How important is redundancy for a coastal cruiser?

[Jklotz]

How much redundancy do you think is necessary for a coastal cruiser? Chart plotters seem pretty easy. Get an Ipad. But twins, wing engine, isolated fuel tank, dual water pumps, backup generator, etc. If you are in the ICW, you can call a tow service. But what about wintering in the Bahamas, for instance? Some of those waters seem a bit isolated. Beyond a well maintained boat, which is a prerequisite IMHO, what systems do you think need redundancy?

 

[tiltrider1]

Kind of a personal question. I live on the West Coast, getting a tow is not so easy. I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best. My worst and best might not be the same as the next guy.

Do I have a backup generator? No. Do I carry spare generator fuel pump, heat exchanger, raw water impeller, belts, hoses, filters and fluids? Yes.

 

[mvweebles]

Kind of a personal question. I like to plan for the worst and hope for the best.

This is a twin vs single discussion. And it is indeed a personal decision for two reasons: risk assessment vs ability to mitigate will vary widely for each operator.

For most people, risk assessment consists of developing a laundry list of what-ifs and try to tick as many of the boxes as they can (or can afford). Much of my career was in IT consulting. Data Center disaster planning was a common topic and had a very structured approach to risk assessment. 99% uptime sounds pretty good until you do the math: 3-1/2 days of annual outage meets the uptime objective but is unacceptable service delivery.

The problem with the laundry list approach is it doesn't really prioritize fault scenarios. So you do an Impact vs Probability assessment to prioritize risk and focus remediation resources. The core "disaster" of the single vs twin debate is that a well-maintained engine having no other symptoms suddenly stops operating in a manner that doesn't affect a standby engine a few feet away from it. That's an extremely rare occurrence. Failure of a damper plate or high pressure injector line comes to mind (both fairly easily repaired, BTW).

For the most part, total failures exhibit markers long before shut down. For example, theres a very active thread about a 58-foot Hatteras that totally trashed one of the engines - several pistons, rings, camshaft, and related pieces all in bits. Oil in the coolant and coolant in the oil. But you know what? The engine still ran and he limped into the next harbor!!! Even with a second engine running as expected, the cruise was terminated for repairs. BTW - an oil analysis would have indicated a major problem long before the engine blew.

One TF member - @Hippocampus - was very active until he recently sold his trawler for a 25-foot fishing boat. A retired surgeon, he was extremely risk averse and endlessly identified risks and mitigated them. He'd have a heart attack if he were in my boat as I'm much more sanguine about risk. My thinking is risk is part of the equation - either accept it or don't go.

As far as spare generator, sounds odd but quite a few boats cannot be reasonably or comfortably operated without AC power. Failure of a generator means no battery charger which means the electronically controlled engines shut down - my hunch is this is much more common than ECU failure. Those boats should consider a spare generator.

So yea, indeed personal. Both in how you approach risk and your stomach/wallet for mitigation.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Old and wise former member FF (couldn't argue with his logic sometimes) often reminded us that untested spares were no guarantee you were going to fix something.

He thought that one should buy a new spare, replace the old item...then keep the working item as the spare. That way you know the new item fit and performed to spec. You at that point also had the tools and knowledge on how to perform the swap in the future. Just don't let that vital tool disappear into the bilge at the worst time.

This isn't any answer to the cosmic question of what the best/right boat or configuration is for any kind of boating, but is worth pondering while trying to fall asleep at night. Good argument for the happy hour table of old salts too.

My only input would be to the OP is the definition of remoteness.... money can resolve that issue in many places....but not all. Places like the Bahamas out islands or Northwest passage can be serviced if willing to spend the money for delivery and accept the waiting time involved....places like Patagonia or coastal Antarctica maybe aren't impossible, but the wait and final bill may be scary.

 

[O C Diver]

Someone on here had a signature that said, "I only need one engine that works, that's why I have two."

Not said to the above member, but in my opinion, most twins aren't cared for as well as the boater with only one. So if your idea of preventative maintenance is fixing what's broken, then buy a boat with twin engines, separate fuel tanks and separate electrical systems.

