Head2Head - 2010 Selene 47 vs. 2010 American Tug 49 Limited - what would you choose for Great Loop/Coastal/Bahamas?

[l00smarble]

I am shopping. Decided to pass on an older Fleming 55 that I could afford to buy but maybe I did not want to afford to own. Have two other good candidates I'm looking at.

The Selene is the first hull of the "new generation" 47/49 with the deeper/roomier hull and integrated swim platform/"cruiser stern" and longer waterline. The AT is a limited production stretched version of their 485.

Both boats have flybridge, stabilizers, bow and stern thrusters, 2 stateroom, 2 heads, decent tender, Steelhead crane, watermaker, fuel polishing, etc. Electronics packages are similar. Both have a docking remote control. Feature by feature they are pretty comparable.

The AT has a better mid-Master stateroom where Selene has forward master. Heads and galleys similar enough.

The AT has Volvo D9 575hp and is semi-displacement so can crank up the speed if necessary.
The Selene has Cummins QSL9 330hp and is full-displacement.

AT has a MASSIVE boat deck for extra toys etc but flybridge helm area is small and seems just for piloting. Selene has more of a full beam sky lounge with wet bar, grill. AT access to flybridge from PH seems like an afterthought with a tiny swinging door you have to turn sideways to go through and with huge head banging potential. The Selene has a normal sized staircase with door/hatch opening for easy access to flybridge.

Selene has a full factory hard top option which is an excellent place for solar. AT has stainless arch and canvas with motorized folding. Covered area on AT is half of what is covered on Selene. Both can be made to go under the bridges of the Loop.

Selene has at least 5.5ft draft where AT is more like 5ft I think.

Selene has full walk around side decks "inside" the boat with Portugese bridge. AT has narrow side decks where you walk "on top" of the boat behind a stainless rail.

Woodwork is better in the Selene. Hardware and fit/finish nicer. Lighting inside cabinets and other small details is nicer.

AT has a dedicated dinette table/booth beside galley. Selene has a better table in the pilothouse.

AT has a helm chair, Selene does not.

Selene has teak/holly sole throughough. AT has carpet in Salon and stateooms (not my preference.)

Selene has varnished cap rails, AT has no exterior teak to maintain.

Price: AT asking about $100K more.

Thoughts? (note that photo of Selene is from when she was new. Now has radar and sat domes but domes can be stripped and radar can be hinged)

 

[DDW]

The exterior varnished teak would be disqualifying for me, don't care what boat is underneath them.

Other than that I don't think you can go very far wrong with either of them, though in my mind both are too big for the loop.

 

[sjisailor]

Although I'm west coast and judging from afar, the Loop and Bahamas seem like pretty different missions to me. For instance, I wonder about stabilizers for passages. Not that you can't do both in either boat but that the balance between those missions could inform the prioritization.

Beyond that, I'd say both seem great. IMO a big factor is which one "speaks" to you and makes you smile and are excited to walk down the pier and see her!

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. 100. I am completely unfamiliar with either boat BUT, engine space access AND room to work would be pretty well at the top of my "must have" list(s).

 

[BruceK]

Writing down the plus and minus features of each boat is an excellent approach, to see at a glance the comparative features. Give weight to the features more important to you. Try ading up the plus and minus features, but apply weighting.
Is either acceptable, is it choosing the better candidate?
As I read the analysis,I think you might be tending towards the Selene. Painting the teak could resolve the varnish issue.
For present purposes, condition is not the issue, but looms large when you get to deciding. I`d prefer the Cummins to the Volvo.

 

[Jklotz]

Personally, I'd prefer Cummins over Volvo's. That being said, the shallower draft will be a plus for both the loop and the Bahamas. You didn't mention, are they both singles? Do either have a "get home" option?

 

[Jaep]

Selene, because it does not have a Volvo. Do your research. Cummins are proven reliability.

 

[Dougcole]

Volvos are a big negative. Especially if you ever plan to resell the boat.

 

[l00smarble]

Personally, I'd prefer Cummins over Volvo's. That being said, the shallower draft will be a plus for both the loop and the Bahamas. You didn't mention, are they both singles? Do either have a "get home" option?

Both singles and both no get home option

 

[ranger58sb]

Were it me, I might keep looking... with features from these in mind.

