Ford Lehman 2703E restart problems when the motor has warmed up

[MWHoffmann]

Hello Trawler Forum,

I am glad to be here.

I hope you can help me, even if not I think it's great that you exist. I come from Berlin and drive a boat from the 70s. The manufacturer is no longer known. It was probably built in Holland. As far as I can tell it is a 100 hp or 120 hp Ford Lehman Type 2703E6050. I love my boat but now I have engine problems. Unfortunately nobody here in Berlin and the surrounding area could help me with the problem, nobody knows anything about Ford Lehman. A replacement engine is out of the question, I love the Ford Lehman.

About the engine problem: The engine starts cold without any problems the first time it is started. The engine runs very well and has no temperature problems only after about 1 hour, i.e. when it has warmed up and I switch it off, it no longer starts. I have to wait until the temperature has cooled down to about 40 degrees celsius (104 °F). Then the engine starts again without any problems. Unfortunately, there is no engine compartment cooling system in the engine compartment. In summer, I sometimes have to wait up to 2 hours before I can start the engine again. The engine is also connected to a dual-circuit cooling system and we have to top up the cooling water from time to time.

Do you have any ideas? As I said, the engine runs without any problems, but when it is warm I can't restart it and have to wait until it has cooled down.

Thank you already for your efforts. I have also contacted American Diesel by email and am waiting for a reply.

A boatyard has offered to remove the engine and check it on the engine test bench to find the fault, but they don't really know anything about Ford Lehman, so I'm afraid to do it. Perhaps you also have a contact in Berlin or Brandenburg who is familiar with Ford Lehman?

Many thanks and best regards from Berlin
Martin

 

[jleonard]

When you push the START button does the engine turn over or not?
Does it rotate at the same speed hot or cold?
Or does the engine NOT turn over?

 

[MWHoffmann]

Hello Jay,

The engine is turning, so I can hear the starter. What do you mean by the same speed? Thank you for your help.

 

[Tate]

Hello Jay,

The engine is turning, so I can hear the starter. What do you mean by the same speed? Thank you for your help.

He means the RPM of the engine during cranking. This won't always show up on the tach but you can usually tell/hear the speed of the engine rotating during cranking. If the engine is rotating slower when cranking warm than when cranking cold, it could be a battery issue (especially if the batteries are in the hot engine room). Heat can cause havoc on electrical systems. Check the connections and grounds.

Also, when an engine is hot, it changes the clearances and the viscosity of fuel. Might be worth investigating the injection pump.

 

[MWHoffmann]

Thank you very much for your answers. I have also received an answer from Brian. He also thinks it's an electrical problem and the starter is not getting enough voltage, so the heat is causing the voltage drop to be too high as the resistance in the cables increases. I will measure this with a multimeter and install engine compartment ventilation and exhaust air.

Can you recommend a good engine compartment ventilation system? Should I choose a separate inline variant for supply and exhaust air? How big should it be?

I'll keep you posted on the results of the multimeter measurement. It's currently winter in Berlin and I'll have to see when I can carry out the measurement.

 

[Comodave]

For test purposes you could leave the doors or hatches open and just run a fan to help cool the engine room. Check the voltage at the starter when it is cranking. If the voltage is low then start checking the voltage at every connection and see if you can find the voltage drop. It could easily be a dirty or loose connection. Also could be a bad crimp on a connector. It could also be undersize battery cables.

 

[tpbrady]

If you can’t find an electrical problem and want to try a quick experiment dealing with the injection pump, you can ty this. If the seals in the injection pump are starting to go bad, when the engine is shut off when hot, it can’t be restarted as the pump cannot generate the pressure required due to fuel leaking by the seals. Pour some water on the injection pump to cool it down, then see if it starts. Once fuel starts flowing through the pump it will stay cool. Happened on my Perkins which is similar to the Lehman.

 

[Lepke]

A couple things that can help, an electric lift pump and/or a check valve between the lift pump and the injector pump.
When it's hot, fuel expands and can push fuel back toward the tank. Also the fuel in the injector tubes will push back past the seals into the injector pump. Sometimes the fuel in the tubes boils and becomes full of bubbles. All of this extends the cranking time. If the tubes have bubbles, then when cranking the bubbles compress and reduce the pressure needed to open the injectors.
An easy check when hot is to bleed the injector pump and then the tubes. Loosen the tube nuts on the injector top, crank and see if solid fuel comes out. If not bleed until solid fuel comes out.
Put rags around the injectors to catch the fuel.

 

[Comodave]

I don’t think his engine has a turbo.

 

[MWHoffmann]

yes exactly, my engine doesn't have a turbo.

 

[Nick F]

An easy check when hot - . . . . Loosen the tube nuts on the injector top, crank and see if solid fuel comes out. If not bleed until solid fuel comes out.
Put rags around the injectors to catch the fuel.

