Fuel system plumbing question

[paulga]

That will work, but why not buy a tee that's pipe thread and plumb it to the valve?

View attachment 156694

Thanks.
is the quarter turn ball valve b/t the 1/2" supply hose and the upper 3 way diverter still useful? with these changes, is it still good to have a valve there?

 

[O C Diver]

Thanks.
is the quarter turn ball valve b/t the 1/2" supply hose and the upper 3 way diverter still useful? with these changes, is it still good to have a valve there?

If you're referring to the Y valve between the Racors, you need to keep it in place along with the Y valve
On the output side to draw through one Racor and swap filter in the other.

You may be able to reuse the brass hose barb adapters. I avoid steel valves and fittings in boat fuel plumbing when possible.

Ted

 

[paulga]

If you're referring to the Y valve between the Racors, you need to keep it in place along with the Y valve
On the output side to draw through one Racor and swap filter in the other.

You may be able to reuse the brass hose barb adapters. I avoid steel valves and fittings in boat fuel plumbing when possible.

Ted

no, I mean this valve -
this valve is the current by pass for the primer pump
will it still be useful to have such a valve there?

 

[O C Diver]

no, I mean this valve -
this valve is the current by pass for the primer pump
will it still be useful to have such a valve there?

View attachment 156695

It's generally recommended that you have a fuel shutoff valve in your system. If you have supply valves on both fuel tanks that are easily accessible, I don't think you need that valve and would remove it.

Ted

 

[paulga]

It's generally recommended that you have a fuel shutoff valve in your system. If you have supply valves on both fuel tanks that are easily accessible, I don't think you need that valve and would remove it.

Ted

Thanks
with those couplers out of place, I can mount the Y and T higher, so that I can use the existing hoses on the pump rather than having to disconnect them and put on longer hoses

I feel it is tricky how to brace the Y diverter firmly when I take this T off

 

[O C Diver]

Thanks
with those couplers out of place, I can mount the Y and T higher, so that I can use the existing hoses on the pump rather than having to disconnect them and put on longer hoses

View attachment 156698

I feel it is tricky how to brace the Y diverter firmly when I take this T off

View attachment 156699

As per post #59, I would plump your priming pump after your Racors to operate them in suction as opposed to pressure.

While you could fabricate a wood block to go under the Y valve, if you remove all the clutter above, install a hose barb to pipe thread adapter, you will be fine only connecting the hose from the fuel tanks to that Y valve.

Ted

 

[paulga]

As per post #59, I would plump your priming pump after your Racors to operate them in suction as opposed to pressure.

While you could fabricate a wood block to go under the Y valve, if you remove all the clutter above, install a hose barb to pipe thread adapter, you will be fine only connecting the hose from the fuel tanks to that Y valve.

Ted

yes, I'm thinking of connecting the 1/2" supply hose directly to the upper Y. To do that i just need to disconnect the T (see photo 2 in my last post) off from the Y below it. To do this I need to brace the Y below it. As i checked, the "bull" in this Y is in hex shape. so I can hold it using a long wrench while I unscrew the T. Using a wood block, is there a more secure way to hold the Y?

the drawing in photo 1 in my last post is still the same design as that in post #59, the pump will pull from instead of pressurize the Racor

 

[KnotYet]

yes, I'm thinking of connecting the 1/2" supply hose directly to the upper Y. To do that i just need to disconnect the T (see photo 2 in my last post) off from the Y below it. To do this I need to brace the Y below it. As i checked, the "bull" in this Y is in hex shape. so I can hold it using a long wrench while I unscrew the T. Using a wood block, is there a more secure way to hold the Y?

the drawing in photo 1 in my last post is still the same design as that in post #59, the pump will pull from instead of pressurize the Racor

Just a thought: if your Racors are positioned above the lowest point of the fuel tanks,
you'll need to have a method on hand to fill dry filters with fuel, even in a seaway.
The pump as it is currently plumbed takes care of this. In fact, your system would
appear to use a momentary switch to operate the Facet pump, preventing
the pressurization of the closed up Racor filters unless that was one's intent.
So try filling the filters by hand (if you haven't yet) before deleting that functionality.

