Interesting video on new vs old diesel engine durability

[READY]

Longer than it needed to be and video content is marginable yet a decent overview of why engines like Lehmans and Perkins are so much more durable. Of course no emphasis on some of the benefits of new engines such as HP/pound or fuel efficiency. They blame it on the emissions requirements but I suspect consumer demands/expectations would have forced the manufacturers to make many of the same changes. At least to my knowledge recreational boats are not using DEF like most diesel pickups.

I have both old and new engines in different boats. I am confident that I could probably fix almost anything on the Lehman in remote places with spares on board.

My Greenline has a marinized VW and I probably would be able to quickly use the scan to find the problem but unlikely to resolve it without help. At least a local automotive VW mechanic is probably available! And it has an electric motor so perhaps could make it 20+ miles before I have to stop for a day or two to solar charge.

My experience with new high tech engines, both gas and diesel has been that most failures are with a sensor which sadly can be buried deep and definitely not one of the spares you would carry. Or it is the ECM which is usually VERY expensive.

Overall I would prefer to burn more fuel and be able to DYI. Plus the benefit of generally better reliability (maybe?).

 

[whistlerxc]

I wonder how many of the large amount of old timers on this board will agree with me that most 'problems and failures' occurring on marine engines- both old and new- are usually not the engine itself, but the marination parts of the system. Or filter problems that were easily preventable. Okay, maybe starter failure could be added, but even then, that problem can usually be 'repaired' by having a spare starter on board.
Thus perhaps one should not be prejudiced one way or another when it comes to considering old or new marine engines.

 

[CharlieO.]

I wonder how many of the large amount of old timers on this board will agree with me that most 'problems and failures' occurring on marine engines- both old and new- are usually not the engine itself, but the marination parts of the system. Or filter problems that were easily preventable. Okay, maybe starter failure could be added, but even then, that problem can usually be 'repaired' by having a spare starter on board.
Thus perhaps one should not be prejudiced one way or another when it comes to considering old or new marine engines.

I think one of the biggest differences is the amount of sensors and CPU's on newer engines that could need advanced diagnostic equipment (scanners) to troubleshoot and repair.

 

[sunchaser]

Yup, hard to beat a ‘57 Chevy especially a convertible with cheerleaders sitting on the parade boot. That said, I’m with Whistler, it’s the hang ons (and the owner’s diligence) that determine a marine diesel’s fate - old or new.

But all bets are off IMHO if the ER is less than pristine regarding overall vessel durability beyond the era of the diesel.

 

[Gdavid]

I wonder how many of the large amount of old timers on this board will agree with me that most 'problems and failures' occurring on marine engines- both old and new- are usually not the engine itself, but the marination parts of the system. Or filter problems that were easily preventable. Okay, maybe starter failure could be added, but even then, that problem can usually be 'repaired' by having a spare starter on board.
Thus perhaps one should not be prejudiced one way or another when it comes to considering old or new marine engines.

The fuel injection systems are not unique to the marine engines. The sensors, ecu, fuel quality requirements and lifespan of the injectors are all shared between marine, industrial and over the road diesels. One particular challenge on boats, is maintaining fuel quality with a lower turnover rate. A truck (3/4 ton or larger) is generally used frequently and has smaller tank capacity compared to a boat, particularly a trawler. A truck is getting fresh fuel every week, most recreational trawlers are only turning over their tankage every year (full time cruisers really aren't that common). Fuel sitting in a humid environment is a challenge to keep clean. That isn't necessarily a fault of the new diesels, but a level of sensitivity the older injection systems just didn't have. We also tend to fuel at marinas that are far more likely to have poor fuel storage compared to truck stops.

That video seems to be largely AI created, and not 100% accurate but there are a lot of good points. When an ECU fails on a common rail engine, there just isn't much you can do and you can't simply carry a spare due to the difficulty in obtaining and configuring them.

 

[twistedtree]

I prefer my horse. All I have to do is feed and water it. No special skills or tools needed. These new horseless carriages are nothing but trouble. Constantly breaking, nobody knows how to fix them, manufacturer's only available via telegraph. What's the world coming too. And young people are sooo lazy. When I was their age I was holding down three jobs......

 

[twistedtree]

That video seems to be largely AI created, and not 100% accurate but there are a lot of good points. When an ECU fails on a common rail engine, there just isn't much you can do and you can't simply carry a spare due to the difficulty in obtaining and configuring them.

Can't the same thing be said about a mechanical injection pump? Would you know how to re-time it, when doing a replacement?

 

[Gdavid]

Can't the same thing be said about a mechanical injection pump? Would you know how to re-time it, when doing a replacement?

Yes actually, I had my entire injection system off last spring and re-installed it without any problem at all, the injection pump is indexed such that it can only be inserted in only one orientation, and the amount of adjustment is only about 25%. They are much less complex than what is commonly thought.

 

[slowgoesit]

Overall I would prefer to burn more fuel and be able to DYI. Plus the benefit of generally better reliability (maybe?).

Don't necessarily assume that a "modern" engine will burn less fuel!
Our boat, average weight between 80k and 85k averaged 2.4 gph, 6.8kts, 2.7nmpg over 6,440 nm trip, including occasional genny use (no way of tallying fuel use for that).

Purely mechanical engine,
lots of spare parts on board,
didn't need any of them,
no issues, no drama with the drive train whatsoever.