I am surprised that no one else has suggested this. This is the most obvious diagnostic test and it is easy to perform: Do this: Loosen a connector at one of the injectors. Have someone crank the engine (have someone push the starter button). Watch for spurts of fuel coming from the loosened connection. If no spurts, you have a fuel problem.
(Wear safety glasses and have a rag ready to minimise the mess)

Let us know the result of this check and we will advise the next diagnostic steps.

PS - this is standard practice for ANY diesel engine. Any knowledgeable diesel mechanic would do this.

PPS The above assumes that the starter motor is operating normally.

 

[Choices]

I have had this problem before.
The starter relay on my Lehman 135 is on the port side, under the exhaust manifold. That location is prone to water and oil dripping onto the relay base for the starter.

Over thirty years the wires had become brittle and relay base cracked. Terminating the wires and replacing the base and the problem was fixed.

Yours is an electrical problem. If heat related, overheating, you should see it on water temp gauge.

 

[SteveK]

I wonder if an extended idle time before shutting down would result in an easier restart when still hot.
Rode hard and put away wet came to mind.

 

[MWHoffmann]

thanks for the answers, I also think it's an electrical problem. The engine otherwise runs without problems even when running continuously for many hours at a time and there are no heat problems with the engine. Only the start does not work when the engine or the engine compartment is very warm. As I said, as soon as I'm back on the boat I'll take the electrical measurements, then I'll be smarter . In any case, I now have an idea of what I can do myself, thank you very much.

 

[Nick F]

thanks for the answers, I also think it's an electrical problem. The engine otherwise runs without problems even when running continuously for many hours at a time and there are no heat problems with the engine. Only the start does not work when the engine or the engine compartment is very warm. As I said, as soon as I'm back on the boat I'll take the electrical measurements, then I'll be smarter . In any case, I now have an idea of what I can do myself, thank you very much.

Good. If the starter is not turning, the problem is electrical. Most likely a loose connection or a sticky solenoid.

A very common diagnostic (and also a temporary fix) is to have someone push and hold the starter button and you use a hammer to (lightly) hit the casing of the solenoid. (the solenoid is a small cylindrical device - usually silver in colour - which is mounted on the side of the starter motor)

Very often, this action will cause the starter to turn.

 

[Tim]

Good. If the starter is not turning, the problem is electrical. Most likely a loose connection or a sticky solenoid.

A very common diagnostic (and also a temporary fix) is to have someone push and hold the starter button and you use a hammer to (lightly) hit the casing of the solenoid. (the solenoid is a small cylindrical device - usually silver in colour - which is mounted on the side of the starter motor)

Very often, this action will cause the starter to turn.

If you have an electric stop button it could get stuck closed from the heat. Perhaps an overheated stop solonoid is holding the fuel valve closed until it cools down. Do you have electric stop?

 

[Cambria46]

Hello Trawler Forum,

I am glad to be here.

I hope you can help me, even if not I think it's great that you exist. I come from Berlin and drive a boat from the 70s. The manufacturer is no longer known. It was probably built in Holland. As far as I can tell it is a 100 hp or 120 hp Ford Lehman Type 2703E6050. I love my boat but now I have engine problems. Unfortunately nobody here in Berlin and the surrounding area could help me with the problem, nobody knows anything about Ford Lehman. A replacement engine is out of the question, I love the Ford Lehman.

About the engine problem: The engine starts cold without any problems the first time it is started. The engine runs very well and has no temperature problems only after about 1 hour, i.e. when it has warmed up and I switch it off, it no longer starts. I have to wait until the temperature has cooled down to about 40 degrees celsius (104 °F). Then the engine starts again without any problems. Unfortunately, there is no engine compartment cooling system in the engine compartment. In summer, I sometimes have to wait up to 2 hours before I can start the engine again. The engine is also connected to a dual-circuit cooling system and we have to top up the cooling water from time to time.

Do you have any ideas? As I said, the engine runs without any problems, but when it is warm I can't restart it and have to wait until it has cooled down.

Thank you already for your efforts. I have also contacted American Diesel by email and am waiting for a reply.

A boatyard has offered to remove the engine and check it on the engine test bench to find the fault, but they don't really know anything about Ford Lehman, so I'm afraid to do it. Perhaps you also have a contact in Berlin or Brandenburg who is familiar with Ford Lehman?

Many thanks and best regards from Berlin
Martin

Very interesting. I had an old Westerneke in a sailboat. It always started right up when cold. However, after a long motor, it would nor start again until it cooled off. I did everything - cleaned contacts. I installed new starter and solenoid at the recommend of a reputable mechanic ($$$). None of that solved the issue. Finally, I talked to an old mechanic friend with an outstanding reputation in the industry. He said old engines were like people. Sometimes they needed an extra kick in the butt to get started. He explained that when the engine got hot parts expanded and it took more kick to create the compression necessary for it to start.He wired in a second solenoid from an auto parts store. As a retired lawyer, I do not completely understand the rationale. But, I never again had an issue with starting the engine when hot. Another friend with a similar problem did the same thing and it solved his issue as well.

