Fuel Polishing

[FF]

http://forum.ssca.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7697

OK its a bunch of rag baggers , but at least there out away from the power pole.

In this discussion the "pro" discussed cleaning the fuel and the tank , as opposed to sipping a bit of fuel and cleaning it* "fuel polishing"..

Very different concepts and very different equipment .

FF

 

[markpierce]

OK, OK.* Decided today to have a fuel polishing system installed on my Coot.* That with dual Racor filters will hopefully avoid most fuel-quality problems.*

* (Geez, how many valves will there be in the engine room?* They better be well-labeled!)

(Ignore the genset.* I'm not having one.)

 

[Phil Fill]

Mark , if you change the design around a bit you only need one set of Racors, the filters should be before the pump to protect it and the fuel pump can prime the engines.* I will see if I can post a diagram of my fuel polishing or send me*your email address and I will send to you.**

When we got the Eagle into her permentant*slip*I shut down the engine, sat in the engine over whelmed with all the*valve and stuff.* I left the boat and did not return for several weeks.* *****


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 01:15:55 AM

 

[RickB]

Geez P/F, if you can't read a drawing how can you expect to provide one for someone else?

How's the charter business going?

 

[Fotoman]

RickB wrote:

Geez P/F, if you can't read a drawing how can you expect to provide one for someone else?

How's the charter business going?

Rick, why exactly do you keep picking at Phill Fill every chance you've got? This is starting to be really annoying and totally out of place. I wish the moderators would play their role here...

*

 

[chiropaul]

Here's a link to an article about fuel polishing that was on the Trawlers and Trawlering site written by Will Andrews. Hope this helps. http://www.sentoa.org/maintenance_tips/fuel_polishing.html

 

[Delfin]

Mark, do you have 120vac in the ER?* Your fuel capacity is around 400 gallons?

 

[marinetrader]

Save your money.

I had my 400 gallon tanks polished by an outside firm and we found less than 3 oz of asphalt in the tanks after 5 years.

The tech said he hated to take my money and to keep on doing what I have always done; use Biobor religiously.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Save your money.

You've got a brand new boat mark. You can put that stuff on later * *...several years.


Just make sure you can drain or otherwise remove water regularly from the tanks.


Yes * *...Biobor

 

[sunchaser]

Eric is absolutely right. If you desire, a 3 stage filter setup (similar to Jay Leonard's who has posted pictures) will eliminate fuel problems you will see for the rest of your life, unless you fill up with junk fuel of course.

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Mark why no genset?* Just curious, not trying to debate.

When we were having all the problems on the sailboat with the gunked up fuel one of our dock friends who is a mechanic (albeit AUTO) swore by running off of a day tank of polished fuel. ... comments?

 

[Delfin]

Jennifer, Like you, I'm a little surprised that there isn't more support for fuel polishing.* I'm sure that if you ran through your fuel quickly there isn't much of a problem, but I don't know of a manufacturer of a trawler that doesn't recommend the ability to remove the natural amount of contaminants that precipitate out of, or grow in diesel fuel stored for a few months, or longer.* Based on the crud I get out of essentially brand new tanks after a season of polishing the fuel before transferring it to a day tank, I'm glad I have that capability, so I'm with your mechanic.* Maybe it's a case of if you don't have it, you don't notice the absence.* Until you do, then it's a bit late.

 

[markpierce]

Delfin wrote:

Mark, do you have 120vac in the ER?* Your fuel capacity is around 400 gallons?

Yes 120 vac.* Yes, 390 gallons*divided equally between two tanks.* DC system is 24 volt.

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 05:46:58 PM

 

[markpierce]

Pineapple Girl wrote:

Mark why no genset?* Just curious, not trying to debate.

Very expensive.
Crowds the engine room.
Don't have air conditioning.
Stove is propane.
Few nights not at a marina,*and not staying at one anchorage for long.
Noise.

*

 

[markpierce]

nomadwilly wrote:

Save your money.


You've got a brand new boat mark. You can put that stuff on later * *...several years.

I have nightmare visions of fuel blockage while running a bar at a bay's/river's entrance.

The idea is to avoid a build up of crud rather than waiting for it to bite my xxx.

*

 

[El Sea]

markpierce wrote:


nomadwilly wrote:I have nightmare visions of fuel blockage while running a bar at a bay's/river's entrance.

The idea is to avoid a build up of crud rather than waiting for it to bite my xxx.

While any filtration is good - however I can not see a normal fuel supply line providing enough flow to create the velocity*to distrub any crud that may rest on the bottom of the tank. The return line has to be able to not only have the velocity but also reach behind baffles.

