Greenline DDI display upgrade

[READY]

Has anyone explored an alternative to the tiny round DDI display? Lots of useful data but very difficult to read. Mine is a new to me 2011 GL33. Is the interface just a CANBUS or similar that I can display on my soon to be installed Victron Ekrano (essentially a CerboGX integrated as 1 unit with a 7" touchscreen). I am guessing the DDI is simply reading PIDs and SPIDS off the bus and not actually actively doing or controlling anything.

My boat has the BMV-602S battery monitor and I was hoping to potentially eliminate the BMV and DDI displays and integrate that all into the Victron system.

FYI the 2x Victron 24v 180 AH batteries are still working although it seems they are reduced to perhaps 140+/- AH capacity. I am just pretty happy that these 2013 batteries are working at all. Planning to replace them but not in a rush.

 

[ScottC]

Has anyone explored an alternative to the tiny round DDI display? Lots of useful data but very difficult to read. Mine is a new to me 2011 GL33. Is the interface just a CANBUS or similar that I can display on my soon to be installed Victron Ekrano (essentially a CerboGX integrated as 1 unit with a 7" touchscreen). I am guessing the DDI is simply reading PIDs and SPIDS off the bus and not actually actively doing or controlling anything.

My boat has the BMV-602S battery monitor and I was hoping to potentially eliminate the BMV and DDI displays and integrate that all into the Victron system.

FYI the 2x Victron 24v 180 AH batteries are still working although it seems they are reduced to perhaps 140+/- AH capacity. I am just pretty happy that these 2013 batteries are working at all. Planning to replace them but not in a rush.

I don't have a direct answer to your question, but I can share a bit of related information/experience that might be helpful(?).
The DDI is connected directly to the HCU (Hybrid Control Unit - which is the big "silver box" in the bilge roughy under the port-side sofa). As you already noted, it has a lot of numbers. Of course, many of these numbers are voltages and things you would expect some Victron equipment could digest and display. But there is also a lot of what I would call hybrid-specific information here that I doubt any Victron unit could fully digest and display. For example: Mode (Generation/N/Fwd/Reverse, RPMs, Electric motor temperature (which is important), Error conditions (VERY complicated) etc. I had to have my HCU rebuilt once quite a number of years ago and they sent me a new DDI (same model) to install together with it. Not sure why, since my old DDI seemed to work, but I did what they told me to do. They also told me that if my HCU fails in the future, it will be too obsolete to rebuild. I don't know what the solution will be if I need to replace it in the future, but when and if I do, I'm sure it will come with a different -- and hopefully friendlier version of the DDI. And, I do recall them mentioning at the time that the DDI was CANBUS.

 

[READY]

Thanks Scott. I hope my HCU doesn't fail. I am just a few weeks into my ownership experience so great to have you as a resource.

I am guessing that it might be possible if the DDI is CANBus. The "LABEL" would be the PID and the data would be the SPID. I have a friend who is an expert on CANBus so perhaps he can help. Where do you go/contact for your support? I have not yet tried to reach the US team but hoping they will be helpful if/when I have a problem I cannot resolve on my own. I believe there was a local tech here in San Diego who was competent but I believe he is no longer in the region.
I really have been impressed with the "livability" of the boat and how much they have fit into the 33' boat yet not feeling cramped. With our weather we keep the stern and galley window most anytime at dock or on anchor.
I considered the ranger tug boats and while they too had a lot of features it just seemed they pushed too much and too many compromises. The Greenlines feel and look much more like a mini-yacht.
I am about to replace my Lynx Ion with a newer version with Bluetooth and add in the Ekrano. I already replaced the Victron mppt charger with their new model with BT. I wanted to get better info on the output and be able to read/program it from my phone. That seems to be working well. I am not sure I am not sure the panels are outputting at expected levels so I may locate their junction box and test each panel. They might have some age degradation but in full sun from 6 panels the most I have seen is 500 +/- Watts and that seems low. I will give them a good cleaning and see if that improves. I will share with the forum what I learn through my experience.
Ken

 

[ScottC]

Thanks Scott. I hope my HCU doesn't fail. I am just a few weeks into my ownership experience so great to have you as a resource.

