Insurance for boats with lithium house banks

[twistedtree]

I Have never had an insurance company tell me that I had to meet ABYC standards. I have had a surveyor tell me that I didn’t meet ABYC standards. Even though I pointed out that I meet the standard at date of manufacture, the surveyor wrote it up. At that point, my insurance company insisted I correct the issue.

This is a really good discussion to have with a prospective surveyor before hiring them. I think what's appropriate, and what is constant with ABYC is:

- Original build meets standards at time of build.
- Retrofits meet standards at time of retrofit.

If there are areas that will be judging against newer standards, that should be disclosed. Possible areas might be propane, shore power, electro-shock drowning risk.

 

[twistedtree]

exactly. This coversation gave me an idea. Next year when I need a survey I will remove the LFP and drop in a cheap 12v FLA. Then after the survey re&re. That will avoid a surveyor writing up he has LFP and avoid the hassle. There is no small print in the policy about it, BUT if the survey notes it a can of worms may develop.

I think intentionally hiding something like that puts you are great risk if you ever have a claim. And I wouldn't be advertising it in a public forum.

 

[Don L]

I feel the biggest problem getting boat insurance is surveyors. Far as lithium batteries the problem is the word "should"

 

[SteveK]

I feel the biggest problem getting boat insurance is surveyors. Far as lithium batteries the problem is the word "should"

I agree surveyors are part of the problem, but if their report does not reflect well on LFP it is because they also interpret the poorly written ABYC words. Then you have insurers that do not understand and the domino effect to insurers avoiding these batteries.
@twistedtree maybe you can post the E13 in effect to make sure we are seeing the current version and hint on the planned update we keep hearing about.

 

[sunchaser]

If you want to get second thoughts on buying a vessel with DIY LFPs talk to a “competent” surveyor about how to evaluate these one off systems. Then comes the surveyor’s LFP written weasel words that give insurers and finance companies great angst.

Gentlemen, this used vessel DIY LFP install issue is the proverbial elephant in the room.

 

[Don L]

If you want to get second thoughts on buying a vessel with DIY LFPs talk to a “competent” surveyor about how to

That didn't take long to make a circle. These "competent" surveyors are the ones that write "nice to" "maybes" etc into the survey the boat owner pays for and which now screw them over with the insurance companies.

Back to lithium; when I installed in my boat couple years ago I used the newer inexpensive packaged drop in batteries. All I changed on my boat were charging setpoints and my installation was 100% in compliance with ABYC. Yet when I wrote what I did I got lots of "you didn't ....." because people don't understand requirements from "should" bullshit.

Meanwhile back to the start of this thread that I have read many versions of in 3 forums; if the only thing your insurance company doesn't like about your boat is lithium batteries just to one of the remaining 95%+ ones

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

ABYC is a Standard writing body and does not “approve” anything, with the exception that they would likely approve the use of their own Standards.

Their Standards are written to let you know what is required for your particular installation to be in compliance and as a result, reasonably safe.

As Rod Collins has noted these standards are the minimum, you can do better.

So there is my issue ABYC. They "recommend" not approve standards. The "standards" can not be "required. Yet, the insurance companies however treat the standards as "LAW."

 

[tiltrider1]

It’s not the insurance company that treats ABYC as the law, it’s certain surveyors. The insurance company does treat the surveyor’s opinion as if it’s law.

My surveyor of 25 years retired. I had to find a new surveyor 3 years ago. My friends in the industry had a strong recommendation so I hired him. He was very thorough which was good. He pointed out areas he felt compelled to see improved, then gave me the weekend to make the improvements. While he was open to discuss the need for these changes I was unable to convince him they were unnecessary. He did offer inexpensive solutions that he would accept. In the end I got a clean opinion and my boat is a little safer at a Modest expense.

 

[twistedtree]

I agree surveyors are part of the problem, but if their report does not reflect well on LFP it is because they also interpret the poorly written ABYC words. Then you have insurers that do not understand and the domino effect to insurers avoiding these batteries.
@twistedtree maybe you can post the E13 in effect to make sure we are seeing the current version and hint on the planned update we keep hearing about.

Anyone who takes issue with any of the ABYC standards should submit comments when they are open for public review. The latest version of E-13 will likely go out for a second public review over the next month or two.