The other point I would raise is the Lindbergh axiom. Charles Lindbergh flew across the Atlantic Ocean in a single engine airplane, one time. The risk of engine failure was very small based on the amount time and the number of times he did it. Consider how much remote cruising (by percentage) you will actually do. Then consider the percentage of time that an engine failure would be catastrophic or fatal. Then decide if the sum is an acceptable risk.

In 6,000 engine hours of cruising I had one failure that I couldn't fix (engine computer) requiring a tow. This was not a problem as far as safety, only an inconvenience. I considered my at risk time less than 5% of the time. Crossing an ocean would be much higher and I would only consider twins.

Ted

 

[Bmarler]

I think for semi-remote cruising, where resources are sort of available, but inconvenient, also assuming a well maintained vessel, I would prioritize power and water. Multiple methods of keeping the batteries charged, like alternator, solar, and inverter charging from the genset. Water, from a water maker, having service parts on hand, and backup for the pump system for domestic supply.

 

[Jklotz]

Interesting responses and some very good points made. Although not life critical, I sure like the idea of having 2 heads.

 

[sunchaser]

The specific boat and cruising grounds in question are more relevant than getting bogged down in the never ending twin vs single discussion. Redundancy of all critical systems and associated spare parts also requires a capable skipper/crew with knowledge, determination and skills to address the myriad of issues that can and do arise.

 

[Dougcole]

Interesting responses and some very good points made. Although not life critical, I sure like the idea of having 2 heads.

The specific boat and cruising grounds in question are more relevant than getting bogged down in the never ending twin vs single discussion. Redundancy of all critical systems and associated spare parts also requires a capable skipper/crew with knowledge, determination and skills to address the myriad of issues that can and do arise.

I agree.

In 18 years of Bahamas cruising, for the most part going as remote as our schedule allows, the major failures on our boat have mostly been periphery things. A watermaker once, head multiple times (Vacuflush), generator three or four times, dinghy/motor multiple times. I haven't really had an issue (knock on wood) with the mains, though one motor shut down on the old boat our second year there and we limped along until I cobbled together a repair.

Honestly, the head was the biggest issue. I carry extensive parts for it and I've managed to get it fixed every time, but no head would be a trip ending event when cruising with my wife...I'm cool with using a bucket, her not so much.

A full holding tank with no means to empty it can also end a trip. And good luck finding someone over there to fix THAT.

You can get water pretty much everywhere in the Bahamas, even in the Raggeds, and literally everywhere in the US. It may not be convenient, but you can get it. I carry two empty jerry jugs just in case. A more damaging water failure than the water maker would be the fresh water pump. I carry a spare there, and I have had two of those fail.

 

[High Wire]

There's no right or wrong answer to the OPs questions. I have redundancy on GPS, and VHFs above one. I carry spares for what I believe is a normally replaceable maintenance item plus a few others. Prop, s/w pump, belts, injector, gaskets, etc. I carry fluids for one full changeout of everything, engine oil, coolant, trans, dinghy lower unit, distilled water, steering, etc. Storage space and wallet size are the common limits. I find the hard part for me is remembering WHERE everything is as hard as I try keeping everything grouped together. BTW, we are coastal cruisers and have Seatow that has come in handy owning 4 boats in 2 states. Happy New Year everyone!

 

[SteveK]

Someone on here had a signature that said, "I only need one engine that works, that's why I have two."
Ted

I resemble that remark.
one boating season was finished with one engine down as I was not going to interupt my plans.
Pre season start I changed impellers with a new looking impeller that was the spare only to have it fail within a month.
The only parts I keep are filters, oil & fuel. Being Canadian, several rolls of duct tape and haywire, and too many hose clamps with various lenghts & size hoses.
Be able to MacGiver the problem until you can get the right part.

 

[DDW]

He thought that one should buy a new spare, replace the old item...then keep the working item as the spare. That way you know the new item fit and performed to spec.

This was exactly my experience. Fuel pump failed, but I had a new one on board. I had almost given it away earlier in the cruise to someone with an identical failure, but didn't. I then discovered that the new one didn't work after a 6 hour R&R.

 

[porman]

Interesting responses and some very good points made. Although not life critical, I sure like the idea of having 2 heads.