 

[O C Diver]

yes, I'm thinking of connecting the 1/2" supply hose directly to the upper Y. To do that i just need to disconnect the T (see photo 2 in my last post) off from the Y below it. To do this I need to brace the Y below it. As i checked, the "bull" in this Y is in hex shape. so I can hold it using a long wrench while I unscrew the T. Using a wood block, is there a more secure way to hold the Y?

the drawing in photo 1 in my last post is still the same design as that in post #59, the pump will pull from instead of pressurize the Racor

After disconnecting all the hoses above the Y valve, you may have to remove the hose barb adapters. Always put a wrench on the fitting you are removing the hose barb from. Typically a box end wrench works best for removing the hose barbs.

After removing the hose barbs, hold the Y valve with a large adjustable wrench, bigger is better. This will give you more leverage to hold the Y valve still while you turn the tee with another adjustable wrench.

When you remove the tee, you may find the nipple staying in the Y valve. Typically, grabbing it with a pair of Vise grips while holding the Y valve with a big adjustable wrench, will allow you to unscrew it.

Holding the Y valve with the big adjustable wrench will allow you to screw a new hose barb in with a box end wrench.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

Just a thought: if your Racors are positioned above the lowest point of the fuel tanks,
you'll need to have a method on hand to fill dry filters with fuel, even in a seaway.
The pump as it is currently plumbed takes care of this.
So try filling the filters by hand (if you haven't yet) before deleting that functionality.

The facet pump is a piston style and will lift fuel 24" in vacuum. Opening the bleed on the secondary filter on the engine will allow the pump to fill the Racor and bleed the air through the secondary filter bleed.

Ted

 

[KnotYet]

The facet pump is a piston style and will lift fuel 24" in vacuum. Opening the bleed on the secondary filter on the engine will allow the pump to fill the Racor and bleed the air through the secondary filter bleed.

Ted

While this is one way to remove air from the filter and lines, it involves an engine.
A prudent skipper may want to simply change out a filter without involving engines.

 

[paulga]

Just a thought: if your Racors are positioned above the lowest point of the fuel tanks,
you'll need to have a method on hand to fill dry filters with fuel, even in a seaway.
The pump as it is currently plumbed takes care of this. In fact, your system would
appear to use a momentary switch to operate the Facet pump, preventing
the pressurization of the closed up Racor filters unless that was one's intent.
So try filling the filters by hand (if you haven't yet) before deleting that functionality.

The space is small above the racor. I manually topped the racor once last year using a party cup

When I added diesel from the diesel station pump to a gallon bottle, the pressure was so strong that the diesel was pushed out of the bottle and got everywhere. I had to apply the gun in small squirts.

 

[KnotYet]

The space is small above the racor. I manually topped the racor once last year using a party cup

When I added diesel from the diesel station pump to a gallon bottle, the pressure was so strong that the diesel was pushed out of the bottle and got everywhere. I had to apply the gun in small squirts.

I'm just trying to help.
I don't assume that the P.O. who put this system together was wrong to do so;
they were likely trying to solve a problem to the best of their knowledge and ability.

My approach would be to improve what you have without adding any new issues.

 

[paulga]

I'm just trying to help.
I don't assume that the P.O. who put this system together was wrong to do so;
they were likely trying to solve a problem to the best of their knowledge and ability.

My approach would be to improve what you have without adding any new issues.

It's even easier to keep the pump before the racor, thanks to Ted's walking me around. I just need to use a Y and T in place of those couplers.

What's the added risk of pushing fuel through the engine?

 

[KnotYet]

It's even easier to keep the pump before the racor, thanks to Ted's walking me around. I just need to use a Y and T in place of those couplers.

What's the added risk of pushing fuel through the engine?

None that I know of.

I would want to have a reliable method in place to replace a clogged fuel filter
while underway in rough water, in case the other filter might also potentially clog.
Not unlike what you currently have.

