I just discovered AI

[Mac2]

Someone mentioned AI on the forum recently. I am finally getting around to wiring my solar panels (another thread). I was getting mixed results, for wire size, using graphs for the 50 foot (one way) run to the batteries. I used ChatGBT. I am not a tech guy. A victory for me is figuring out how to listen to voice mail. I was blown away. AI walked me through the whole process, including asking questions for information I didn’t provide. It even asked if I wanted a diagram that included mppts needed, wire and fuse sizes, etc. The results showed I needed to add two more mppts for my panels. I had paralled two panels that had the potential of over loading the single mppt they were wired to. I was also shocked at how quick AI is able to “think”. It shows every formula Victron uses to determine mppt size, wire size, etc. Pretty scary really. Many jobs are going to be lost…maybe. The question I have is how accurate/reliable the information is? Is Trawler Forum doomed? Is it possible to break AI if I ask, “What is the best anchor?”.

 

[socalrider]

It is getting really really good. Particularly for stuff like what you asked.

It does still hallucinate though - so make sure you take your finished drawing/plan to an expert (or here) to validate before ordering parts.

When ChatGPT 3.0 came out a couple years ago I asked it to recommend an anchor, and it told me the rule of thumb was that the anchor weight should be 5-10% of the vessel's displacement! So it's come a long way (it now gives a reasonable answer).

A challenge it still has: it doesn't tell you if it's unsure of something. It projects the same confidence regardless, which makes it dangerous. Honestly back when it was wrong 30% of the time it was less dangerous than now, when it's wrong 1-5% of the time, as you get lazy and stop check it.

 

[Frosty]

The results showed I needed to add two more mppts for my panels. I had paralled two panels that had the potential of over loading the single mppt they were wired to.

I know this is about AI but I guess part of AI is knowing it's not always right. Even though it always sounds right.

Overpaneling is a thing, and is not always wrong. It can be wrong, but it can also be a decent idea. Depends on the details, the solar controller model, etc. I can't speak to whether AI knows the difference.

******
More to the AI topic, here is what I wonder:

So AI gets its information essentially from things that are already on the web. Many of those things are websites that people took the time to make. But now oftentimes people just do an AI search (which, btw, uses a huge amount of power compared to a search engine search), so they never go to that original website, but instead read AI's aggregation. That makes me wonder if people won't bother making those original websites anymore (no hits, no interaction), and so eventually all that will be left will be AI (or maybe not that dramatic but just say a huge loss of original material going forward).

TF could be included (?).

 

[Mac2]

Electricity is one of the biggest safety concerns for boats. I liked how it gives you the best option, acceptable option, and no go option. It was an easy choice for me to go with adding the two additional mppts (Victron 100/30) for less than $250. This also added better performance in shadowing conditions. I was also wrong on my breakers and fuses. It was disappointing to discover the Victron Lynx distributor only uses the mega fuses, which aren’t available in in lower amperage. I need 20-25 amp fuses and mega fuses start at 40 amps. I will need to add in-line fuses to the outputs of the four 100/30 mppts. It was nice “discussing” my options with AI.

 

[Frosty]

Electricity is one of the biggest safety concerns for boats. I liked how it gives you the best option, acceptable option, and no go option.

Of course you want a safe system. I'm just mentioning that AI isn't always right, and "overpaneling" is not always dangerous or wrong. Just as one example: Your panels are always flat, and your quality solar controller is specced to handle "overpaneling" just fine. This could mean that the only time the overpaneling even really has an effect is at noon on July 15th or thereabouts. As long as the solar controller can handle this, it's no problem, not dangerous, and you are only giving up a little bit of power at that moment, but the rest of the year you are not even effectively overpaneled.

Now, I don't know your "numbers." AI may have been correct. And of course it's fine to have more controllers too.

I was also wrong on my breakers and fuses. It was disappointing to discover the Victron Lynx distributor only uses the mega fuses, which aren’t available in in lower amperage.

This has always been an annoyance for me with Victron's Lynx series. Why on earth did they go with one of the least expensive fuse types that has so few size options.

need 20-25 amp fuses and mega fuses start at 40 amps.

I'm not as smart as AI, but I'm curious why you need 20-25 amp fuses. That would be the ampacity of really small wire (say 14AWG or less). In fact, smaller fuse sizes can induce a bit more voltage drop than larger ones (hence I usually fuse solar circuits up towards the wire ampacity, not down at the solar controller amp size). Again though, I don't have a drawing of what you have planned, so AI may have given you perfect advice.

