alt is putting out voltage that is way too high I don't see the BMS tripping under an ordinary circumstance and if it does the current will be very low. I don't think an alternator will self destruct if it gets disconnected while putting out 2 amps.

Much more concerned about frying the alt trying to keep up with the charge absorption capability of a low battery.

 

[ronobrien]

This is true. But having a battery switch also results in a theoretical disconnect scenario and we still install them and hope the warning sign works.

A question would be why would the lithium BMS trip off?
If the charge voltage is controlled appropriately by the alternator I don't think it should ever be an issue. My experience from charging some new batteries is that it only happens if the cells are quite out of balance. If it does happen it is when the charge current has dropped very low.
Unless an alt is putting out voltage that is way too high I don't see the BMS tripping under an ordinary circumstance and if it does the current will be very low. I don't think an alternator will self destruct if it gets disconnected while putting out 2 amps.

Much more concerned about frying the alt trying to keep up with the charge absorption capability of a low battery.

I admittedly don't have enough practical experience or knowledge on LiIo technology. I am truly just reiterating what I have read and/or heard, trying to sort what is real and what isn't. Alternators themselves don't fry from a sudden loss of a sink for their output, it is the internal electronics that are damaged. The repair is less expensive than a complete alternator replacement, but it does leave you without charging capacity in the interim. Again, I am more trying to share what I have heard and try to gain knowledge than I am trying to educate anyone else on LiIo systems. Thank you for your input.

 

[Diep]

On this note I am attending a Nigel Calder seminar on this Oct 28-29. Look forward to more knowledge there.

I will be interested in what Nigel Calder thinks these days. It has been about 5 years since I heard him talk about batteries and solar etc. and a lot has changed since then.

 

[ronobrien]

I will be interested in what Nigel Calder thinks these days. It has been about 5 years since I heard him talk about batteries and solar etc. and a lot has changed since then.

Same here. I have quite a bit of electrical experience with marine, land based and fixed equipment, but this new technology changes things considerably and quickly.

 

[Frosty]

One thing I have heard is that if you don't have any FLA batteries in the system, if the Lithium BMS were to trip off while the engine was running, you could damage the alternator electronics. Same reason they tell you not to turn the battery switch off while the engine is running.

Another way is that some BMS's have a way you can install a small signal wire which sends out a signal to a charging device to shut it down before the BMS disconnects the LFP*. My LFP have this, for example. As it happens I also have an FLA start battery -- an AGM -- so that is always there too.

*Presumably some inboard engine alternators have some sort of excite (field?) wire or etc. that can accept this signal and turn things off gracefully -- I have not yet installed LFP with an inboard engine though and have forgotten the details of their alternators.

 

[ronobrien]

Another way is that some BMS's have a way you can install a small signal wire which sends out a signal to a charging device to shut it down before the BMS disconnects the LFP*. My LFP have this, for example. As it happens I also have an FLA start battery -- an AGM -- so that is always there too.

*Presumably some inboard engine alternators have some sort of excite (field?) wire or etc. that can accept this signal and turn things off gracefully -- I have not yet installed LFP with an inboard engine though and have forgotten the details of their alternators.

Thank you. These are all great Q's to ask at the Nigel Calder conference next week.

 

[mvweebles]

I am speaking from my experience using Antigravity LFP batteries in collectable cars. I believe this experience is transferable to a boat as long as the set up is a Start bank and not a house bank.

I don't see an over charging issue. Internally regulated alternators do not put out the high voltage that would upset AGM, FLA, or LFP batteries. While regulators can be designed for higher voltages and faster recharging the standard alternator does not. Its really hard to charge a battery to 100% with just a standard alternator. I don't believe a standard alternator putting out the normal 13.8v is ever going to cause a BMS to shut down for overcharging.

In the world of cars we concern our selves more with CCA than with Ah. In other words the battery capacity is more in the area of 50-100 amp hours unlike House banks that can easily be in the thousands of Ah. This means the alternator will run at 100% for a much shorter time. On my boat I was concerned that a low house bank would work my alternator to death. In a start battery with a single 100ah or dual 50ah arrangement I'm not very worried about killing an alternator even with a low battery. In a start application a low battery would not be the norm.

Change is a difficult thing, even I have questions about LFP as a start option. For now it just works best for me to have LFP for house and AGM for start and thrusters. My crane still uses an FLA battery but I will definitely replace it with LFP when it fails.

The Antigravity LFP is a very expensive start battery. In most cases it just is not needed in my car collection. I can easy keep all my cars on little 2 amp battery maintainers. However, there is one car that lives in a barn with no power. That car has an analog clock. My option is to either disconnect the battery every time our switch to an LFP that can handle the clock load for 6 months and still have enough power to start the car.

@tiltrider1 - thanks so much for posting experience with Antigravity. I have referenced them as LFP start batteries for several years and still await real world experience. I know they are very popular with race motorcycles due to ultra low weight.

I think a change in perception is needed. As you mention, LFP is capable of expelling very high current with very low reserves - 40AH would give several minutes of cranking. This is opposite convention wisdom for the past 125+ years of flooded batteries where it took enormous reserves to enable high amperage current flow.

I look forward to someday replacing my thruster and windlass batteries with something akin to an Antigravity 60-amp battery the size of a bible.

Peter