We see large yachts that have very elaborate polishing systems (more money invested in the systems than what I paid for my boat) and they still have issues.

To avoid that fuel line blockage during a*bar/river entrance, this is where a day tank could be augmented with your polishing system.


El Sea/L.C.

"Suckin Sludge & Havin a Gas"

*

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Mark will you have an inverter?* We got a little one that plugs into a 12v socket and we can run our computer or TV off it.* We have a 4kw genset that we used at Angel Island (three nights over Thanksgiving) to run the stove*and charge the batteries.* The diesel heater won't start unless the batteries are near full charge.* Luckily we figured that out as we thought the heater had croaked!

Anyway I look forward to hearing what you decide to go with on your fuel polishing system and even MORE forward to hearing how well it is working when you get your boat in a few months!!* Seeing the hull painted makes it seem that much closer to COMPLETE!

 

[Delfin]

markpierce wrote:Delfin wrote:

Mark, do you have 120vac in the ER?* Your fuel capacity is around 400 gallons?

Yes, yes.* DC system is 24 volt.Just my opinion, but a less expensive option that probably has some advantages is a system that has somewhat higher flow and a 2 micron filter.* The reason I prefer this is that when the tank is near empty and sloshing around, if you can filter it multiple times you really clean the tanks each time you run low on fuel.* The flow of a Racor type 900 is around 2 times greater than the Gulf you show, meaning you'd run the fuel through the filter 2 times at 2 mics for each time it passed once through the Gulf.* Your choice, and I'm not sure if your Gulf motor/pump combo (the one you show is for 300 gallons or less) will cost you the list of but here is a cheaper system that sure works for me:

1. Racor (type) Griffin filter http://www.amazon.com/RACOR-900FH-EQUIVALENT-FILTER-SEPARATOR/dp/B002QO7S5I $145.00.
2. 1/4 hp 120 vac carbonator mount motor http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/MARATHON-ELECTRIC-Carbonator-Pump-Motor-2K458?Pid=search $126.00
3. ProCon rotary vane pump http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/PROCON-Rotary-Vane-Pump-6XE83?Pid=search $125.00.

You can add a timer if you like, but this might save you some $ and will certainly keep the fuel clean.* The motor is dead quiet, by the way.



*

 

[markpierce]

El Sea wrote:

While any filtration is good - however I can not see a normal fuel supply line providing enough flow to create the velocity*to distrub any crud that may rest on the bottom of the tank. "Suckin Sludge & Havin a Gas"

I'm concerned that movements of the boat created by the water's waves will disturb that "stuff" and not the mere sucking of the fuel line.

*

 

[markpierce]

Pineapple Girl wrote:

Mark will you have an inverter?* We got a little one that plugs into a 12v socket and we can run our computer or TV off it.* We have a 4kw genset that we used at Angel Island (three nights over Thanksgiving) to run the stove*and charge the batteries.*

Eight KW toroidal isolation transformer.
Dual 24 volt 200AH AGM house batteries.
Shore power system with CB protection.
Shore power volt meter.
24 volt inverter/charger.

There is also 120-volt AC wiring and sockets.

I'm not sure what all that means, but I expect to be able to charge the batteries and run a small electric heater when plugged in at a marina.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 08:11:42 PM

 

[Phil Fill]

RickB wrote:

Geez P/F, if you can't read a drawing how can you expect to provide one for someone else?

How's the charter business going?

RickB I can read drawing just fine.* However thank you for you ill mannered way of pointing out the GFC JR is a filter.*

*The symbol use for filters changed .* I read engine draws every day as we mfg paper/pulp/saw mill equipment mfg to engineering drawings.*


*
My fuel polishing system use on set of double 1000 Racorrather than multiple filters which makes it simpler and less costly.**If you have filters*what is*need is an electric fuel pump.**A fuel polishing system is not that complicated and costly.


*
And what does chartering 5+ years ago have to do with a polishing system.* Get over it and its old.

*

*

 

[markpierce]

Meanwhile, having fun and exchanging useful/entertaining information ...

 

[Marin]

markpierce wrote:

I'm concerned that movements of the boat created by the water's waves will disturb that "stuff" and not the mere sucking of the fuel line.

*

Mark--- You've got brand new tanks.* It sounds like you'll be using your boat a fair amount.* I suspect the fuel you'll be buying in the Bay area will be good fuel just like it is up here.* From everything I have heard and been told, your chances of building up the kind of crud that shakes loose on a rough day and clogs your filters are about zero at this point.

