Identifying source of list

[BDofMSP]

Our boat has (and always has had since we bought it) a slight list to port. The purchase surveyor pointed out that the amount of equipment that was located on the port side was much greater (including the 20 hp motor end of the dinghy, the 50 amp Glendinning cord bucket, the fridge, the icemaker, and the entire guest cabin) and that the starboard balanced that with basically the toilet and the water heater and that's it. I'm not sure, but it possibly has increased over the past 6 years. If it has, it's almost imperceptible, and maybe it's just my obsession with it that has created the impression.

Nonetheless, I don't like it and I want to get to the bottom of it. When we're in heavy seas it's constantly on my mind. I have taken the dinghy off and pulled out all of the shore power cable onto the dock and don't notice much change, so I'm worried that the surveyor was wrong and there's some other cause.

Looking for thoughts on how I should investigate this. Hire another surveyor? The last one didn't give me a lot of confidence, and I don't have any recommendations of good local surveyors. Hire a marine architect? The only firms nearby are in Duluth and they serve the Great Lakes shipping industry - not sure that's going to be cost effective for a recreational boat owner. Just ask the yard to look into it?

Thanks for your input.
BD

 

[Gdavid]

This may sound silly, but you could get idea of the magnitude of the problem by asking some friends to stand a set distance to starboard from the centerline and figure out how much torque you would need to right it. Then figured out if you have enough items that could be moved, or if you have a problem with the boat like wet core on one side, or water trapped outside a stringer.

Ask men to help you, because I won't recommend asking a bunch of ladies their weight.

 

[Mac2]

Both boats I have owned have added ballast on one side to level the boat. When I added a 1,500 lb boat to the upper deck, I transfer fuel now to balance the boat. I didn’t have this ability with my last boat and used cement blocks. I can’t imagine any boat being level with all the equipment boats come with now.

 

[rslifkin]

My boat has always had a slight port list due to layout and equipment placement. I've reduced it some by moving around where some stuff is stored. And when we added the dinghy we lift it with the motor end to starboard. The list is probably half of what it was when we got the boat, but it's still there. However, we have more seating (both on deck and inside) to starboard, so at this point I don't worry much about it, as it's generally more level when we're actually on the boat (and the boat is tender enough for the first degree or 2 of roll that us moving around has as much effect as the static list anyway). Plus when traveling we stow the power cords to starboard so that also makes a small improvement compared to the "at the dock" condition.

In our case, we have the galley, on deck wet bar (with icemaker), water heater and water pressure tank all on the port side. The starboard side has the generator, but that's not quite as far outboard as some of the stuff to port, and it isn't quite heavy enough to balance things out.

 

[SteveK]

Moving stuff off the boat will have some effect, but if that stuff is intended to be on the boat then move it to the opposite side. Moving 50lbs from one side to the other is the same as adding 100lbs to the opposite side.
The dingy with OB, can you reverse direction for instance. If you have fuel tanks on both sides ensure they are at same level (of course moving fuel would help)

 

[Blissboat]

This may be irrelevant to the OP, but worth keeping in mind. Like people, boats are prone to weight gain over time. The additional weight typically appears gradually, and finds itself a home somewhere higher than the center of gravity. Obviously enough weight to one side or the other will induce a list. Correcting the list by shifting weight has a neutral effect on stability, but correcting the list by adding weight on the opposite side reduces stability. How come? Because any additional weight above the COG makes the vessel more tender and slower to right itself. The same applies to adjusting fore and aft trim.

Weight gain aboard is incremental, but the effects are cumulative and when the right circumstances converge - extra passengers aboard, fuel and water tanks close to empty, a heavy swell or boat wakes - the effects can become dangerous. I think that all boaters need to think critically about how much has been added to their boats over time, and where it's been added.

 

[Comodave]

Agree on the weight gain theory. I would remove everything off the boat and see what the trim is like. Then you can do the friends on one side to see how much weight it would take to trim the boat. Then add the heaviest things on the high side and store them permanently there. Try to store the heaviest things outboard as that will have the most effect. Then look at the trim and see where you are. Do the friends thing again to see how much ballast you need. I added 600 pounds of lead ingots in a previous boat. Placed it in then glassed over it to hold it in place as well as contain any lead that might crumble off. Worked great.

 

[Gdavid]

Batteries are among the most straightforward item to relocate. If your bank has been increased over the life of the boat and not accounted for, this would be something to address. Not the cheapest solution, but it could be effective. Alternatively, it may be good time to consider a lighter technology.

 

[Diep]

Agree with all of the above. A surveyor or NA isn't really going to be able to do anything you can't do for yourself as described above. All they can do is poke around and try to identify sources of weight.

I will add that if you have interconnected tanks on either side they will self-balance but in doing so will exacerbate the list a little bit

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I just removed three 158 pound 8D AGM batteries from the starboard corner of my lazarette and was surprised at how little that impacted my list to starboard. The list was much more pronounced after I removed the centermost battery leaving two of them as far outboard as they could get, but the list is still about the same as it was before I removed that first one.