I am guessing that it might be possible if the DDI is CANBus. The "LABEL" would be the PID and the data would be the SPID. I have a friend who is an expert on CANBus so perhaps he can help. Where do you go/contact for your support? I have not yet tried to reach the US team but hoping they will be helpful if/when I have a problem I cannot resolve on my own. I believe there was a local tech here in San Diego who was competent but I believe he is no longer in the region.
I really have been impressed with the "livability" of the boat and how much they have fit into the 33' boat yet not feeling cramped. With our weather we keep the stern and galley window most anytime at dock or on anchor.
I considered the ranger tug boats and while they too had a lot of features it just seemed they pushed too much and too many compromises. The Greenlines feel and look much more like a mini-yacht.
I am about to replace my Lynx Ion with a newer version with Bluetooth and add in the Ekrano. I already replaced the Victron mppt charger with their new model with BT. I wanted to get better info on the output and be able to read/program it from my phone. That seems to be working well. I am not sure I am not sure the panels are outputting at expected levels so I may locate their junction box and test each panel. They might have some age degradation but in full sun from 6 panels the most I have seen is 500 +/- Watts and that seems low. I will give them a good cleaning and see if that improves. I will share with the forum what I learn through my experience.
Ken

Congrats on your new-to-you GL33! Let the "hybrid learning" begin ;-)

At the time I needed my HCU rebuilt, I was dealing directly with the factory in Slovenia, since they did not have a distributor yet in Sweden. Since then, the original builder, SeaWay went bankrupt and was bought out by SVP Yachts, which continued and expanded the line. SVP has continued to help me out directly on some issues, even though there is now a Swedish distributor. So you might have luck with them. This is their e-mail address: aftersales@svpyachts.com
As far as your panels are concerned, if you are saying pMax of 500watts is the most you've seen, then that does sound a bit low to me. The GL33's of our era were delivered with a max-rated panel farm totaling 1300 watts. In early 2019, I had contracted the factory to come to Sweden and change my LiPo battery, which was beginning to fail and I had them replace all my solar panels at the same time. This was because the newer GL33's were being delivered with a farm rated at 1800w. I gave up on trying to fit in an extra battery, so managed to get part way there by upgrading the solar panels. The original panels were guaranteed for 10 years, but mine still had what I thought was a respectable output at the time I had them removed (sorry, I don't have any historical wattage figures to support this). So, I am doubtful that age degradation can fully explain the low wattage you are seeing. In case you haven't already discovered, you access the control box for each panel from inside the cabin ceiling. There are 7 decorative panels that are held in place by industrial-strength Velcro. Find a corner where you can pull down on one gently, but firmly and it will yield...then work your way around each panel. It's a bit tedious to get them properly aligned again when putting them back up. I would recommend starting aft and working your way forward for the re-installation. You will also find 12v light wires going to most panels. To make it easier, I cut these and installed male/female plug crimp connectors. Make sure not to get the polarity mixed up! Once you get the panels down, you will see how the panels are connected. Yours may be two banks of 3 panels in series or it may be 3 banks of 2 panels in series. A thorough cleaning, however, sounds like a good and simple strategy to start with.

 

[READY]

Great info. I am also just about to swap those ceiling halogens to LED. I was shocked no prior owner made this simple change. The halogens would make great heaters!

 

[martyc]

Welcome Ken,
There's lots to play with on this boat. Certainly enough electrical to keep you busy.
Easiest way of determining if your panels are correctly wired (and mine weren't) is to check the open cct voltage. If it's in the 60s it's wired (incorrectly) as 3 strings of 2. If it's in the 90's or 100+ then it is correctly wired as 2 strings of 3.
It's easy enough to fix when you have pulled out the ceiling panels as Scott has described.