 

[Comodave]

I had a stop button fail in the stopped position one time. PITA to figure it out.

 

[new2trawl]

As already stated, heat is the enemy and I think you stated the starter does turn the engine when hot but she's a no-go. How confident are you on your temp gauge? Perhaps she's hotter than it's reading. Acquire a pyrometer and check the engine's temp reading after you shut her down to see if you gauge is reading the same. That loving Lehman may be hotter than you think. Also as mentioned above, vaporizing the fuel from the injector pump will keep it from starting. She starts cold but not hot. Sounds like she's trying to tell you something. Btw, I also love Lehmans. I have two in my boat.

 

[BeeJay]

As already stated, heat is the enemy and I think you stated the starter does turn the engine when hot but she's a no-go. How confident are you on your temp gauge? Perhaps she's hotter than it's reading. Acquire a pyrometer and check the engine's temp reading after you shut her down to see if you gauge is reading the same. That loving Lehman may be hotter than you think. Also as mentioned above, vaporizing the fuel from the injector pump will keep it from starting. She starts cold but not hot. Sounds like she's trying to tell you something. Btw, I also love Lehmans. I have two in my boat.

Hello Trawler Forum,

I am glad to be here.

I hope you can help me, even if not I think it's great that you exist. I come from Berlin and drive a boat from the 70s. The manufacturer is no longer known. It was probably built in Holland. As far as I can tell it is a 100 hp or 120 hp Ford Lehman Type 2703E6050. I love my boat but now I have engine problems. Unfortunately nobody here in Berlin and the surrounding area could help me with the problem, nobody knows anything about Ford Lehman. A replacement engine is out of the question, I love the Ford Lehman.

About the engine problem: The engine starts cold without any problems the first time it is started. The engine runs very well and has no temperature problems only after about 1 hour, i.e. when it has warmed up and I switch it off, it no longer starts. I have to wait until the temperature has cooled down to about 40 degrees celsius (104 °F). Then the engine starts again without any problems. Unfortunately, there is no engine compartment cooling system in the engine compartment. In summer, I sometimes have to wait up to 2 hours before I can start the engine again. The engine is also connected to a dual-circuit cooling system and we have to top up the cooling water from time to time.

Do you have any ideas? As I said, the engine runs without any problems, but when it is warm I can't restart it and have to wait until it has cooled down.

Thank you already for your efforts. I have also contacted American Diesel by email and am waiting for a reply.

A boatyard has offered to remove the engine and check it on the engine test bench to find the fault, but they don't really know anything about Ford Lehman, so I'm afraid to do it. Perhaps you also have a contact in Berlin or Brandenburg who is familiar with Ford Lehman?

Many thanks and best regards from Berlin
Martin

Hello Trawler Forum,

I am glad to be here.

I hope you can help me, even if not I think it's great that you exist. I come from Berlin and drive a boat from the 70s. The manufacturer is no longer known. It was probably built in Holland. As far as I can tell it is a 100 hp or 120 hp Ford Lehman Type 2703E6050. I love my boat but now I have engine problems. Unfortunately nobody here in Berlin and the surrounding area could help me with the problem, nobody knows anything about Ford Lehman. A replacement engine is out of the question, I love the Ford Lehman.

About the engine problem: The engine starts cold without any problems the first time it is started. The engine runs very well and has no temperature problems only after about 1 hour, i.e. when it has warmed up and I switch it off, it no longer starts. I have to wait until the temperature has cooled down to about 40 degrees celsius (104 °F). Then the engine starts again without any problems. Unfortunately, there is no engine compartment cooling system in the engine compartment. In summer, I sometimes have to wait up to 2 hours before I can start the engine again. The engine is also connected to a dual-circuit cooling system and we have to top up the cooling water from time to time.

Do you have any ideas? As I said, the engine runs without any problems, but when it is warm I can't restart it and have to wait until it has cooled down.

Thank you already for your efforts. I have also contacted American Diesel by email and am waiting for a reply.

A boatyard has offered to remove the engine and check it on the engine test bench to find the fault, but they don't really know anything about Ford Lehman, so I'm afraid to do it. Perhaps you also have a contact in Berlin or Brandenburg who is familiar with Ford Lehman?

Many thanks and best regards from Berlin
Martin

Hi Martin,

How long since you checked the valve clearances ? (ie. no static valve clearance) Is it possible the valves are not closing when warm ? `Please don't remove your engine to find the fault the old salts here will be able to help.