I wish I had a level nor quantifiable measurements before and after to compare, but I do have a seat in the shower that accumulates water during use. Not much change if any.

 

[ranger58sb]

Looking for thoughts on how I should investigate this.

Maybe start with your own really detailed inventory of systems and "stuff" on each side of centerline? You could probably look up and/or calculate actual weights of various systems -- water heater (filled), ACs, pumps, water tanks, batteries, etc etc etc.

You might get luck and find an "Ah, Ha!" in there somewhere...

Our spare props were initially stored on centerline. In the ER. On the way to everything. In the way, always. PITA. So we moved them to under a bunk on the starboard side. Which in turn meant it was better for us to reverse our dinghy after that, so the outboard weight to port would mostly offset. Close, anyway...

Our more noticeable "list" is actually fore-and-aft. Drop an ice cube in the forward part of the galley, it'll slide all the way through the saloon to the cockpit doors. Also likely dinghy related...

-Chris

 

[jgwinks]

Batteries are among the most straightforward item to relocate. If your bank has been increased over the life of the boat and not accounted for, this would be something to address. Not the cheapest solution, but it could be effective. Alternatively, it may be good time to consider a lighter technology.

Exactly. I swapped two 8D lead batteries for 8 lead golf cart batteries, and now the boat has a slight list to starboard. I actually don't know how evenly trimmed the boat was originally as I did the swap immediately after purchase and the boat went back on the hard after the sea trial. (We're in Michigan and it was October.) We didn't notice it during the trial though. I've moved everything I can to port and it's a little better but still lists. The 8D's were heavy, but not as heavy as 8 GC's. And apparently heavier than the 7.5 kw generator located on the opposite side.
The 65 foot research vessel I used to run has a marked list due to some last minute, poorly thought out design changes during it's build. They almost didn't get their Coast Guard approval as an inspected passenger vessel because of it.

 

[PhilPB]

I also had a starboard list of about 4" . I assumed the four flooded house bank batteries were the culprit so I methodically removed them one by one until the list was no longer detected. After that experiment I put the batteries back and added a little over 200lbs of encapsulated concrete (in construction trash bags) to the port side and it leveled out perfectly.

 

[SIBERNUT]

Change the name to "Eileen".

 

[Jeff F]

Both my trawlers had a slight permanent list. My solution was always to draw down the fuel tank on the low side of the list until the boat was level. I keep a small inclinometer aboard and switch tanks when I notice a list.

I can live with a bit of list when both tanks are full or empty. The rest of the time I'm level.

 

[SteveK]

Sail boaters have it so easy.

 

[Frosty]

Yep. I'm always fighting a slight list to starboard (just the way permanent things are in the boat). Like you, I always use my "list side" (starboard) fuel tank first/preferentially, so do achieve an even keel much of the time.

It also simplified remembering where I've stowed things in an unexpected way. Is it heavy? It's on the port side. Lightweight? Look in the starboard stowage

 

[BDofMSP]

Thank you all for the replies. Work blocks most of my access and it's been tough to reply.

A couple details about the layout (each fore to aft):
On Centerline

• chain locker / anchor
• master berth
• thruster and thruster batteries
• forward air conditioning
• holding tank
• helm (on flybridge)
• dinette
• TV cabinet holding tools and most spares
• generator
• flybridge seating (somewhat to port)
• beer cooler (on flybridge)
• fuel tank (single)
• spare props
• dinghy (but engine on port side)

On both sides

• hanging lockers (just clothes, basically balanced)
• water tanks (tied together, self balancing but I appreciate the comment about how the list exacerbates the weight of the port tank)
• engines
• battery banks (four identical batteries on each side, in the exact same place)

On Starboard side

• head (sink and toilet)
• electrical panel
• couch in saloon
• stairs down to staterooms and up to flybridge (empty space)
• water heater (11 gal)

On Port side

• shower room with fiberglass shower liner
• guest stateroom berth
• hanging locker (mostly empty)
• Galley - microwave, electric stovetop, refrigerator
• aft AC unit
• garbage / recycling
• Icemaker (flybridge)
• Recliner
• footrest (contains a couple power tools)
• rack with 12 bottles of wine
• Gen start battery (group 24)
• Glendinning cablemaster with ~60 ft of 50 amp shorepower cable
• 3 teak folding deck chairs (cockpit)

Most of those things on the port side that are substantial are not moveable - they are built in. The dingy motor is on the port side, but if I were to reverse the davit system that would put it right over the swim ladder preventing boarding from the water and would block the entrance gate to the boat.

