Hit a log lately?

[TBill36]

Since the original post asked the following question and comment,

"Did your trip get cut short (damage) due to having a single, or could you continue because you had twins? This chat is for the new/dreamer boaters shopping for a boat.

My response is that carrying spare props and a puller mitigates 90% of the need to cancel the trip. You don't have to return home to change them. Single or twin doesn't matter. I've changed a 70 lbs. prop in a remote location but could have easily traveled long distances at slow speed. If you don't have the ability to change them yourself, there are divers and yards that can be accessed in just about anywhere, but very remote areas.

 

[tiltrider1]

True, twice as many failure points on neglected engines. Aviation has learned that twin engine aircraft can fly with a single engine failure, provided that strict attention to following maintenance protocols is followed.

Ted

The word “neglected” doesn’t belong in your statement.

 

[Mac2]

Since the original post asked the following question and comment,

"Did your trip get cut short (damage) due to having a single, or could you continue because you had twins? This chat is for the new/dreamer boaters shopping for a boat.

My response is that carrying spare props and a puller mitigates 90% of the need to cancel the trip. You don't have to return home to change them. Single or twin doesn't matter. I've changed a 70 lbs. prop in a remote location but could have easily traveled long distances at slow speed. If you don't have the ability to change them yourself, there are divers and yards that can be accessed in just about anywhere, but very remote areas.

To clarify, did this involve having scuba gear?

 

[O C Diver]

The word “neglected” doesn’t belong in your statement.

Matter of opinion.

Ted

 

[TBill36]

To clarify, did this involve having scuba gear?

No. But I free dive frequently and it was in clear warm water. However, my comment was intended to make the OP aware that you don't need to go home. But you do need to have the spare props and puller. Home really has nothing to do with it. We all seem to fixate on getting there to be in our comfort zone. Single vs twin has nothing to do with it as far as running gear damage. You are going to limp or get towed to the closest facility and get it taken care of. I'm sure someone can come up with a scenario where single running gear will leave you dead in the water before twins, but that's going to be a very rare occurrence.

 

[tiltrider1]

Matter of opinion.

Ted

True. Starting from the point of view that all twins are neglected is pretty hard to defend. The reality is that most boats in the US use a single outboard engine on a lake. So by default we can assume that all those singles are not neglected but duals are.

 

[Mako]

Can you comment on your experiences of grounding/hitting something and weather you had damage (cost of repairs), or no damage.

In Puget I had hit logs but I was traveling at 8.25kts and suffered no damage. Steel hull.

Did your trip get cut short (damage) due to having a single, or could you continue because you had twins?

Twins were unprotected but my keel extended a couple inches below the prop tips.

IMO, if traveling in displacement, it's doubtful a log strike will require a tow home. Traveling at planing speed is a different story.

I agree with this. At slow speeds you're more likely to bang/kick the log out of the way.

I once hit a boat. Floating in a slightly submerged condition. I hit the flybridge. Wow that was a solid bang! Still I was lucky and did not damage anything on my boat. Ha

However at planing speeds with an outboard I've had plastic bags and kelp wrapped around my prop more times than I can count.

@Mac2 since this is oriented to newbies, my position is that I hope to never own a twin ever again. And my future plans include big, floating chunks of ice. To each his own.

 

[Mac2]

Thanks Mako. Great info. I was a little surprised at how many incidents of wrapped lines there were. Really justifies the expense of line cutters. Are you considering a nozzle to deal with ice? I wonder if a nozzle is worth the expense to deal with log strikes alone?

 

[Mako]

BTW, this single versus twin debate reminds me of an old post on the Forum. So funny, my eyes still tear when I watch this today: Twin diesels vs. single on a Mainship

 

[Mako]

Thanks Mako. Great info. I was a little surprised at how many incidents of wrapped lines there were. Really justifies the expense of line cutters. Are you considering a nozzle to deal with ice? I wonder if a nozzle is worth the expense to deal with log strikes alone?