Mid-stateroom, if with a fully walk-around household height queen or larger, my preference. Bow master fine maybe, but depends on how much of a flying leap it takes to get on and off the mattress. (Especially given "old folks" nighttime routine.)

I'd prefer Cummins to Volvo. Can't say as QSL 9s are all that common though. Perhaps more in commercial vessels?

I'd prefer at least semi-planing to full displacement. I can see where the latter would be attractive, though, especially for fuel economy along the G Loop.

No helm chair? Could one be added?

Varnished caprails? Maybe I could live with that since it's at least limited, not all the way around the boat... but not my favorite.

Hardtop my preference (and our flybridge is fully enclosed with heat/AC) Given a lower pilothouse, maybe I could live with a bimini again. OTOH, the hartdop also solves problems with snow loads during winter...

Better, protected side decks a plus.

I guess if these were the only two boats left in the world, I might tend lightly toward the Selene.

But... then again I might find myself regretting parts of that choice afterwards...

-Chris

 

[l00smarble]

The exterior varnished teak would be disqualifying for me, don't care what boat is underneath them.

Other than that I don't think you can go very far wrong with either of them, though in my mind both are too big for the loop.

I understand the sentiment about the teak/varnish. I think I can live with it since it's cap rail only. At the moment 90% of it isn't very good condition but the ends/seams with a canvas wasn't continuous it's completely failed. It will need to be redone.

 

[Jklotz]

That Selene is, to my eyes, a great looking boat.

 

[l00smarble]

Writing down the plus and minus features of each boat is an excellent approach, to see at a glance the comparative features. Give weight to the features more important to you. Try ading up the plus and minus features, but apply weighting.
Is either acceptable, is it choosing the better candidate?
As I read the analysis,I think you might be tending towards the Selene. Painting the teak could resolve the varnish issue.
For present purposes, condition is not the issue, but looms large when you get to deciding. I`d prefer the Cummins to the Volvo.

Have been working on this exact thing. A weighted pros and cons comparison.

I think you are right that I am leaning towards the Selene and a serious potential benefit of this choice that I did not bring up in the comparison is that the Selene deal would be between me and seller with no broker involved so HUGE savings that can be shared between buyer and seller. (Yes I understand I still need all the professional help for surveys, title search, documentation, taxes/forms etc but you can engage a company to help for a fee.)

 

[l00smarble]

Selene, because it does not have a Volvo. Do your research. Cummins are proven reliability.

Yes I prefer the Cummins. I don't consider the Volvo to be a complete deal breaker but yes the Cummins is better.

 

[l00smarble]

Volvos are a big negative. Especially if you ever plan to resell the boat.

The AT is theoretically very desirable. AT owners often stay with the brand and move up in models. People love the 485 and one of the drawbacks of the 485 is tiny cockpit. The 49 limited gives bigger "lounging" cockpit. But this boat has been on market over 100 days and I suspect the Volvo has something to do with that.

 

[l00smarble]

No helm chair? Could one be added?

It would be very tight to add a full size Stidd or similar. Need to measure. I'm sure it could be done but may block easy passage side to side in PH.

Maybe there are helm chair options that are smaller or can fold/slide out of way better?

Varnished caprails? Maybe I could live with that since it's at least limited, not all the way around the boat... but not my favorite.

Agree. I can live with just a half caprail I think. My wife likes to paint so maybe she will enjoy varnish work?

Hardtop my preference (and our flybridge is fully enclosed with heat/AC) Given a lower pilothouse, maybe I could live with a bimini again. OTOH, the hartdop also solves problems with snow loads during winter...

Had not thought of snow but that is a real benefit if I store the boat for winter somewhere.

 

[chanprr]

100smarble, I really like the new Selene design, she's a beauty. My Helmsman 46E has all the features I needed for extended cruising. Plus, she's a pleasure to operate and looks good on the water.

 

[Dockmaster]

If everything else is workable for you, do your homework on Volvo vs Cummins. Neither is a bad engine mind you. But if you are going to do extended cruising as you have indicated, look at availability of service and parts where you will be cruising. It is not a matter of if you have any issues, just a matter of when. Is time important? Are you willing and able to wait extended periods or leave the boat somewhere while you await engine repairs? Is cost of parts and service a concern? I think you will find the volvo to be a challenge regarding service and parts.