Basic engine design is over 100 years old.
This engine series began production in 1958, 66 years ago
Our specific engine was built in 1978.
First required maintenance per the Repair and Operation manual (aside from fluid/filter changes, and valve lash adjustment) is at 30,000 hours when where it is recommended the heads and cylinders be removed, all cooling system O-rings be replaced, and engine re-assembled . . . . No other parts replacement recommended . . . . .

I challenge anyone to find a "modern" engine with that longevity, or with that fuel burn at that weight. Some will do better at fuel "economy", notably some of the John Deere's, but many will not do as well.

 

[Gdavid]

I would say that our trawlers and cruising sailboats in particular are in a different use case than faster boats. The weight savings and power density in a fast cruiser, sportfish, etc. can be a huge difference in performance, where it really doesn't benefit displacement or semi displacement boat much at all.

 

[sunchaser]

Gdavid
Issues faced by many marine engine ECUs, not common on our Super Duty, include DIY cobbled together charging systems and high moisture 24/7. I’ve seen a few owner installed high output alternators added to engines with a combination of house bank, DC to DC chargers and mixed battery types. No wonder some marine ECUs bite the dust.

The goal seems to be charging a house bank without enough thought given to ECU sanctity. On vehicles, warranty issues compel the owner and manufacturer to stick with OEM protocols.

We’ve spent over half a century cruising in the PNW, never having faced old or bad fuel problems. High turnover fuel stops abound. If lucky enough, a thousand miles of cruising range helps one make good fuel stop choices. Bad fuel in Mexico, yes. Mississippi and adjoining rivers yes. Great Lakes, yes.

Some years ago we were looking at pictures and maintenance notes from a late model Nordhavn that had been slipped in Ensenada for tax avoidance. The entire fuel system had been corrupted with low turnover and watered down Mexican fuel. The Racors were green. Ouch!

 

[slowgoesit]

Tom, our engine has shut down twice. Once because I had transferred all the fuel out of the selected tank, and that tank was now totally filled with air . . . .

The second time was leaving the dock and forgetting to open the fuel valves . . . .

Both self inflicted, both in early days, but very embarrassing.

Stale fuel and low turnover has never been a problem for us! Plus we always add Biobor when refueling.

P.S. I still marvel over your engine room!

 

[rslifkin]

Can't the same thing be said about a mechanical injection pump? Would you know how to re-time it, when doing a replacement?

Agreed. It doesn't necessarily matter what the equipment is, it matters if you can get the information, tools, and parts needed to service it.

 

[sunchaser]

Scott
Your fuel sipping engine has the first design stage from WWII as best I recall. Kinda like the Jimmy 671 that could take a bullet or two when making a beach landing.

Happy NewYear to you, Laura and the mouser.

 

[slowgoesit]

Scott
Your fuel sipping engine has the first design stage from WWII as best I recall. Kinda like the Jimmy 671 that could take a bullet or two when making a beach landing.

Happy NewYear to you, Laura and the mouser.

Yup, the LX series began in the '30's, then transitioned to the LXB's in 1958. Ours is the 8LXB. Frankly, our boat would have probably done just fine with the 6LXB, but we have what we have.

 

[twistedtree]

I finally watched the video, or as much of it as I could stand. What utter BS. Nothing but useless click bait. Using automotive emissions standards to trash marine engines that aren’t subject to those requirements. Equating the EPA design life (and what does that actually mean) with the expected engine life, etc etc etc. Modern continuous duty engines last just as long as older engines.

 

[DDW]

I had a hard time getting through it all too. Even at 2x playback. If there is a difference, it is that today, very light duty diesels can be purchased, that last as long as you'd expect of a light duty diesel. No market for them 40 years ago.

Ability to diagnose and repair would be better than old mechanical diesels, except for the proprietary software needed. The only thing a regret is that the software is not free or inexpensively available.

Now back to the boat to see if I can find where to put the DEF in my tier 3 engine, cause the video said I needed to....

 

[sjnssn]

Longer than it needed to be and video content is marginable yet a decent overview of why engines like Lehmans and Perkins are so much more durable. Of course no emphasis on some of the benefits of new engines such as HP/pound or fuel efficiency. They blame it on the emissions requirements but I suspect consumer demands/expectations would have forced the manufacturers to make many of the same changes. At least to my knowledge recreational boats are not using DEF like most diesel pickups.

I have both old and new engines in different boats. I am confident that I could probably fix almost anything on the Lehman in remote places with spares on board.

My Greenline has a marinized VW and I probably would be able to quickly use the scan to find the problem but unlikely to resolve it without help. At least a local automotive VW mechanic is probably available! And it has an electric motor so perhaps could make it 20+ miles before I have to stop for a day or two to solar charge.

My experience with new high tech engines, both gas and diesel has been that most failures are with a sensor which sadly can be buried deep and definitely not one of the spares you would carry. Or it is the ECM which is usually VERY expensive.

Overall I would prefer to burn more fuel and be able to DYI. Plus the benefit of generally better reliability (maybe?).

What ever happened to the rule:" If you cann't fix it or do without it it doesn't belong on the boat."

 

[JackConnick]

I love my 31 year old Cummins 5.9BT 210s. Yes they have a (shudder) turbo, and have 6600 hours on them, but are fairly easy to work on and have almost no electronics, ok two relays... and I can get many parts at any NAPA store... They can drive the boat comfortably at 9-9.5 knots and WOT at 14.5.

 

[motion30]

I'm thinking that's why there is still 40 and 50-year-old boats running down the Bay

 

[motion30]

I have to admit I'd like my diesel motors fat dumb and lazy