I've never had line cutters on my boat and am curious about how valuable people think they are, especially on a single.

I've thought about the Kort nozzle. I'm open, but more heavily leaning towards not having one. The negatives for a pleasure craft outweigh the positives. Opposite that for a tug or trawler of course. I asked our old TF friend Simi his opinion for a newbuild, since he had one, and he said he wouldn't remove his but he wouldn't pay money to install one.

Edit: The arguments about twin/single, nozzles, etc. all go back to each person's risk tolerance. Boating has risks and we all have our own opinions on how much we're willing to absorb.

 

[Jeff F]

I've never had line cutters on my boat and am curious about how valuable people think they are, especially on a single.

I put a lot of value on my Shaft Shark, and am quite certain it's saved me at least once from being disabled.

 

[slowgoesit]

Thanks for that detailed report. Did that boat have a full keel (extending under the prop?

yup, and even had a 4" wide x 3/4" thick bronze skeg extending from the keel, under the prob, and with a bearing surface for the 1.5" lower rudder support . . . and STILL took out the rudder etc.
Note: In full disclosure, the boat was new to me and had sat for 2 years in Edmonds Marina in WA State unmaintained, meaning no zincs, and a lot of the bronze suffered (more than we had realized) from electrolysis and "Dezincification", leading to a complete replacement of all below water bronze over the next few months.

 

[O C Diver]

True. Starting from the point of view that all twins are neglected is pretty hard to defend. The reality is that most boats in the US use a single outboard engine on a lake. So by default we can assume that all those singles are not neglected but duals are.

Let's backup for a minute.

From 50 years ago till now, the mechanical skill level of the average boat owner has plummeted. Most today haven't read the manual or even glanced at the recommended maintenance. The amount of boaters that could do maintenance on outboards or inboards is a small fraction. Many view two motors as easier to dock or one to bring them home. This is not to say all multi engine owners are this way, but I would guess, the vast majority. Simply put, if you've never looked at the engine manual, you have no idea what the recommended maintenance is and when to do it. Hence, maintenance neglected.

Now I'm certainly not going to tell you all single engine owners are more diligent, they're definitely not. But a larger percentage recognize (maybe through experience) they have only one and it needs to be better maintained.

Ted

 

[SteveK]

Ted, On this forum you are not talking to that vast boat owner group. Here we share what we know and newbies come to learn. Using a word like neglected here as if anyone here with twins neglects them is the problem.

 

[Jeff F]

Thanks Mako. Great info. I was a little surprised at how many incidents of wrapped lines there were. Really justifies the expense of line cutters.

As with many things it depends where you operate. In my travels I'd rank line/net entanglements as a higher overall danger vs debris strikes. I know of a few people who have been stopped dead from this. One of them was a twin engine boat.

ETA: most of the single engine work/fishing boats I see have cages around the prop for this reason. I've thought several times that this might be worth the extra drag.

 

[Fletcher500]

Entanglements in the prop and fuel issues are arguably the two most common ways to lose propulsion and often both of those situations will stop a twin, and single engine boat.

 

[Mac2]

O C Diver: Thanks for clarifying. Initially I was put off with the comment I don’t maintain my twin engines as well as my previous single engine. For me a more relevant statement would be I was more paranoid with my single engine, thus took ridiculous measures to make sure it kept running and had spares I don’t carry with my twins (spare prop etc). I don’t have that anxiety with my twins. I follow all maintenance for my engines. I installed a fuel polisher and an oil polisher. I can say I dont carry the spares I would if I had a single. I consider the second engine my “spares”.

 

[O C Diver]

Ted, On this forum you are not talking to that vast boat owner group. Here we share what we know and newbies come to learn. Using a word like neglected here as if anyone here with twins neglects them is the problem.

Steve, I have a simple question for you. If you haven't cleaned or atleast inspected the heat exchanger on your engine, either because you didn't know or you will get around to it later, is the engine neglected? After 4 years, If the engine overheats and possibly blows the head gasket, was the cause neglected maintenance?