To get a copy, you should join ABYC or separately purchase a copy, or participate in the review, just like everyone else. And before you start belly aching about having to pay for it, keep in mind that virtually all standards have to be purchased, just like any book or magazine.

And getting back to the original question in the post about what insurance companies take issue with LFP, I think the answer remains "none", and only one (or maybe two) even ask about it and place stipulations on the installation. So when you say "... if their report does not reflect well on LFP it is because they also interpret the poorly written ABYC words. Then you have insurers that do not understand and the domino effect to insurers avoiding these batteries." Is a largely non-existant problem. And what part of E-13 is poorly worded? Let's fix it rather than complain about it.

 

[twistedtree]

If you want to get second thoughts on buying a vessel with DIY LFPs talk to a “competent” surveyor about how to evaluate these one off systems. Then comes the surveyor’s LFP written weasel words that give insurers and finance companies great angst.

Gentlemen, this used vessel DIY LFP install issue is the proverbial elephant in the room.

Is it? I ask with genuine interest to hear about specifics. What weasel wording in surveys and what angst from insurance companies? Stuff like this keeps being brought up within the ABYC committee, but nobody can ever cite a specific example that can be examined and possibly acted on. If insurance companies were so panicked about this, then why aren't they knocking down the doors at ABYC? They are so disinterested we can't even drag them into the room. So all the fear never seems to line up with reality, or at least not in any way we have been able to flush out.

What HAS been verified is that lithium-ion batteries in "toys" can be a definite fire hazard, and have caused great damage on some boats. But ABYC only covers stuff "installed" in a boat, and not incidental stuff that is brought aboard. We can't find a single case of a compliant installation of an "installed" battery that has caused a fire. Not one. CharlieJ keeps asking here and elsewhere and comes up empty handed every time. There have been non-compliant system that have had issues, but that's the whole point of having a standard.

 

[twistedtree]

It’s not the insurance company that treats ABYC as the law, it’s certain surveyors. The insurance company does treat the surveyor’s opinion as if it’s law.

I think this better characterizes the situation. But consider the alternative which is having no standard. Then it would be 100% up to the survey's opinion, with no objective baseline. I'll take a standard any day over the likely unqualified opinion of each surveyor.

I think the real issue is the misapplication of the various versions of the standards, and no understanding and agreement between surveyor and owner about what standards are being applied, and why.

 

[Symphony]

Regarding the OP question about insurance companies- I have found that blue water policy requests are concerned about any type of Lithium batteries, while simple coastal/inland waters policies don’t care or ask about battery type. They just want a good survey in general and battery- electrical - wiring is just one more system.

For blue water use the insurer will pay close attention to the survey report.

Let us not forget the sailing couple found deceased on Sable Island after battery fire. That was a DIY with used Li.

So unless you’re a sparky with equipment and knowledge to tear down and test LiFePo4 batteries, you should avoid any No-Name batteries or BMS. The small savings is not worth a fire that takes your boat. And even AGM batteries experience uneven cell charging which leads to swollen cells-shorted cells-fires.

 

[tiltrider1]

Regarding the OP question about insurance companies- I have found that blue water policy requests are concerned about any type of Lithium batteries, while simple coastal/inland waters policies don’t care or ask about battery type. They just want a good survey in general and battery- electrical - wiring is just one more system.

For blue water use the insurer will pay close attention to the survey report.

Let us not forget the sailing couple found deceased on Sable Island after battery fire. That was a DIY with used Li.

So unless you’re a sparky with equipment and knowledge to tear down and test LiFePo4 batteries, you should avoid any No-Name batteries or BMS. The small savings is not worth a fire that takes your boat. And even AGM batteries experience uneven cell charging which leads to swollen cells-shorted cells-fires.

Here we go. More fear mongering with unsupported facts and then jumping to a conclusion with absolutely no facts.

 

[Symphony]

I am sorry you got scared by my post, but the Sable Island couple died the previous month. Lithium fires are so ubiquitous now they barely get reported.

LiFePo4 batteries are not the problem, rather the problems are caused by high energy systems (including AGM) that are not safely engineered. Electrical fires are the #1 cause of boat sinkings.