None of the boaters I know personally up here-- new or old---*have polishing systems on their boats.* And none of them have had fuel problems that I know of.* Our boat had new tanks installed the year before we bought it.* That was a bit over thirteen years ago.* We have never had the fuel polished.* We have a Mickey Mouse-sort of polishing system on the boat but we never use it nor did the owner who had it installed.* Our tanks feed from the lowest point in the tanks.* In the twelve years we've had the boat we've never had any dirt or water in the filter bowls.* We've been through some pretty rough stuff in the Strait of Georgia and the engines never hiccupped.

If having a polishing system on board gives you peace of mind, have at it.* That's a valid reason to do anything.* But my opinion is that if there is any boat on this forum that WON'T need a polishing system it's yours.* At least*until you reach the point where you leave it unused and totally neglected for a couple of years.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 09:44:36 PM

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:

...*From everything I have heard and been told, your chances of building up the kind of crud that shakes loose on a rough day and clogs your filters are about zero at this point.

If having a polishing system on board gives you peace of mind, have at it.*

Marin, I appreciate your comments.* But I doubt I'll consume the boat's 390*gallons of*fuel within a year's time,*years will pass, and the peace of mind is worth a thousand or so $.* Besides,*a polishing system*gives me more valves to play with.

*

 

[Marin]

markpierce wrote:

*But I doubt I'll consume the boat's 390*gallons of*fuel within a year's time....*

Nothing says you have to fill the boat all the way up all the time.** We don't.* We always have two 85 gallon saddle tanks empty, we transfer to the day tank from the other two 85 gallon tanks until they're almost empty, then we fill the two empty saddle tanks, drain the first two dry, and then let them sit empty until we've drawn down the second pair.

That way fuel isn't sitting around on the boat all that long.* When we go on a longer trip we'll top off all the tanks but then we start managing the fuel as I described.

*

 

[markpierce]

Marin wrote:

Nothing says you have to fill the boat all the way up all the time.**

True, but empty space in a tank provides more opportunity for condensation of water in the tank.* Food (fuel) and water is all that gunk-creating bacteria need.

*

 

[markpierce]

Phil Fill wrote:


Mark , if you change the design around a bit you only need one set of Racors, the filters should be before the pump to protect it and the fuel pump can prime the engines.*

Phil, I've asked the builder about the possibility (and expense)*of putting a Racor filter before the filter in the fuel-polishing circuit.* Thanks!

*

 

[markpierce]

markpierce wrote:

OK, OK.* Decided today to have a fuel polishing system installed on my Coot.* That with dual Racor filters will hopefully avoid most fuel-quality problems.*

* (Geez, how many valves will there be in the engine room?* They better be well-labeled!)

(Ignore the genset.* I'm not having one.)

I've examined the above schematic more closely now.* While I'm an ignoramus regarding this subject,*it seems*the above system permits filtering fuel (1) through the polishing system while at the same time the engine get its fuel independently and (2) passing through the polishing on its way to*an operating*engine.* Also, while not underway,**fuel polishing can be done without the engine running.* Is this correct?* Is it a good or bad idea to have the polishing system operating while (a) it is running independent of fuel going to the engine*or (b) it is providing fuel to the engine?* Would the pump be used whenever the polishing system is used?

*


-- Edited by markpierce on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 01:08:00 AM

 

[Marin]

markpierce wrote:

*
Marin wrote:

Nothing says you have to fill the boat all the way up all the time.

*

True, but empty space in a tank provides more opportunity for condensation of water in the tank.* Food (fuel) and water is all that gunk-creating bacteria need.

That's a very controversial topic.* I've read as many statements (by credible people) that condensation is not the bugaboo a lot of people assume it is as statements by equally credible people who say it is.* It's been discussed many times over the years on the GB forum, for example, and the proponents of condensation in fuel tanks are about equal in number to the people who say it's an overblown problem.

Our tanks are almost never all the way full.* And two of them are usually completely empty at any given time.* We have never seen a trace of water in our filter bowls in twelve years of owning the boat.

I don't come down on the side of the condensation theory being bogus because we ALWAYS got water in the fuel tanks of the planes I flew in Hawaii, even after only one night.* So I have no idea or theory why we don't ever get any water in our empty or partially full tanks on the boat but we don't.** And we're not alone--- most people I've talked to about this up here have related the same experience.

As the Moscow fire chief said when asked about the cause of the big fire in the city's famous television tower, "Is big mystery."

*


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 12th of January 2011 02:03:26 AM

 

[FF]

"None of the boaters I know personally up here-- new or old--- have polishing systems on their boats."

EVERY Detroit Diesel boat owner you know has a built in polishing system , pulls 35GPH , returns

10 to 32gph , so the FUEL gets clean.

The problems come when folks confuse cleaned fuel with a clean tank.

No amount of fuel cleaning will fix a gunkey tank.

ONLY a scraper cleans a bad tank.