Insurance for boats with lithium house banks

[SeaGator]

I'm looking for a current list of insurance companies that allow lithium house banks on boats. Much of what I read is unconfirmed dock talk so looking for owners who actually have legitimate marine insurance with LFP. Thanks.

 

[Nordlund Xpress]

I think you are going to get a similar response from most. OK as long as professionally installed with BMS. 'Professionally' may need to be defined. The Travelers responded with this response, and I have seen multiple others report the same.

 

[tiltrider1]

Read your policy. If it doesn’t specifically exclude LFP then you are good. If you ask you will get the “professionally installed” quote.

 

[CharlieO.]

I checked my policy to see if there were exclusions for the LiFePo4 batteries. I saw no exclusions, so I don't see the need to ask.

 

[rslifkin]

Read your policy. If it doesn’t specifically exclude LFP then you are good. If you ask you will get the “professionally installed” quote.

I agree as far as coverage under an existing policy. But if they require a survey at one of the renewals then they may decline to renew if they treat it as an underwriting guideline.

 

[ksanders]

I just bought new insurance for my boat and was not asked about LiFeP04 prior to purchase.

Also reading my policy there is nothing regarding LifeP04 or any other battery technology.

FYI, most dock rumors are total BS.

 

[twistedtree]

The ONLY insurance company I have heard of that takes issues with LFP is Markel. So just avoid them. This is just like CharlieJ's query about LFP fires on boats. In reality, there are none.

 

[SeaGator]

Yes, Markel has restrictions. Thank you.

Getting back to my original question, I am looking for insurance companies that do allow LFP or at least don't ask/care. Looking for actual names, preferably from boat owners who have them. Thanks.

 

[CharlieO.]

Yes, Markel has restrictions. Thank you.

Getting back to my original question, I am looking for insurance companies that do allow LFP or at least don't ask/care. Looking for actual names, preferably from boat owners who have them. Thanks.

I insure with Progressive. My policy doesn't include any exclusions for LiFePo4 batteries.

 

[ksanders]

Yes, Markel has restrictions. Thank you.

Getting back to my original question, I am looking for insurance companies that do allow LFP or at least don't ask/care. Looking for actual names, preferably from boat owners who have them. Thanks.

I think you are missing something here.

If you want insurance, please contact a professional broker. That persons job is to find you a policy that fits your needs.

Very few insurance companies will even talk to a non client. They sell only through independent brokers.

So... if you had 100 names of insurance carriers you still need to funnel your request through a broker.

 

[SeaGator]

I think you are missing something here.

If you want insurance, please contact a professional broker. That persons job is to find you a policy that fits your needs.

Very few insurance companies will even talk to a non client. They sell only through independent brokers.

So... if you had 100 names of insurance carriers you still need to funnel your request through a broker.

Kevin, I fully understand your point and you are correct, but there's a reason I am asking. Many of us have already or want to upgrade to a lithium house bank and many fear mongers and naysayers preach you cannot get insurance for them. I am compiling a list of those insurance companies that do.

 

[guy with a boat]

Yes, Markel has restrictions. Thank you.

Getting back to my original question, I am looking for insurance companies that do allow LFP or at least don't ask/care. Looking for actual names, preferably from boat owners who have them. Thanks.

As already stated, any company not named Markel.

LFP installs on boats are very common and more so by the day. You might be trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Markel will figure it out or lose lots of business. This issue should be near the bottom of the selection criteria for insurance, because almost all insurers know enough to not care.
As a side note, all rational carriers will expect and require competent design and installation of all boat systems.

 

[3rdOrderEffect]

I have GEICO (through Boat U.S.) No restrictions on lithium batteries.

 

[slowgoesit]

Markel says they will allow if Batts are US made, and include a US made BMS, and are installed by an ABYC certified Electrician during the original build . . . Of course I don't know of ANY LiFePO4 batteries that don't have overseas components . . .
Jackline (now it is actually a division of Markel) says absolutely not, under any circumstances.
Hanover has been related to me as not allowing ANY Lithium chemistry.