I don't know if you have a problem with the "N" word , but whatever you want to call it, if you choose not to read the manual or not to follow recommendations, the "Deferred Maintenance" failure is self induced.

I would guess this topic or diagnosis is discussed a half dozen times each year on this forum. Whether you do your own maintenance or hire someone, you need to read the manual to know its importance and make sure you do it, or have it done.

Ted

 

[SeaDogAK]

A few years back, running an old Tollycraft 37 with twin engines, we hit a log going through the tide rip at Cape Mudge, coming into Campbell River BC. We were running through about a 10’ standing wave and right as we went up it, we heard the log go the whole way under the hull, thump-thump-thump. Somehow it missed the props and rudders and there was no damage. Scared the sh*t out of me, though. Losing power and/or steering at that point would have been unpleasant.

 

[Portage_Bay]

ETA: most of the single engine work/fishing boats I see have cages around the prop for this reason. I've thought several times that this might be worth the extra drag.

Fishing boats are handling nets and lines overside near the stern frequently. Often in close quarters with other boats. Many work boats are handling lines. The cages pay off for those boats. Line cutters are a better option for recreational boats that may occasionally snag a pot line.

 

[Mako]

"Now I'm certainly not going to tell you all single engine owners are more diligent, they're definitely not. But a larger percentage recognize (maybe through experience) they have only one and it needs to be better maintained."
Might be human nature, but I can tell you that when my boat has twins I'm a bit more relaxed. When it is single powered (even an outboard) I am absolutely paranoid about every little bit of it.

 

[fryedaze]

Twins, unprotected props, 9 mph cruising speed. Prop strikes with repairs: Log in Erie canal lock. Reduced speed to marina for haulout. 2018 Okeechobee alligator strike, thumb size divot. Vibs tolerable to haulout. 2025 alligator strike Okeechobee. Vib annoyed me by Georgia for prop repair in Brunswick. Prop was out but not visible. In all cases we could have motored on one engine to get repairs.
Single engine runs to the dock:
Stop solenoid failure twice ( after that I got religion on real Cummins OEM parts instead of knock offs).
Raw water pump seal failure.
Twins will save you a tow.

 

[rslifkin]

Steve, I have a simple question for you. If you haven't cleaned or atleast inspected the heat exchanger on your engine, either because you didn't know or you will get around to it later, is the engine neglected? After 4 years, If the engine overheats and possibly blows the head gasket, was the cause neglected maintenance?

I agree that would be caused by neglect if the overheat were caused by a gunked up heat exchanger. However, there are multiple layers of neglect. Not having cleaned or physically inspected the heat exchanger isn't ideal, but not necessarily a big deal in the absence of any indication of a concern (no external leaks, no coolant loss, normal temperatures and water flow, etc.).

The big failure would have been the failure to notice the upward trend in temperature and go looking for a reason why it was happening. I don't necessarily clean heat exchangers on a time basis, I do it based on the need (as some engines have more excess cooling capacity than others). Periodically we run the boat at our max continuous cruise speed. If the engine coolant temp is starting to creep up a couple of degrees from what is normal for that speed and we're not in unusually hot seawater, then it's time to clean and check out the cooling system. If temps under that load are normal, or I do an occasional WOT test and the temps don't start climbing, then the system is providing adequate cooling capacity and I'm not worried about whether the heat exchanger is spotless.

 

[O C Diver]

I agree that would be caused by neglect if the overheat were caused by a gunked up heat exchanger. However, there are multiple layers of neglect. Not having cleaned or physically inspected the heat exchanger isn't ideal, but not necessarily a big deal in the absence of any indication of a concern (no external leaks, no coolant loss, normal temperatures and water flow, etc.).

The big failure would have been the failure to notice the upward trend in temperature and go looking for a reason why it was happening. I don't necessarily clean heat exchangers on a time basis, I do it based on the need (as some engines have more excess cooling capacity than others). Periodically we run the boat at our max continuous cruise speed. If the engine coolant temp is starting to creep up a couple of degrees from what is normal for that speed and we're not in unusually hot seawater, then it's time to clean and check out the cooling system. If temps under that load are normal, or I do an occasional WOT test and the temps don't start climbing, then the system is providing adequate cooling capacity and I'm not worried about whether the heat exchanger is spotless.