 

[paulga]

The facet pump is a piston style and will lift fuel 24" in vacuum. Opening the bleed on the secondary filter on the engine will allow the pump to fill the Racor and bleed the air through the secondary filter bleed.

Ted

This is a fuel transfer assembly b/t the two tanks. The plumbing is some rubber hoses joined by some couplers. Have you seen this type of hose? Does it allow unscrewing just the hex fittings 1 and 2 to release the top section?

 

[Bmarler]

Those look like flare fittings and should be swivels as well, so yes, you can undo1&2 and remove the top section. Hopefully the opened hoses will be above the fuel level in the tanks or you’ll have a mess.

This is a fuel transfer assembly b/t the two tanks. The plumbing is some rubber hoses joined by some couplers. Have you seen this type of hose? Does it allow unscrewing just the hex fittings 1 and 2 to release the top section?

 

[paulga]

Those look like flare fittings and should be swivels as well, so yes, you can undo1&2 and remove the top section. Hopefully the opened hoses will be above the fuel level in the tanks or you’ll have a mess.

I have marked two fittings below. Do they both look like flare fittings?

The blue connection hose b/t the two tanks has a shut off valve at the bottom of each tank. With those valves off, diesel will not come out if only the top section is disconnected.

 

[Bmarler]

the fitting on the right is a flare, i can't tell what the device on the left is. some kind of valve or check valve, not sure. it was put there on purpose though.

 

[O C Diver]

This is a fuel transfer assembly b/t the two tanks. The plumbing is some rubber hoses joined by some couplers. Have you seen this type of hose? Does it allow unscrewing just the hex fittings 1 and 2 to release the top section?

View attachment 156714

I don't think 1 and 2 are flare fittings. I think they're male pipe on the end of the hose but won't hazzard a guess on whether they swivel.

Apparently Rube Goldberg had an ardent admirer.

Ted

 

[paulga]

I don't think 1 and 2 are flare fittings. I think they're male pipe on the end of the hose but won't hazzard a guess on whether they swivel.

Apparently Rube Goldberg had an ardent admirer.

Ted

This design could be inspired by Rube Goldberg's works. or some details coincide b/t the two that could score a high similarity.

What is a more modern and practical way to plumb this transfer pump?

 

[luna]

All of the fittings that you marked 1 or 2 appears to me to be crimp on SAE 45º Flare Fittings. They could also be JIC 37º Flare Fittings (the 2 do not mate together correctly) but as yours look to be made from brass, my money is on the SAE 45º Flares. Yes, the hex part of this hose fitting usually swivels.

If this plumbing is to feed the pump that moves fuel from one tank to the other in order to balance the tank contents, I doubt that the bulge of fittings on the left hand side is a check valve. Wouldn't you want the ability for fuel to move in both directions? The pump reverses.....right!

Either the SAE or the JIC fittings are about as good as it gets (and remain modern) for the low pressures of a fuel delivery system. Perhaps if you spent some time with Eaton's Aeroquip catalog you will understand things better.

https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pct_479318.pdf

My small fuel hose of choice remains FC-234 AQP (see page 25) as it's A1 rated and can be used with reusable fittings (page136 -147). Using these you can easily get the total hose length right.

Parker Hannifin (the guys who make Racor stuff) likely have similar products. I for one, would not use push-on hose/fitting products for fuel delivery.
Call me crazy, I'll stick with Eaton.

 

[paulga]

All of the fittings that you marked 1 or 2 appears to me to be crimp on SAE 45º Flare Fittings. They could also be JIC 37º Flare Fittings (the 2 do not mate together correctly) but as yours look to be made from brass, my money is on the SAE 45º Flares. Yes, the hex part of this hose fitting usually swivels.

If this plumbing is to feed the pump that moves fuel from one tank to the other in order to balance the tank contents, I doubt that the bulge of fittings on the left hand side is a check valve. Wouldn't you want the ability for fuel to move in both directions? The pump reverses.....right!