One more important item from Jackline's website, is that if a loss is determined to be a result of ANY Lithium battery (read cell phones, cordless drills, electric bikes, electric tooth brushes, boat toys, etc), not only will Jackline not pay for the loss, but removal of the wreck (if wrecked) is totally the responsibility of the owner of the boat . . . .

All it would take is for the insurance company to find ONE fire inspector, or jack of all trades handyman with a nice letterhead to "certify" that the fire was a result of a Lithium Ion (take you pick) appliance, and you're going to be headed to court. . . .

 

[rslifkin]

One more important item from Jackline's website, is that if a loss is determined to be a result of ANY Lithium battery (read cell phones, cordless drills, electric bikes, electric tooth brushes, boat toys, etc), not only will Jackline not pay for the loss, but removal of the wreck (if wrecked) is totally the responsibility of the owner of the boat . . . .

That tells me they're entirely unsuitable as a marine insurer at this point and anyone who has coverage through Jackline needs to switch insurers immediately. Having an "out" for providing any coverage if they think a cell phone, handheld VHF, or other device that would be expected to be on pretty much any boat caused a fire makes the policy completely worthless in my mind.

I haven't seen any similar language in my policy with Markel, but realistically I expect that when I'm ready to convert to LFP at some point in the near future I'll have to suck up the cost of a survey and have my agent find different insurance unless they change their opinions before then.

 

[twistedtree]

Travelers - no problem with LFP.

 

[JackConnick]

Chubb

 

[Insequent]

I had an insurance survey a few months ago, by the same guy who had done it a few years ago. On LFP's the advice was to get a letter from the installer with wording along the lines of "installation and associated charging and ventilation is compliant manufacturers specifications and AS 3000". In practice such a letter would take me off the hook and put my marine electrician on the hook in the event of an issue. In the event he sent me a statement more or less saying that without being as specific.

My takeaway on the topic is that I suspect that in the event of an LFP incident insurers will be asking who installed. So I would caution against any DIY unless you can get a licenced sparky to say its been done to spec. Otherwise, good luck!

I know the surveyor reasonably well. Chatting about insurance in general he was horrified at the trend of insurers using every trick in the book to avoid paying out. He does spend fair bit of time as an expert witness in court proceeding's...

Prior to survey he wanted to know which insurer it was for. These days it seems they all have lists of preferred surveyors, and indicate how the survey report should be structured. So this time instead of getting a bunch of "must do and tell us when completed" items the report listed some recommendations at the end of each section. A lot is "best practice" type stuff. I sent the survey report to the insurer and have not had any response from them, in part because no major issues were noted. But I suspect in part for the reasons outlined below.

I extracted the recommendations into a word document for the purpose of working through them line by line. Its over 2 pages long. There is nothing onerous, but I am conscious that in the event of any future claim there will be checking on whether the recommendations were addressed. In due course I will have an amended word doc showing both the recommendations and what I did to address them.

Some are simple. For example, a couple of years ago there was a notification by AMSA that EPIRB's had to the float-free type. I installed one, but the hydrostatic release has to be serviced (replaced) annually. I have not done that. After installation I realised that the float-free requirement was for commercial vessels, I did not need it for my recreational boat. So to become compliant I could simply relocate the EPIRB to the pilothouse and ditch the hydrostatic enclosure.

 

[tiltrider1]

If an insurance company asked who installed after the fact, nothing changes, they are still on the hook, unless your policy specifically called out for licensed LFP installation only. Haven’t seen such a thing in an insurance policy.

Markel might be the exception.

 

[ksanders]

Guys, read your policies. It's really simple. Open the contract you entered into with your insurance carrier and read the words.

Do not make assumptions.
Bo not believe internet lore.

Read your contract.

if it's not in the contract, it does not exist.

Here is some language that is in many contracts that might surprise you.

1. Exclusion for incomplete, or incorrect, repairs, maintenance, modifications, or alterations. What does that mean? What would that mean to you? To me that means just what it says. My opinion, do not do things to your boat you do not know how to do correctly.