Simply, you have a method of determining when to clean. That you either had training, experience, or read the manual is the point.

My only comment on your technique is that there are times when you need to get the hell out of the way. When you go WOT, you're probably more focused on the problem you're getting away from. Hence, not focused on the temperature gauge.

To me, this is like worn brakes in a car, not a problem for normal driving. Then the truck runs the red light and you wish your brakes were new.

Ted

 

[rslifkin]

My only comment on your technique is that there are times when you need to get the hell out of the way. When you go WOT, you're probably more focused on the problem you're getting away from. Hence, not focused on the temperature gauge.

That's why it's important to occasionally push things a bit to make sure it's all behaving, rather than only ever running at normal cruise speed. In most cases, if you can run at max continuous with normal temps, it's unlikely that the system is dirty enough to give you more than "a little warm" at WOT.

Realistically though, I can't think of a time I've ever even given a thought to going to WOT as more than a test. Max continuous on our engines will give us about 18 kts, WOT is about 25 kts. I can't think of a situation where 18 kts isn't sufficient to "get out of dodge". And even situations where that is required are rare and usually avoidable.

 

[Jeff F]

Fishing boats are handling nets and lines overside near the stern frequently. Often in close quarters with other boats. Many work boats are handling lines. The cages pay off for those boats. Line cutters are a better option for recreational boats that may occasionally snag a pot line.

Yeah, no disagreement.

I'm not suggesting it as a universal must-have, but it's interesting to see various defences against real-world risks. The boat pictured has both a cage and a cutter, which presumably offers more protection than one or the other on its own. Whether that additional protection is warranted is up to individual risk tolerance and operating environment, and speed/efficiency trade-offs. If I had a boat with a well done cage I suspect I'd keep it. That reflects my own particular aversion to entanglements.

 

[Mac2]

Whether that additional protection is warranted is up to individual risk tolerance and operating environment

Exactly. This was my intent for this chat. It gives new boaters the real world experiences to make their own decisions on what type of boat to get and/or how to set it up, and how to prepare for the inevitable debris strike or line wrap.

 

[sjisailor]

In 8 years of boating we had one log strike that did damage. That was a previous 30' boat with single inboard, no keel under the prop, and happened in the notorious Swinomish Channel.

We were southbound past La Conner going maybe 7 kts and suddenly came upon a huge mass of floating logs. Dozens if not hundreds.

I slowed to idle speed, barely making way to float between and avoid as best I could. They bounced off the hull, until ...

After passing 95% of them, I heard a loud *thunk* from something I hadn't seen (and didn't see behind us). Then the prop sounded funny.

We made it home at reduced speed and had a haul out soon after. Sure enough, prop was bent but repairable. After getting it straightened, it worked perfectly.

The morals of the story for me are that you won't see everything, go slow, and be very wary of the Swinomish channel.

(BTW in no way does it suggest twin props to me; there are many other factors besides this one. However it does make me happy with a larger keel both forward and under the prop, as we have on the new boat!)

 

[Mac2]

(BTW in no way does it suggest twin props to me; there are many other factors besides this one. However it does make me happy with a larger keel both forward and under the prop, as we have on the new boat!)

I agree. You are just pointing out the facts. For those not familiar with the Swinomish Channel, it is very narrow with sharp turns. You have to be wary of the shallows and boat traffic, including barges, appearing suddenly around a corner. You were in a worst case scenario that you had no control over. You did everything right yet damage was still done. Where you boat makes a big difference in the boat you choose. The first year pods came out, I heard two seperate Mayday calls for pods that got ripped off the boat (12 hour trip to the San Juans). Apparently they didn’t shear off without damaging the hull.

 

[tiltrider1]

I love pods! I also love to hate pods.