 

[twistedtree]

Let us not forget the sailing couple found deceased on Sable Island after battery fire. That was a DIY with used Li.

There was definitely a fire based on the burned floatation suit one of them was wearing. But there is nothing to say what the cause of the fire was, nor whether batteries were involved in any way. So don't speculate like it's fact.

That said, I would also be the first to criticize the use of a salvages car battery pack, and even more so one made up of NMC cells. But there is nothing to say the power system was in any way responsible for the fire.

 

[twistedtree]

Regarding the OP question about insurance companies- I have found that blue water policy requests are concerned about any type of Lithium batteries, while simple coastal/inland waters policies don’t care or ask about battery type. They just want a good survey in general and battery- electrical - wiring is just one more system.

Any specifics about insurance companies taking these positions? Otherwise it's just more useless hear-say.

 

[Symphony]

Any specifics about insurance companies taking these positions? Otherwise it's just more useless hear-say.

I mentioned the division of Boat usage, offshore or coastal, figuring there are not any trawlers on this thread traveling offshore. For them Lithium insurance is not a problem as I reported.

If you’re going >350 nm offshore or all the way to West Indies (I am in Grenada this month) or Europe: the Travelers Custom and Concept Specialty Risk UK both ask the Lithium question up front. I don’t have Lithium anything, but still survey of my AGM system must be clean.

I hear from other long distance sailors Pataenius are DIY Lithium adverse, but since they no longer insure US boats I didn’t ask them.

Enjoy. I happen to love batteries and off-grid systems so this thread is good to have on our forum.

 

[twistedtree]

I mentioned the division of Boat usage, offshore or coastal, figuring there are not any trawlers on this thread traveling offshore. For them Lithium insurance is not a problem as I reported.

If you’re going >350 nm offshore or all the way to West Indies (I am in Grenada this month) or Europe: the Travelers Custom and Concept Specialty Risk UK both ask the Lithium question up front. I don’t have Lithium anything, but still survey of my AGM system must be clean.

I hear from other long distance sailors Pataenius are DIY Lithium adverse, but since they no longer insure US boats I didn’t ask them.

Enjoy. I happen to love batteries and off-grid systems so this thread is good to have on our forum.

For those asking about lithium, what stipulations are they placing to bind insurance?

 

[Symphony]

Among the Amel (many large Lithium systems) and Nordhavn (some lithium systems), they need a complete integrated system using a major manufacturer's equipment. It seems to me the insurer wants an integrated charge/storage/monitor as a proxy for good system design.

Using integrated products from the biggest names may not guarantee quality, but if there is a catastrophic loss the insurance company doesn't take it easily. They look who else had liability. Big marine electrical manufacturers can be sued, while no-name battery guy on Amazon has no assets. Also, major manufacturers will issue recalls and software updates while no-name seller will never be around to customer service after the sale.

 

[ValhowellPower]

I'm looking for a current list of insurance companies that allow lithium house banks on boats. Much of what I read is unconfirmed dock talk so looking for owners who actually have legitimate marine insurance with LFP. Thanks.

Check with your insurance company for sure, but also ensure you do an ABYC compliant install. Using an ABYC certified electrician is always a good move. This is a systems issue. Drop in does NOT MEAN DROP IN. Be aware.

 

[twistedtree]

Among the Amel (many large Lithium systems) and Nordhavn (some lithium systems), they need a complete integrated system using a major manufacturer's equipment. It seems to me the insurer wants an integrated charge/storage/monitor as a proxy for good system design.

Using integrated products from the biggest names may not guarantee quality, but if there is a catastrophic loss the insurance company doesn't take it easily. They look who else had liability. Big marine electrical manufacturers can be sued, while no-name battery guy on Amazon has no assets. Also, major manufacturers will issue recalls and software updates while no-name seller will never be around to customer service after the sale.

Huh? What insurance companies are saying/requiring these things?

 

[TomandMary]

I'm looking for a current list of insurance companies that allow lithium house banks on boats. Much of what I read is unconfirmed dock talk so looking for owners who actually have legitimate marine insurance with LFP. Thanks.

We have 12 lithium batteries in our saloon in an unused area which has ventilation. Heat, not off gassing, is your concern. Here is information on the insurance company we use in Florida. Even though the agent is in Florida, I think Normandy and/or Edward Williams (International) insures nationwide.