Here is an article by Rodd Collins that explains about the voltage drop:

Fusing & Termination Voltage Drop - Marine How To

5A Fuse - 5A Load As boaters looking for optimal charging performance we need to keep in mind that the path between the charge source and battery has voltage drop. This is just a fact of life. For charge sources that

marinehowto.com

 

[Airstream345]

Keep in mind that LLMs are trained on publicly accessible content—basically, the internet. Given that about 90% of the unqualified, questionable advice posted in online boating groups falls into the “take this with a grain of salt” category, it would be wise to double-check your plans with a qualified marine electrician.

 

[DDW]

Worse than that, most of the large language models suck up all content, not curated content. Since an increasingly large percentage of internet content is AI generated, they are increasingly eating their own offal. This has been studied by academia, with the predictable result that within 3 or 4 generations of AI training on AI, the output is meaningless.

 

[drewread]

I really wish they would drop the "I", because there is no actual intelligence yet.

"AI" is just a buzzword.

 

[socalrider]

All the above criticism is valid. I (and from what I can understand, also AI researchers) am pretty astonished that LLMs work at all, much less at how well they work. With all the garbage they ingest, somehow they still do *really* well at a ton of stuff.

Worth taking a step back to appreciate that I think, and also to appreciate how unknown & unknowable the next several years of development of this technology really are.

 

[Ithaka7]

The bottom line is that AI can provide excellent summaries of all of the threads in this forum and allow us to get to the relevant information in seconds. So, in a way, AI will make this forum obsolete even though it was trained on this forum to begin with.

 

[mvweebles]

Google Gemini is well respected by technical reviewers. I've started to use it instead of a regular browser search.

As an aside, one of the cruisers I recently met used to be self employed as some sort of web optimization consultant - how to drive more traffic to a client site. A year or so ago he started to notice search traffic was declining at a rapid pace and decided that AI queries were returning answers so users never went to a website. He felt his livelihood was endangered. He's now selling life insurance.

Peter

 

[HeadedToTexas]

So many are excited about AI that I thought I'd try it. It was wrong about the first two questions I asked. It was like the answers you'd get from a confident and well spoken 4th grade kid. Sometimes they sound smart and reasonable, but upon investigation you see the answers are based on wrong information and poor assumptions. Garbage in, garbage out.

As humans responsible and successful enough to buy boats like these, we need to do our own thinking and work. That work should include judging the information we find based on experience and validity. AI does not seem to have experience or the desire to validate.

And as humans, we all need to take a day or so to re-read or watch the prophecy of SciFi on the subject of AI.

 

[drewread]

The bottom line is that AI can provide excellent summaries of all of the threads in this forum and allow us to get to the relevant information in seconds. So, in a way, AI will make this forum obsolete even though it was trained on this forum to begin with.

If A"I" makes this forum obsolete.... Where will it scrape its information to regurgitate?

 

[ksanders]

I use Grok, and subscribe to their service.

For me, it's a search engine on steroids. I can ask Grok to research or clairify something I've seen, or am thinking about and it will come up with an answer.

Yes, sometimes it seems to go off on a tangent, but thast's where RI (real intelegence) can filter the results and re-formulate the question, or even point out Grok's error, and it will learn and get back on track

 

[trawlercap]

I have solved any number of problems using AI. One example, I can post a pic of my Xantrax screen and ask questions. I post pics a lot, and screenshots. No need to explain, just use a photo. I learned from a user to spill your guts, as if you're talking to anyone and trying to describe or figure something out. It is a great assistant. I was taught to use no less than 5 lines for each prompt. And never answer the questions at the end, as it's designed to keep you engaged (Would you like fries with that sir?) It's a two-edged sword but a great tool.

 

[Mac2]

What I liked was how AI answered with specific references to the Victron manual/formulas and showed the resulting math used to determine the answer. The “best, acceptable, wrong” answers were automatically included. Still blown away.

 

[sjisailor]

As noted, AI (meaning LLMs) is trained on public (often copyrighted) information and that is a mix of good and bad. Personally I would recommend (a) find a reputable original source, and (b) to the extent AI suggests something, always double-check it with a separate search (or, if available in its results, the article it links to as a source).

To the latter point, I fairly often see AI results in Google that link to a supposed reference source for their claims .. but when I click through to the reference, the AI answer is not actually in that source as far as I can tell. So always check on your own and don't believe it just because it claims a reference source.

 

[heysteve]

My Victron Multiplus can support a 120 VAC input current limit of up to 50 amps. My generator can do that but I only have 30 amp service at my slip. So I decided to ask ChatGPT how I would wire/program the Multiplus to dynamically set the limit based on input source and... it worked! It came up with the steps involved and I was able to ask it questions on details. Pretty impressive and a real time saver.