The DDI has 4 wires, +, - and CANBUS+ and CANBUS-.
I used a CANBUS HAT on a Pi to do a packet capture a while back (the github link in the signature block is where you'll find the captures). It's definitely something I want to get back to although I have been spending a bunch of time using openplotter and the Victron OS Large image (FOSS version of the CerboGX) using SignalK and NodeRed.

2x Victron 24v 180 AH batteries ?? Sounds a bit out of the ordinary

Cheers,
Martin

 

[READY]

Thx Martin. Sounds like my solar is incorrect as it is about 64 volts input. Great info!
The drive batteries were changed out in 2013 to the Victrons.
They still seem to provide 70%+/- of original capacity which is fine for how I use them. Perhaps will replace next year. Seems I can get 300AH out of the same or similar footprint with current technology.
3 years ago the inv/charge was replaced with the Victron 5KW model.

Sounds like I can explore other options for the DDI. Not a high priority but something I might do in the future.

We are really enjoying the boat so far! Looking forward to being able to contribute on the GL threads at some point.

 

[ScottC]

Welcome Ken,
Easiest way of determining if your panels are correctly wired (and mine weren't) is to check the open cct voltage. If it's in the 60s it's wired (incorrectly) as 3 strings of 2. If it's in the 90's or 100+ then it is correctly wired as 2 strings of 3.
It's easy enough to fix when you have pulled out the ceiling panels as Scott has described.

Cheers,
Martin

Hi Martin!
I wanted to re-visit the comment you made above. Why is it that three strings of 2 is considered "incorrect"? It may well be, but I am not enough of an electrical expert to understand why. I do know that volts x amps = watts and perhaps this is why I am confused.

Mine was wired in 3 strings of 2 from the factory originally. And when the factory came to Sweden in 2019 to change my old panels out for newer, higher rated panels, they kept it this way. I now have 6x300w rated panels for a total of 1.8kw theoretically possible. My voltages tend to be, as you mention, in the 60's. I have often seen pMax of over 1400 watts. In the Med, at least, I routinely see 20-26 Amps/h going into the battery from my solar panels. Can life be much better than this?

 

[martyc]

Hi Scott,
I'm guessing that the 3 strings of two was just on the wrong side of the line with the BMU214 panels and just on the right side of the line for the BMU300 panels.

For me, the main problem was as we went under a bridge the voltage dropped low enough for the controller thought it was nighttime. Then, depending how overcast the day was, it may take 1 minute or 45 minutes to get enough sunlight to turn back on.

Cheers

Greenline Hybrid: Solar Panel, Solar Charging & Propulsion Battery Discussions

Ah, so not forced ventilation, but natural convention. That's an interesting new definition for forced convection. Maybe call it "Gentle forced voluntary natural convection":) Usual rule is allow 1"/25mm clearance under panel. Good if the panels get unimpeded air flow with bow into wind, eg...

www.trawlerforum.com

 

[ScottC]

Thank you for refreshing my memory on this! I had either forgotten about your post #58 in that thread or missed it entirely! That is an excellent reference thread for GL33 owners!!

 

[READY]

@ScottC update on my GL33 solar low output. Some shade from the radar on port forward panel. Sunny day screenshot. At 14 years old I am not shocked to see reduced output but this is quite low. As Scott mentioned it could be incorrect configuration but even so I should see some impact if any are shaded. I then tested by putting a significant shadow over each of the 6 panels. Then I tried shading one panel at a time. Did not yet take precise measurements but seemed pretty clear the two aft most panels are doing nothing. Before i pull all the panels I would like to know if they have fuses in the panels?

Next step is to test open circuit voltage on each to see if they have any output (due to blown fuse or panel failure or bad connector). Then check for configuration. My manual says they should be 2 parallel . 3 series. 1.4kW peak power. It would be nice if they provided the specs on each panel but perhaps that will be printed on the electrical boxes attached to the rear of each panel.