Our boat has two heads and they are totally separate systems. Two toilets, two holding tanks. Kind of a pain when pumping out though as the ports are on opposite corners of the boat.

 

[kthoennes]

The specific boat and cruising grounds in question are more relevant than getting bogged down in the never ending twin vs single discussion. Redundancy of all critical systems and associated spare parts also requires a capable skipper/crew with knowledge, determination and skills to address the myriad of issues that can and do arise.

Yep, I agree too. For example, right now we're trapped on a 25-mile stretch of the Missouri River, so at maximum distance, we're 25 miles from our home marina -- or any marina for that matter. I have two large dock boxes of spares and parts back at the slip, but onboard we just carry the basics -- fuel filters, oil, basic tool set, hose clamps, that kind of thing. We do keep the dinghy in good order though, so if both engines die, we can anchor down the big boat and still get home or back to the marina and figure out a tow or repair plan. Cell service gets weak, but we seldom lose it entirely. We also have two large anchors, one at the bow through the windlass of course, but the other in a locker. My wife worries about getting sucked into the hydroelectric dam intakes if our engines ever died, so okay, to give her peace of mind we can throw out double anchors.

On the other hand, going up the Hudson some years ago the ground wire fell off the bus bar in the helm pod and all the electronics went dead until I figured out the problem. Suddenly being blind was very unsettling, even though we also had paper charts and I could follow the markers. Now we have a (cell-data) back-up for navigation. Crossing LI Sound, that trek made me nervous, although it probably shouldn't have, it's not that far (well, our diagonal crossing was 60 miles, so midpoint to shore was a max 30 miles or less). But we very carefully checked every fluid level and did engine inspections before we cast off that day. Two radios and our cell phone in case we got into trouble - radio at the helm, another in the salon, and a handheld/floating radio in the dinghy. Yep, all depends on your individual tolerance for risk and the general condition of your boat and the cruising grounds.

 

[JackConnick]

Well, another wise man once said; "If you had enough spares, you'd be towing a second boat"...

I thought I had enough spare last cruise, only to find out that while I had basics for the generator, I needed some relays, etc. that I didn't have. Had to deviate and make a 100 mile run to Campbell River to obtain. I also found out that Northern Lights had free maintenance classes, so a day there helped my sharpen a much longer list to take.

I have things sorted into a couple of areas and keep a detailed list of what I have and where it is on my master excel spreadsheet.

 

[slowgoesit]

Definition of "Coastal Cruising" really needs to be nailed down in the context of this post, however, assuming, say, no more than 30 miles offshore, then:

I like redundancy.

• Two heads, with two separate holding tanks
• Two ways of making the boat move, in our case, main engine, and auxiliary engine
• Two depth sounders
• Two MFD's
• Minimum of two full up anchor systems (anchor, rode, etc) We have two large anchors, one 105 lbs, one 87 lbs, and two 40 lb anchors as well, not counting small dinghy anchors, etc.
• Multiple ways of charging batteries (Solar, eng. alternator, generator, shore power)
• Multiple solar panels, with individual charge controllers
• Multiple navigation sources (paper charts, chart plotter, two tablets, two phones)
• Multiple refrigeration sources (2 freezers, ice maker, fridge)
• Backup steering
• Multiple ways of heating/cooling the interior of the boat
• Multiple bilge/dewatering devices
• Spares of game stopping parts (eng. starter, injectors, pumps, couplings, etc, etc)
• extra kitty litter and cat food . . . but that's another story. It turns out you really CAN go overboard pun intended) on some items . . .

The longer I have a boat, the more spares I carry, . . . . and 95% of them, I will probably never need . . . . but I have them, and have a way of diagnosing, and removing/replacing the broken/non functional parts. I've said this many times, but here goes again. I have used far more of our on-board spares to help other boaters out than I've ever used to repair our boat. That is the way it should be.

Now get off the computer, and get off the dock, and GO CRUISING!
Best to all in the New Year!