My husband is an electrical engineer, certified by ABYC, Victron reseller and Torqeedo electric motor reseller. He did the install and it was inspected via a surveyor.

Roseann Kaufman

Licensed Agent

1010 Kennedy Dr, Suite 300 | Key West, FL 33040

Office ( 305-296-5052, Ext. 114

*roseann@southernmostinsurance.com

þ southernmostinsurance.com

 

[Symphony]

Huh? What insurance companies are saying/requiring these things?

OK. If you are newer GRP American boat traveling American coastal and inland waters - don't worry about Lithium. Just click an insurance website, give your Make-Year-hull material - gas or diesel- no insurance losses or DUI ever - and you'll get a $ number from a computer.

If you are traveling blue water then every policy is a one-off. Your experience and track record matter as much as the hull and the batteries - everything matters. You'll need an experienced agent to check with human underwriters. There is no online list to click.

Good luck insurance shopping - seems to be an annual thing nowadays

 

[twistedtree]

If you are traveling blue water then every policy is a one-off. Your experience and track record matter as much as the hull and the batteries - everything matters. You'll need an experienced agent to check with human underwriters. There is no online list to click.

Are you saying that these policies prohibit Lithium Ion house batteries, or place stipulations on them? I think this thread was hoping to identify specific companies and specific restrictions or requirements.

 

[ksanders]

Are you saying that these policies prohibit Lithium Ion house batteries, or place stipulations on them? I think this thread was hoping to identify specific companies and specific restrictions or requirements.

No, this thread is filled with rumor and innuendo, with a smattering of false "facts" throughout.

I just reinsured this last month, as we are changing our cruising grounds to include the totality of the Pacific coast of the USA, and Canada, including Alaska.

The question was never asked about my battery technology, and my new policy does not have any language regarding the subject of batteries.

I seems to me that few here actually understand the simple concept of reading your insurance policy. I am not sure why, but it seems to me something that important would warrant the 20 minutes it takes.

What concerns me equally is that maybe the same people that cannot take the time to read and understand their insurance policy, might not take the time to read and understand the the electrical systems on their boat before undertaking a major change to a high current electrical system, such as a battery and charger upgrade.

 

[heysteve]

I´m looking for a new policy and got a quote from Markel. One of the questions is:

• Has the yacht(s) (including the engines) been modified or altered from its original stock condition?

Now how many 40-year-old boats have the original electrical system? I've got a query into the agent to see how literally I should take this question.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I´m looking for a new policy and got a quote from Markel. One of the questions is:

• Has the yacht(s) (including the engines) been modified or altered from its original stock condition?

Now how many 40-year-old boats have the original electrical system? I've got a query into the agent to see how literally I should take this question.

Be sure and list all of the "upgrades and improvements."

 

[SteveK]

@ksanders
Kevin, does your policy have an offshore limit? 12m or 200m for instance.
Not sure why blue water would make a difference when asking about LFP.

 

[Mambo42]

I hear from other long distance sailors Pataenius are DIY Lithium adverse, but since they no longer insure US boats I didn’t ask them.

I have Pantaenius as well and have LiFePO4 onboard which is insured. I had to send them all documentation incl specs of who installed it, invoices etc, but in the end they did accept it. First they thought I was talking about Lithium Ion, but after i explained it was LiFePO4, which is not dangerous, they accepted it.

 

[ksanders]

@ksanders
Kevin, does your policy have an offshore limit? 12m or 200m for instance.
Not sure why blue water would make a difference when asking about LFP.

Here is the language in my policy for cruising grounds.

Warranted confined to Pacific coastwise and inland tributary waters of the United States and Canada between 51 degrees north latitude and Cabo San Quintin, Mexico.
Pacific coastwise and inland tributary waters of Canada between 51 degrees north latitude and Yakutat, Alaska between May 1st and October 1st, both days inclusive.

With this wording I am covered going up and down the coast in my boat. How far from shore, well that is not defined, and I did not choose to further clarify because it does not apply to my planned use of my boat.

I do not know what if any limitations on batteries for example might be imposed on persons with policies that cover them crossing the ocean.