 

[DDW]

When I ask Google Gemini a question to which I well know the answer, it is right sometimes, partially wrong or incomplete sometimes, and clearly wrong sometimes, in about equal measure. So what am I to think about a Gemini answer to a question to which I don't know the answer? By the time I research and vet the answer, I've spent more time than just researching it properly.

 

[SteveK]

Here is what Ai says it does to give you an answer based on your query.
AI on Google Search provides answers through AI Overviews, which summarize key information at the top of the search results page. These responses use large language models that gather and combine information from many websites
Ai (current version) searches the web and gives you answers without knowing if the gathered information is correct or not. So if TF poster posts an incorrect answer to your question then Ai repeats that incorrect answer.

 

[Mac2]

Here is what Ai says it does to give you an answer based on your query.
AI on Google Search provides answers through AI Overviews, which summarize key information at the top of the search results page. These responses use large language models that gather and combine information from many websites
Ai (current version) searches the web and gives you answers without knowing if the gathered information is correct or not. So if TF poster posts an incorrect answer to your question then Ai repeats that incorrect answer.

@heysteve had the same experience (great) as me. He also had Victron questions. ChatGBT seems to be squared away with Victron information, which, as I stated in the earlier post, is quoting the Victron manual. Good information in, good information out.

 

[SteveK]

@heysteve had the same experience (great) as me. He also had Victron questions. ChatGBT seems to be squared away with Victron information, which, as I stated in the earlier post, is quoting the Victron manual. Good information in, good information out.

@Mac2 Please expand on this as you replied to my post that said Ai will use internet available relevant info to answer your query. Of course if the manual was used/posted for a previous question then you would also get that correct answer. But I doubt that Ai deep dives into online manuals, not yet anyway.

 

[socalrider]

Here is what Ai says it does to give you an answer based on your query.
AI on Google Search provides answers through AI Overviews, which summarize key information at the top of the search results page. These responses use large language models that gather and combine information from many websites
Ai (current version) searches the web and gives you answers without knowing if the gathered information is correct or not. So if TF poster posts an incorrect answer to your question then Ai repeats that incorrect answer.

It's smarter than that - it's not just regurgitating. It will look at multiple sources and pick the more reliable source. Sometimes.

I'll grant you that if there's only a single source relating to your specific question, and that source is wrong, you're likely to get the wrong answer.

But I doubt that Ai deep dives into online manuals, not yet anyway.

It will absolutely dive into online manuals - that'd be part of the training data for sure, and I've had AI source online manuals as a citation. That's probably why the Victron answers are so good.

I think where it excels is when there is lots of online material to sort through. A lot of our trawler questions are so esoteric, this forum may be the only source on the entire internet so you might as well just look here. But if you're looking for guidance on an off-grid PV system, there are thousands of relevant articles, enough for the LLMs to sink their teeth into it and get you a decent answer.

I've found it's very good at diagnosing car problems as well.

 

[Mac2]

@Mac2 Please expand on this as you replied to my post that said Ai will use internet available relevant info to answer your query. Of course if the manual was used/posted for a previous question then you would also get that correct answer. But I doubt that Ai deep dives into online manuals, not yet anyway.

Post 16. It was quoting formulas from the Victron manual as a means for the conclusion. I did a quick query and below is an example. Sometimes it will show the formula from the Victron manual along with the answer.

 

[Mac2]

And this.

 

[Frosty]

Maybe this is nuts, but for a Multiplus setting question, one could look in the Victron product manual. Or maybe AI has Victron info that Victron themselves do not have (?)

I often find that when perusing the manual to find a specific thing, I'll glean a few other tips that I had either forgotten or thought did not apply to me when I originally installed the item.

I feel like if AI gave me the answer (it won't because I don't look there, but if I did) that then I would have to go to the Victron manual to verify it anyway, so it seems like double work.

@Mac2 I am still curious what the parameters were for AI to say you must have a second solar controller. I mean, it may very well be correct, but I'm curious. Because all "overpaneling" is not bad overpaneling. It may be. Depends on various factors. You can have as many solar controllers as you want to, obviously. I have two on the boat when technically I could have had only one. But that's a choice not because I absolutely needed two. The AI answer you got just made me wonder. I have not used AI, but I never see people posting where it sounded hesitant, or like it wasn't sure. All answers seem to be stated with equal confidence?

 

[Mac2]

AI can do it in seconds. It would take me an hour to just find my manual let alone read it. Regardless, as others have stated, it comes down to how accurate the information is. It’s good to know I should confirm AI results if possible.

 

[Mac2]

@Mac2 I am still curious what the parameters were for AI to say you must have a second solar controller. I mean, it may very well be correct, but I'm curious. Because all "overpaneling" is not bad overpaneling. It may be. Depends on various factors. You can have as many solar controllers as you want to, obviously. I have two on the boat when technically I could have had only one. But that's a choice not because I absolutely needed two. The AI answer you got just made me wonder. I have not used AI, but I never see people posting where it sounded hesitant, or like it wasn't sure. All answers seem to be stated with equal confidence?