 

[SteveK]

No one has mentioned this, so I will

2 compasses

 

[Bob Cofer]

I am a proponent of keeping it simple. One mechanical main engine ( Isuzu 4cyl), one composting head, all systems are 12v, we keep appropriate spares on board: FW pump, RW pump, Engine water pump, injector, glow plug, fuses, wire and connectors, filters, all fluids, propellor, emergency tiller, etc. To date the only issue we have had to take care of is a raw water impeller that burned up due to sea grass intake (installed a grate on the last haul out). I do take maintenance very seriously and never defer anything.

 

[Choices]

Depends on your ability to fix things. The ICW is mostly protected waters. As such you are usually close to a marina and SeaTow.

When cruising the ICW we jettison a lot of stuff for extra refrigeration. I like ice cream rum and coke floats. We also tend to have guests more. If you hit marinas to explore you each night you really don't even need a genset.

Vacuflush repair parts are mandatory if traveling with ladies, engine parts that will stop you are both water pumps, alternator, and a belt, have two sets of all fuel filters and oils enough for two changes.

Most container ships and tankers are single screw. If you boat is well maintained, you can, with some ability, navigate anywhere with a smart phone, even better if you have two phones. Redundant electronics now days for a single helm is a waste.

Going to the Bahamas is not that big a deal as it once was. There are some support services over there, but they are expensive, as they should be. Plan ahead. Crossing the Gulf Stream should be more of a concern.

Can live without genset, vacuflush, etc. on the ICW. Enjoy exploring!

 

[Jklotz]

Definition of "Coastal Cruising" really needs to be nailed down in the context of this post, however, assuming, say, no more than 30 miles offshore, then:

When I originally posted, I was thinking a bit more than 30 miles offshore. Crossing the Gulf Stream from the east coast of FL to the Bahamas, following the shortest route, is 56 nm I believe. Then there are plenty of longer hops between islands after that.

Your list is quite thoughtful. I have to wonder, however, if a lot of that would be overkill for no more than 30 miles offshore?

 

[slowgoesit]

Yep, a lot of it is a bit of an overkill for coastal, but it was what we considered a necessity for our recent trip. Check out the thread : Too many spares?!?
for more craziness regarding spares!

 

[JackConnick]

Hmmm, Vacuflush repair parts...I have two heads, one tank.

I have a couple sets of bowl seals, duckbill valves, a ball and shaft. What else should I carry?

 

[ABfish]

The OP seems to be considering redundancy as regards to safety. Lots of the responses concern the stuff that causes you to cancel or end a trip, though safety may not be an issue.

I fished offshore for 30 years in small boats, often with a single engine, so I'm not that worked up about running my 48 ft. boat 30 to 50 miles offshore. Not that I'm blasé about safety, but towing services are available everywhere I boat, and I maintain my boat by the book. And I've got a dingy, plenty of water and shade, an EPIRB and a PLB and lots of other stuff that we never carried on small fishing boats.

I might buy a life raft if I spent more time offshore. The dinghy would suffice if I could get it off the boat soon enough.

I do spend a fair amount of time thinking about the type of redundancy that provides "trip insurance", such as a spare freshwater pump or an extra set of fuel filters or a second head.

Three items that I have no backup for: a/c raw water pump, generator, and power steering (it's driven off the starboard engine only).

 

[Bmarler]

Hmmm, Vacuflush repair parts...I have two heads, one tank.

I have a couple sets of bowl seals, duckbill valves, a ball and shaft. What else should I carry?

Pump bellows.

 

[Jklotz]

The OP seems to be considering redundancy as regards to safety. Lots of the responses concern the stuff that causes you to cancel or end a trip, though safety may not be an issue.

Well, yes, safety primarily, although I suppose there is some grey area there. Once somebody goes to the expense, time and effort required to get out to the Abacos, for instance, being forced to abandon the trip and call for rescue due to equipment failure that could have been prevented by spares or redundancy certainly applies. But safety, of course, would be the primary concern.

 

[luna]

As far as spare generator, sounds odd but quite a few boats cannot be reasonably or comfortably operated without AC power. Failure of a generator means no battery charger which means the electronically controlled engines shut down - my hunch is this is much more common than ECU failure. Those boats should consider a spare generator.

So yea, indeed personal. Both in how you approach risk and your stomach/wallet for mitigation.

Peter

Now that I find odd.

I can understand that a genset is needed while underway for A/C, hot water, Duck à l'Orange, Starlink/Disney to your 60" screen, etc.