2. Exclusion for latent defects. What does that mean? a latent defect is a hidden defect, something that a causal observer would not notice. Here is an example... If you install a battery, and you do it correctly, and the battery fails internally regardless of the technology, the root cause of your loss would be a latent defect.

Now go back and read your policy. Look really closely at the exclusions section on a "all risk policy" or the part that discusses covered losses on a "defined risk" policy. Are you comfortable with that language?

If not, give your broker a call and buy different coverage.

 

[mikehar]

I recently got a quote from SeaFare and included this endorsement for lithium batteries:
1. Lithium batteries and their components must be installed by an ABYC Technician or certified marine electrician;
2. Any lithium batteries must be charged in the container provided by the manufacturer, using charging equipment supplied or approved by the manufacturer and monitored for fire, temperature or smoke damage;
3. The location where any lithium battery is charged shall be free of any sources of ignition or flammable materials;
4. All manufacturer guidelines and recommendations in relation to the use, storage, charging and maintenance of any lithium battery shall be complied with; and
5. Any repairs, modifications, alterations to any lithium battery or its charging equipment must only be performed by the manufacturer.

 

[SteveK]

I understood the rest but this

Any lithium batteries must be charged in the container provided by the manufacturer

Then this

Lithium batteries and their components must be installed by an ABYC Technician or certified marine electrician;

ABYC use of the word Lithium by itself in E13 instead of Lithium iron may be the problem insurers have as it is not specific to LifeP04.
I'll bet these insurers also insure RV's that have installed non LFP Lithium ion as even one poster on TF was planning to do in their boat.

 

[JackConnick]

New ABYC specs/regs on manufacture and installation are due out in July. It may take the industry a while to catch up, but if you aren't in a hurry, it may be good to wait.

 

[SeaGator]

New ABYC specs/regs on manufacture and installation are due out in July. It may take the industry a while to catch up, but if you aren't in a hurry, it may be good to wait.

Thanks for the reply and I hear you, but...
ABYC is typically behind by 3-5 years on most categories, especially lithium. my understanding is there was some infighting (disagreements) on that particular panel so much of last year's new standards were delayed until this summer. ABYC is a non-regulatory organization. However, most insurance companies and surveyors follow what they set in their standards. Both the boat manufacturers and DIYers are always out ahead and setting unofficial standards until ABYC catches up.

 

[JackConnick]

...However, most insurance companies and surveyors follow what they set in their standards. Both the boat manufacturers and DIYers are always out ahead and setting unofficial standards until ABYC catches up.

Exactly, if you want to make sure your insurance covers you, those are the standards they accept. As far as DIYers; the old saying is "Pioneers get shot full of arrows...".

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

ABYC is a non-regulatory organization.

Exactly. Unfortunately insurance companies and the ABYC treat these as if it were law. It is not law, just a 'suggestion'. ABYC has way to much power in the boating world.

 

[SteveK]

Exactly. Unfortunately insurance companies and the ABYC treat these as if it were law. It is not law, just a 'suggestion'. ABYC has way to much power in the boating world.

Well said, insurance companies, as long as they consider ABYC as gospel, then it is the rules we must follow. Just quoted the PANBO E13 explanation which shows what I said before that E13 basically says Lithium ion, or all Lithium battery chemistries, never mind that boaters should only use LFP. ABYC should not be including reference to the batteries that can catch fire. That is why insurers are getting nervous, humans will conclude if ABYC mentioned all lithium ion chemistries then it must be OK.

 

[Greg QS]

Chubb
When I was doing my upgrade, before hand I specifically asked. The broker did not know. He called directly and responded no restrictions on the lithium life pod batteries.

 

[twistedtree]

Exactly. Unfortunately insurance companies and the ABYC treat these as if it were law. It is not law, just a 'suggestion'. ABYC has way to much power in the boating world.

I think ABYC has zero power, and your Insurance Company has all the power.

 

[slowgoesit]

I would love to see ABYC issue recommendations that address specifically LiFePO4 batteries installed in boats. Anything less specific is just muddying the waters, and is basically useless to us as boat owners.