I screwed up. I bought the panels, wires, mmpt controllers 3-4 years ago. I never hooked them up due to included power at the dock along with other priority projects. I wired up the mppt controllers (another post) and started to confirm the numbers when I realized my 4 455 watt panels- 2 pairs in parallel ) were 48 volts. I already had them wired to two 100/30 mppt controllers. If they were 100/50, it would have worked. Due to potential for shadowing, I opted for two more 100/30s. All confidence shot at this point, I turned to AI (someone on the forum had just mentioned AI). All the answers were lining up, along with upsizing some of my wire and fuses. All answers were “best” practices-said in a way that I was a dumbass if I did it any other way. This reasonated with me as Ive often heard this from my dad growing up.

 

[Frosty]

.... I realized my 4 455 watt panels- 2 pairs in parallel ) were 48 volts. I already had them wired to two 100/30 mppt controllers. If they were 100/50, it would have worked.

Okay so I'm just thinking out loud about stuff you already know now.

You (originally) had two 900-watt "banks" of parallel wired panels at 48 volts. And each bank was slotted to be used with a 100/30 controller. The "100" stands for volts, so you were fine there with 48 volts, even in very cold weather when the voltage can go up a bit.

The 30 is amps. Your 900 watts would be around 54 amps into a 12-volt system. However if they are mounted flat (not constantly tilted and angled to the sun position), then I'd guess around 36-40 amps. I would also have gone to a pair of 100/50 with keeping two banks of panels in that case. Although in the back of my mind (meaning I think I used to know but have forgotten, heh), some of the larger controllers have some nicer features, so unless shading is a factor I might have gone with one larger controller (but kept the series parallel as I don't have any great urge to go above 48 volts). But I don't even know if the rest of your system could have taken advantage of those extra features (thinking they come into play once you have a Cerbo etc.).

One additional note (perhaps AI already mentioned this) is to look at any of your breakers/switches or what have you that are in the line before (on the sky side) of your controller, to be sure they can handle the highest voltage you could expect. Note that in cold weather the voltage will go up higher than even the rated Open Circuit voltage. I would have run a calculation for yours but I don't know all your specs. This one is decent though:

MidNite Solar - Classic Sizing Tool.

MidNite Solar is the industry leader and manufacture of quality Renewable Energy System electrical components and E-Panels.

www.midnitesolar.com

Or if you want to post your panel specs, I could run the calc. Or maybe AI already did this for you.

Example:
My two 100 watt panels wired in series only have a VMP voltage of 17.6, so that's 35.2 volts added together. Open Circuit voltage is 21.6 (so 43.2v added together). However at 0ºF the voltage could reach 49.2 volts (VMP could reach 41.8 volts) so I have to take that into account. (You can choose your theoretical lowest temperature in the calculator.)

They tend to reach the highest voltage first thing in the morning. When it's quite cold but the sun is just coming up.

**********

Just as a separate note of interest, right now (RV) I have 200 watts of panels (two 100 watt in series) on my roof, mounted flat. Then I have another 200 watts of panels (same specs) but sitting on the ground where they are tilted to the sun (and it's winter, so that matters more). I'd say on average the flat panels only give about 1/2 of the tilted ones at most (varies of course). It's kind of fun that the two panel banks are the same (and I have each on its own controller) so I can compare at any given moment to see how much the flat panels and the tilted panels differ. For example today (sunny) the flat bank provided 110wh by the time the battery bank was full. The tilted-to-the-sun bank provided 220wh. They are coordinated in a Victron Smart Network so both worked together. This shows how if a panel array is always going to be flat, they will produce much more in July than in winter.

 

[Mac2]

Frosty: Thanks for the info. Should have mentioned I have a 24 volt house bank. Solar panels lead to a power cutoff (breaker box) then to a mppts then to Lynx distributor. 40 amp fuses for 100/30s and 25 amp fuses for the 2 75/15 mppts (4 240 watt 24 volt panels-2 each in parallel). I have a one way run of 50 feet to my house bank. I have 4/0 cable in the bilge from an unused bilge bank of house batteries. If I tap into that it will half the 3/0 cable AI says will work. The only issue I thought I had was an inverter that is wired into the old bilge bank 4/0 cable. I thought this might give bad readings to the inverter, but AI says it is ok if all wires go to the same ground/bus, which they do. Any confirmation would be great. It is a backup inverter, so I can isolate it if necessary. The other option is to just bypass this section, but hard to do since everything is ready to go with the existing larger (better) cable. Any advice would be appreciated.