However, you would think that the electronically controlled engine(s) would be fitted with alternator(s) so that they can at least sustain themselves!

 

[DieselTrawlerGuy]

I agree with previous posts regarding replacing items such a raw water pumps with new units but then keeping the old unit (and a couple new impellers) as a spare.

For me personally, I think that for anything you can actually fix yourself you should make sure you a) have the proper tools aboard to do the job, and b) of course the spare parts such as impellers, filters, oil changes, maybe a spare injector, belts, a spare starter, spare alternator, spare anti-freeze, spare toilet parts, etc.

 

[Nocanvas]

I resemble that remark.
one boating season was finished with one engine down as I was not going to interupt my plans.
Pre season start I changed impellers with a new looking impeller that was the spare only to have it fail within a month.
The only parts I keep are filters, oil & fuel. Being Canadian, several rolls of duct tape and haywire, and too many hose clamps with various lenghts & size hoses.
Be able to MacGiver the problem until you can get the right part.

Duct tape is under rated !! A fellow in the Canadian waters out west said honey you drive I’m fishing. She hit a rock the boat laid over at low tide. As the tide came up the water entered the side Engine air vents and the boat sank which could have been saved had the operator used duct tape to seal/cover the vents and doors. That’s why you carry several rolls of duct tape and a tarp to slow down a hole.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I spent a career running mostly single engine boats in remote areas and coastal work. I learned I can't carry spares for everything, there isn't enough room aboard. Occasionally, rarely, something will come up I can't deal with that can't be fixed without a ship yard. For any boat I carry spares to cover expected wear and common failures. Filters, belts, impellers, fuses, lubes. A decent selection of electrical supplies and tools. Also supplies and equipment for emergency repairs. Some lumber and plywood, epoxy and glass cloth and a tarp to patch holes in the bottom. Wood plugs for through hull failure. Hose clamps, lengths of hose without wire reinforcement and rescue tape will cobble up a patch on any hose that is split or leaking. Various kinds of tape. Fast setting sealant. Splash Zone.

Next I think about what are time critical failures? How do I deal with that? In my retired recreational life in the areas we cruise getting washed up on rocks after loosing power or steering is a serious concern. I carry redundant ground tackle. Big enough to do the job, light enough to deploy without power. Line for getting towed.

Now I move on to show stoppers in terms of life support. The head or heads are one. When I worked for a living if the head quit and I couldn't get it going again we'd use a bucket. There is no way my sweetie is going to put up with that. We have two with spares. Water is another, a spare pump doesn't take a lot of room.

I think about redundancy. Charging sources, electronic nav gear, communications are top priority.

More important than carrying all the spares I can think of is being prepared to handle what comes up. I don't know diddly about going to the Abacos. I cruise Washington State, BC and Ak. I can be in remote areas with little to no immediate support, I will cross open stretches of water. I'm ready ahead of time to facilitate getting the help I need. Satellite comms, good relationships with good parts houses and people shore side I can trust. Everything is just a phone call and a float plane away if I need something I don't have aboard. All of the phone numbers I need to deal with it. My trusted shore side person, parts houses, float plane operators etc. 2 or 3 days at anchor in a beautiful place while I wait for the part and get it in is not such a bad thing.

Might I have to get towed? With twins, not likely but it could happen. I have excellent towing coverage.

If I were like some here who cruise central and south America or other truly remote areas I would load up with more spares. But I don't, so I won't.

I encourage all reading this to think beyond mechanical and systems failures. Two that can be truly life threatening and require immediate action are fire and serious medical problems. A cruising couple can't really deal with a serious fire. A cruising couple with one down due to medical problems leaves the other single handed.

 

[Shrew]

There really 3 classes of vessel based, essentially, on range.

Coastal Cruiser
Blue Water: Goes off-shore
Passage Maker: Crosses oceans

A Wing engine is really only relevant in a passage maker. Twins are effective if you're too impatient or too far for a tow. Coastal cruising on a single is fine, but as stated, this is a Single Vs Twin debate.

I carry a Honda 2K generator as a back-up.

We also have these redundant items:
Spare Butane Stove
stove top percolator for coffee