 

[SteveK]

An electric problem can be quickly checked by bypassing/jumping the start solonoid. Clean all connections +/- from the battery. The ground connection is often overlooked. Rule out electrical, if that is not the found problem read post 8 again.

 

[ronobrien]

Thank you very much for your answers. I have also received an answer from Brian. He also thinks it's an electrical problem and the starter is not getting enough voltage, so the heat is causing the voltage drop to be too high as the resistance in the cables increases. I will measure this with a multimeter and install engine compartment ventilation and exhaust air.

Can you recommend a good engine compartment ventilation system? Should I choose a separate inline variant for supply and exhaust air? How big should it be?

I'll keep you posted on the results of the multimeter measurement. It's currently winter in Berlin and I'll have to see when I can carry out the measurement.

If resistance in the cables or connection is suspected then a voltage drop test is in order. Connect one lead of the multi meter to the battery POST, not the cable or cable clamp positive side and the other lead to the starter POST, again not the cable of cable connector. When cranking you should 500mv MAX voltage drop. If you are seeing more than that then start checking point to point until you find where the drop is occurring. Repeat the process on the negative side but you should see no more than 150mv drop there.

 

[MWHoffmann]

If resistance in the cables or connection is suspected then a voltage drop test is in order. Connect one lead of the multi meter to the battery POST, not the cable or cable clamp positive side and the other lead to the starter POST, again not the cable of cable connector. When cranking you should 500mv MAX voltage drop. If you are seeing more than that then start checking point to point until you find where the drop is occurring. Repeat the process on the negative side but you should see no more than 150mv drop there.

Thank you very much for your help, unfortunately it is -15 degrees celsius here in Germany right now, so I can't take the exams. As soon as it gets warmer I will do a voltage drop test. Then I can rule that out. Then I'll do the other points, thanks for all the tips. The engine will not be removed for the time being.

Best regards from cold Berlin

 

[BeeJay]

Just to confirm, you can start it ok 3 or 4 times in a row when cold, it's just that it won't restart after it has heat soaked - right?. (Maybe you'll need to wait for things to warm up before you can answer - it's a nice warm 27 degrees Celsius where I am

 

[MWHoffmann]

Just to confirm, you can start it ok 3 or 4 times in a row when cold, it's just that it won't restart after it has heat soaked - right?. (Maybe you'll need to wait for things to warm up before you can answer - it's a nice warm 27 degrees Celsius where I am

Yes, that is correct, cold or within a window of approx. 1 hour after starting, the engine can always be started again. When it is hot, I can hear the starter motor cranking, but the engine does not start. I have to wait approx. 1.5 hours (time to cool down), then it starts again. I also have a classic mechanical switch to turn off the engine.

 

[Comodave]

I would take the starter off and either have it tested or replace it. It may be heat sensitive. Get it rebuilt and store as a spare.

 

[ronobrien]

Thank you very much for your help, unfortunately it is -15 degrees celsius here in Germany right now, so I can't take the exams. As soon as it gets warmer I will do a voltage drop test. Then I can rule that out. Then I'll do the other points, thanks for all the tips. The engine will not be removed for the time being.

Best regards from cold Berlin

That was our temp in New England a few weeks ago. -8C here today. Stay warm.

 

[BeeJay]

Yes, that is correct, cold or within a window of approx. 1 hour after starting, the engine can always be started again. When it is hot, I can hear the starter motor cranking, but the engine does not start. I have to wait approx. 1.5 hours (time to cool down), then it starts again. I also have a classic mechanical switch to turn off the engine.

If the starter motor is turning the engine over seemingly at the same RPM (i.e engine cranks at the same speed whilst attempting to start when both hot and cold) and can start the motor multiple times in a row when cold, I think I would be looking in other areas. It's really hard to diagnose from afar, and the Lehman junkies would be able to rule it out by listening to it and observing how quickly its cranking it they were on site. Keep in mind that the starter motor is just cranking the engine over at the required RPM to initiate a start, it sounds from what you say that its doing that ?.

 

[MWHoffmann]

If the starter motor is turning the engine over seemingly at the same RPM (i.e engine cranks at the same speed whilst attempting to start when both hot and cold) and can start the motor multiple times in a row when cold, I think I would be looking in other areas. It's really hard to diagnose from afar, and the Lehman junkies would be able to rule it out by listening to it and observing how quickly its cranking it they were on site. Keep in mind that the starter motor is just cranking the engine over at the required RPM to initiate a start, it sounds from what you say that its doing that ?.

I still have to test whether the starter turns at the same speed when warm. I think the voltage drop test is just the thing. As soon as I know more, I'll let you know.

 

[Nick F]

Good advice from Beejay. Do the simple stuff first. It will be obvious if the starter is substantially slower when the engine is hot.