I plan to add a dedicated house bank next year and I have a spot on the starboard in the lazarette identified. I hoped it would offset the list and that weight would be low in the boat. I guess the next step truly is to do the "bunch of guys" thing and find out exactly what I need to achieve balance. From there I can determine if the new bank will cut it, or if additional offsetting weight will be required. Agree that no surveyor or architect is needed to solve this issue.

Thanks for talking me through this. Lots of great advice.

BD

 

[BruceK]

Change the name to "Eileen".

Is that "Eileen Dover"?

 

[Nick F]

First, get yourself a $30 digital level. Choose a place to locate it so that you get repeatable measurements. Now you can monitor the situation objectively.

 

[Gdavid]

If you have decent access to your water lines and separate fill lines, a selector valve in place of the tee would allow control of your water distribution and provide some help.

 

[BDofMSP]

If you have decent access to your water lines and separate fill lines, a selector valve in place of the tee would allow control of your water distribution and provide some help.

I was thinking the same thing. I do not have separate fills but I could open the valve when I fill and allow them to balance. Might be a good approach.

 

[Barking Sands]

After changing everything around on my little boat I had a list. I moved some lead ballast around and went and bought 300 lbs more. Just moved it around until I was happy.

 

[BruceK]

First, get yourself a $30 digital level. Choose a place to locate it so that you get repeatable measurements. Now you can monitor the situation objectively.

Try your phone. Recently moving car registration plates one car to another, the fitter used his phone to check levels.

 

[High Wire]

Try reversing the dinghy direction on the davits so that the engine is on the starboard side. That would be a net 200 pound shift in a couple minutes.

 

[O C Diver]

When I bought my boat, when the fuel was balanced in the tanks I had a pretty significant lean to port. As the boat was new to me, it was pretty empty. So I started analyzing the lean. Things that changed the lean included:

Fuel when tanks were unbalanced.
One 80 gallon water tank to port.
80 gallon waste tank to port.
Galley to port.
20 gallon water heater to port.

So when I went to do the refit, part of the plan was to balance the boat by moving heavy items to starboard.

The battery bank was fairly easy to relocate from next to the engine to outboard starboard. Really wasn't interested in moving the galley, water heater, waste and water tank. So next was to load the boat with heavier items stored to starboard and lighter items to port.

During the refit, I plumbed the engine and generator to draw only from the starboard tank. The fuel was loaded to the port tank. The goal was to polish the fuel from port to starboard. There was also a valve installed to allow the tanks to equalize should the pump fail. So each morning of travel, I would check the tanks fuel levels (with a Tank Tender gauge system), the boat level at the helm, and then balance the boat with fuel while checking the fluid levels on the engine etc. Typically I would have to move fuel every other day. As the engine consumed fuel, the transfer was from port to starboard. The amount varied based on draining the one water tank that was offset to port and filling the waste tank to port.

With the boat fully loaded (fuel and water), in two steps, I added ballast to starboard. The lead plates were 11" square by 1" thick and weighed 30 pounds. They were mounted on the saloon floor against the hull. The objective was to have them as far to starboard as possible requiring the least amount of weight. I ended up with 420 pounds of weight that was screwed to the hull. You don't want ballast to shift in beam seas!

I considered 420 pounds of ballast to be trivial on a 40,000 pound boat.

In summary, empty your boat of stuff. Reload the boat with heavier items to the high side. Move the easy items like batteries to the high side. Ballast to the farthest point out to the high side. Consider loads that will vary (such as waste and water). If you have fuel tanks outboard of the engine, use them for ballast.

Ted

 

[BDofMSP]

Try reversing the dinghy direction on the davits so that the engine is on the starboard side. That would be a net 200 pound shift in a couple minutes.

It's not that simple. The davits only work one way. Reinstalling them in the reverse would block the boarding ladder from the water as well as the boarding gate when loaded.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Is that "Eileen Dover"?

"Lena Waybac?"

Thanks everybody for the "list" of items that might cause my problem of leaning to port. I hadn't thought of a few. My hot water tank and expansion tank are on the port in the ER. Spare prop, anchor and chain in the lazarette are also on the port, but might be time to move them.

Just had a good look at my hull bottom. Looked like a jungle after two months cruising. I actually noticed that my cruising speed at 1,650rpm was down about .3kt on the way home. But does a slight list cause any issues? Probably 2 degrees is noticeable, but does it actually effect anything important?

 

[Ivan on TubTub]

I

 

[Ivan on TubTub]

I see a lot of great things in the way of recommendations to try. I have a 40 foot troller that took on a 4 inch list to port. We had not changed anything in the boat from when we bought it and moving stuff around on deck didn’t seem to change anything. When I got to the transit slip, I drained all the water out of the freshwater tanks and only filled the high side. This corrected the list and overnight the list returned. I figured out that the crossover connection between Port and starboard has no check valves on it. By adding oneway check valves to the pressure pump I was able to correct the issue. Good luck in your troubleshooting. I would be curious to hear what your conclusion is.