 

[DDW]

I understand the sentiment about the teak/varnish. I think I can live with it since it's cap rail only. At the moment 90% of it isn't very good condition but the ends/seams with a canvas wasn't continuous it's completely failed. It will need to be redone.

And redone, and redone, and redone. In low latitudes, maintenance coats every 3 months is about what it takes. Or paint it over.

 

[l00smarble]

100smarble, I really like the new Selene design, she's a beauty. My Helmsman 46E has all the features I needed for extended cruising. Plus, she's a pleasure to operate and looks good on the water.

I would look at a comparable Helmsman if I could find one for sale in my region.

 

[chanprr]

100smarble, there are none for sale in the US at the moment. You could contact Scott Helker (helmsmantrawlers.com), it might be possible to arrange an on-board showing of hull#2 which was recently delivered on the East Coast.
Or, you could take a look at the H43's which are currently listed on the Helmsman website.

 

[l00smarble]

Yes my

If everything else is workable for you, do your homework on Volvo vs Cummins. Neither is a bad engine mind you. But if you are going to do extended cruising as you have indicated, look at availability of service and parts where you will be cruising. It is not a matter of if you have any issues, just a matter of when. Is time important? Are you willing and able to wait extended periods or leave the boat somewhere while you await engine repairs? Is cost of parts and service a concern? I think you will find the volvo to be a challenge regarding service and parts.

Yes my research leads to same concerns.

Cummins more desirable to me for sure but a bit of speed could be desirable from time to time too.

In fact the Cummins QSL9 in the Selene is a serious upgrade from the more commonly used, same horsepower QSD5.9 you see in other Selenes and similar vessels. this was a great read from Tony at Seaboard on QSL9 vs QSB5.9

The 2 engines should NOT be compared in anyway shape or form.. It would be like comparing a Chevy Silverado 1500 to a HD 3500 trying to move 50 ton’s of concrete from one job site to another…

Comparisons below are based on a SEABOARD Proper set-up and maintenance from Day One.

The QSB 5.9 is a 2800 RPM 330HP engine with a realistic cruise power in a vessel like this of about 150 hp at on about 2100 RPM .. The engine is a parent bore 5.9 liter engine built to world class standards, but it’s still a 5.9 Liter engine…. Assuming 50% of the vessel operation was done at this load, and the other 50% of the hours were at less load levels , you could expect about 30,000-40,000 gallons of fuel run thru this engine before it would need rebuilding from being “wore out”..

The QSL9 is a completely different animal.. Just under 9 liters, mid-strop wet liners , 2-piece steel topped pistons, roller cams, etc etc, and develops 330 BHP at 1800 RPM and is designed to run at full power 6 out out every 12 hour duty cycle………….Assuming you need the same 150 HP in this vessel to get your “magic vessel cruise speed” ( 7-8 kts-ish), this engine will do this 24-7-365 at 1350 RPM burning the same 7.5 GPH the QSB would. Not that this really matters, this engine can make 1145 ft lbs of torque at 1400 RPM if asked to…………….Seeing 100,000 gallons of fuel burn on this engine would be a start.. I watch over a few now that are in the 150,000 gallon range and run “as new”..

IMO, the QSB 5.9 is a great engine but is really not suited for a vessel of this stature. Maybe a single engine 30-40 Ft / 20,000- 30,000 lb trawler. If you really needed 300++ HP for any length of time (like to make a 50-100 mile move) in a vessel this size, it would not be up to the task regardless of what what else you read of have been told.

You can find power curves on this web site.

Tony

 

[l00smarble]

Yes my

If everything else is workable for you, do your homework on Volvo vs Cummins. Neither is a bad engine mind you. But if you are going to do extended cruising as you have indicated, look at availability of service and parts where you will be cruising. It is not a matter of if you have any issues, just a matter of when. Is time important? Are you willing and able to wait extended periods or leave the boat somewhere while you await engine repairs? Is cost of parts and service a concern? I think you will find the volvo to be a challenge regarding service and parts.

Yes my research leads to same concerns.

Cummins more desirable to me for sure but a bit of speed could be desirable from time to time too.