 

[ScottC]

You don't mention the time of day. The input would be low-ish very early in the morning or very late in the day. The closer the sun is to a 90 degree angle to the panels, the more power you will get.

Shadows can create, what I would call "disproportionate" loss. Anyway, 300w does seem very low to me, even with a bit of radar shadow on one forward panel.

In all the fussing with my panels during my panel replacement project, I did not encounter anything like a fuse in the panel boxes or cables. If yours is wired like mine, it will be 3 sets of 2-panels(in series). So your panel-covering test produced interesting results, in that the aft two panels appear to be doing nothing. It could be that this series of 2 panels is no longer connected to the charge controller. My first guess would be a erdisconnected cable or bad connection somewhere. You can check connections on one end near the charge controller. If you don't see any, you may have to remove the panel behind the port sofa (aft) or you may have to remove the refrigerator (a PITA, but not that big of a project). Overhead, you can check the connections on the other end, near the panels.

I've attached some pictures which may be of use to you. Be sure to double click on them to enlarge so you can read my annotations.

 

[ScottC]

P.S. While you have all the interior decorative roof panels down, you might want to take the opportunity to cut and mount some styrofoam (or other type) insulation in the ceiling recesses. We did this while we were in Malta and it made a big difference and helped the AC keep up on very hot days.

 

[READY]

@ScottC Thanks Scott. Great info as usual. The photos are very helpful! I will probably install the insulation as even in moderate temps here in San Diego the AC is not that effective.

BTW the testing was done just after 2pm so not at peak but I was mostly trying to determine if I had a panel ot contributing. Turns out I had two.

Probably won't drop the ceiling panels until next year. I don't really need max solar but want to eventually get it closer to expected output for it's age.

Just curious about the panel attachment. Are the panels attached from the inside? Upgrading to the newer ones is probably not something I plan to do as I imaging getting the Bisol panels to the US would be pricey. If I can get my production up to 800 watts on a good day that should be good enough.

 

[ScottC]

The panels are attached with SIKA Flex to the roof. SIKA Flex is also used to seal around the holes where the 6 "boxes" come through the roof. It's quite a labor-intensive job getting the old panels off. The crew that SVP Yachts (GL Manufacturer in Slovenia) sent to do this work covered the entire solar panel surface with masking tape. Then they took a hammer to to them. The tape held all the broken pieces together while they simply "peeled" the panels off the roof. I've seen 1450+ watts from my panel array on good days in the Med. "Good" means clear blue sky and not too hot. The performance of solar panels diminishes as the temperature rises.

I would think you would be able to get an equivalent of the BISOL panels in the US. Or perhaps even better!

 

[READY]

If I tackle this I might consider using VHB to reattach. Seems it might be easier to clean up in case of a future repair. Scary to think about taking a hammer to the panels. If you start there is no going back!

Thanks again!

 

[ScottC]

I'm not familiar with VHB. But having been in some serious squalls, I can tell you that I would not want anything less strong than SIKA Flex. The wind passes under as well as over the panels - to provide cooling, which is essential for peak efficiency.

 

[READY]

It is a 3M double sided tape used in many industrial applications. Really strong stuff as long as you prepare the surface (clean it) properly. Is used on RV's to hold solar panels. Not sure it is better but just another options. I would have no concern about it's holding power.

 

[martyc]

Ken, Taking the ceiling panels off is not that hard really. I've been exactly where you are with trying to analyse issues with individual panels by covering individual panels. Really hard when you don't know how they are wired. Suffice to say if you're open circuit voltage is in the 60's, it's wired wrong, if it's north of 80 then it's wired correctly.
This is from some of fault finding about 18 months ago and from VRM right now (5 degrees and cloudy and still the solar voltage is >85v). I ordered a kit from Amazon with about 15 mc4 connectors. Cost me about EUR30. When you do disconnect and re-wire make sure you have a tarp to cover the whole lot so the voltage is pretty close to zero. (Note: I didn't need to do anything outside)