Either the SAE or the JIC fittings are about as good as it gets (and remain modern) for the low pressures of a fuel delivery system. Perhaps if you spent some time with Eaton's Aeroquip catalog you will understand things better.

https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pct_479318.pdf

My small fuel hose of choice remains FC-234 AQP (see page 25) as it's A1 rated and can be used with reusable fittings (page136 -147). Using these you can easily get the total hose length right.

Parker Hannifin (the guys who make Racor stuff) likely have similar products. I for one, would not use push-on hose/fitting products for fuel delivery.
Call me crazy, I'll stick with Eaton.

Thanks for the dictionary.

one fitting in post #78 looks like this one below, page 138 in that catalog. so the elbow above that fitting should also have flare threads.

once it's crimped onto the hose, it cannot be taken off. where does it get the name reusable?

 

[KnotYet]

Having used those or similar fittings, I feel qualified to answer that query: The
fittings incorporate a central tube with threaded inner & outer parts that twist
on to the specified hose and seals tightly but can be removed and reused.

 

[luna]

In order to understand the Dictionary you need to be able to read.
I tried to draw your attention to the fitting shown on pages 136 to 147 which includes your reference to page 138.

What is the first word, right at the very top of each of these dozen pages?

Where did you get it was a crimp on fitting?

 

[paulga]

In order to understand the Dictionary you need to be able to read.
I tried to draw your attention to the fitting shown on pages 136 to 147 which includes your reference to page 138.

What is the first word, right at the very top of each of these dozen pages?

Where did you get it was a crimp on fitting?

i thought the fitting goes onto the hose in this way

 

[luna]

It can go on that way if you chose a crimp on fitting, but thats a lot of running back and forth to the hydraulic shop just to get the hose length wrong, likely too long.

Back to the Dictionary and you will find if you read the top half of page 319, provided that you buy reusable fittings there is another way. It will cost you more, but you get it right, with no driving.

To answer your previous question about the "elbow above that fitting", no, the elbow will have National Pipe Tapered threads (NPT) in it as usual. Wound into those threads is an adapter that has the male side of whatever the female fitting that is crimped onto the hose happens to have.

The hose fitting that you show in post #83 is a male. It has no hex portion that swivels to affect the connection.
Your pictures clearly show that the hose has a female fitting on it, as there is a hex cup that swivels.

You cannot determine for sure what design the connection actually is until you take it apart. Do you have a digital caliper and a set of fine thread gauges?

My guess remains SAE 45º

 

[O C Diver]

I think the part that's being missed is that the elbows are normal cast pipe. Normally on any JIC or SAE fitting, there are 2 hexagon areas. One is the swivel as part of the fitting on the hose and the other would be the adapter going into that cast pipe elbow. In post #76, fittings marked 1 and 2 one have one hexagon area.

Ted

 

[luna]

Good point, but on my screen the pictures are poor.

If indeed the hose has a Male pipe connector crimped onto it, the hex portion would need to swivel otherwise if the female fittings are mounted you could never make the second or last connection, although that is not exclusive to it being male pipe.

As I said you can't determine what the design of the connection is until it's apart.

 

[paulga]

It can go on that way if you chose a crimp on fitting, but thats a lot of running back and forth to the hydraulic shop just to get the hose length wrong, likely too long.

Back to the Dictionary and you will find if you read the top half of page 319, provided that you buy reusable fittings there is another way. It will cost you more, but you get it right, with no driving.

To answer your previous question about the "elbow above that fitting", no, the elbow will have National Pipe Tapered threads (NPT) in it as usual. Wound into those threads is an adapter that has the male side of whatever the female fitting that is crimped onto the hose happens to have.

The hose fitting that you show in post #83 is a male. It has no hex portion that swivels to affect the connection.
Your pictures clearly show that the hose has a female fitting on it, as there is a hex cup that swivels.

You cannot determine for sure what design the connection actually is until you take it apart. Do you have a digital caliper and a set of fine thread gauges?

My guess remains SAE 45º

what threads are b/t the hose and the socket in step 2 that form a seal?

I have a digital caliper, but no fine thread gauges