In fact the Cummins QSL9 in the Selene is a serious upgrade from the more commonly used, same horsepower QSD5.9 you see in other Selenes and similar vessels. this was a great read from Tony at Seaboard on QSL9 vs QSB5.9

The 2 engines should NOT be compared in anyway shape or form.. It would be like comparing a Chevy Silverado 1500 to a HD 3500 trying to move 50 ton’s of concrete from one job site to another…

Comparisons below are based on a SEABOARD Proper set-up and maintenance from Day One.

The QSB 5.9 is a 2800 RPM 330HP engine with a realistic cruise power in a vessel like this of about 150 hp at on about 2100 RPM .. The engine is a parent bore 5.9 liter engine built to world class standards, but it’s still a 5.9 Liter engine…. Assuming 50% of the vessel operation was done at this load, and the other 50% of the hours were at less load levels , you could expect about 30,000-40,000 gallons of fuel run thru this engine before it would need rebuilding from being “wore out”..

The QSL9 is a completely different animal.. Just under 9 liters, mid-strop wet liners , 2-piece steel topped pistons, roller cams, etc etc, and develops 330 BHP at 1800 RPM and is designed to run at full power 6 out out every 12 hour duty cycle………….Assuming you need the same 150 HP in this vessel to get your “magic vessel cruise speed” ( 7-8 kts-ish), this engine will do this 24-7-365 at 1350 RPM burning the same 7.5 GPH the QSB would. Not that this really matters, this engine can make 1145 ft lbs of torque at 1400 RPM if asked to…………….Seeing 100,000 gallons of fuel burn on this engine would be a start.. I watch over a few now that are in the 150,000 gallon range and run “as new”..

IMO, the QSB 5.9 is a great engine but is really not suited for a vessel of this stature. Maybe a single engine 30-40 Ft / 20,000- 30,000 lb trawler. If you really needed 300++ HP for any length of time (like to make a 50-100 mile move) in a vessel this size, it would not be up to the task regardless of what what else you read of have been told.

You can find power curves on this web site.

Tony

 

[PNK]

Personally, between those two I would choose the Selene, but in that price range curious if you have looked at Defever's? They seem to have more room and space than most other makes, and large engine rooms, especially the 44's and 53's.

 

[MikeM]

You might consider a Kadey-Krogen 48 of a similar vintage. I know of a 2008 about to come on the market that has very similar features to those you describe above. She has twin John Deere 4045s and two Northern Lights generators (a 12KW and a 6KW).

 

[tiltrider1]

I would have a conversation with the Steve De Antonio. I'm sure he has looked at both boats from a construction standpoint.

I am no Salene expert but in my opinion the construction quality is lacking. I am not familiar with the American Tug from a construction stand point.

 

[l00smarble]

Personally, between those two I would choose the Selene, but in that price range curious if you have looked at Defever's? They seem to have more room and space than most other makes, and large engine rooms, especially the 44's and 53's.

I was able to look at one DeFever but it was not cared for very well and was generally "beat" and quickly became a non-contender. Meaning this particular example was not an optoin but I would consider another DeFever if one came up that met other criteria.

 

[l00smarble]

Personally, between those two I would choose the Selene, but in that price range curious if you have looked at Defever's? They seem to have more room and space than most other makes, and large engine rooms, especially the 44's and 53's.

Well at this point I have chosen the Selene. Survey started last week (the out of water part) and the in-water part is this week. So far, so good. Hull is dry as a bone everywhere. The surveyor thought that maybe the boat has been out of the water the entire season and dried out but it has only been hauled a couple weeks earlier.

 

[l00smarble]

You might consider a Kadey-Krogen 48 of a similar vintage. I know of a 2008 about to come on the market that has very similar features to those you describe above. She has twin John Deere 4045s and two Northern Lights generators (a 12KW and a 6KW).

These were definitely on the list. But I did not find a good example for sale that met my criteria.

 

[Srupp9271]

100smarble, I really like the new Selene design, she's a beauty. My Helmsman 46E has all the features I needed for extended cruising. Plus, she's a pleasure to operate and looks good on the water.

I 'm thinking about a Helmsman 43. Do you have any more input good or bad on your Helmsman 46. To me they look like a good deal for what you get for the money ?