Florida anchoring issues

[Canuck Sailor]

This is hilarious! So after you move past one mile of this dozen plus seaports, you only have 99% of the rest of Florida waters to anchor in. Apparently you haven't anchored much in Florida. Probably 99% of cruisers don't anchor near within a mile of seaports.



And again, apparently you haven't anchored much in Florida. 99% of cruisers in Florida don't stay in the same anchorage for 30 days. Most cruisers travel around the state whether Florida residents or the thousands transiting through the state. Simply consider the number of cruisers going to the Bahamas and further South, that come from North or West of Florida. Having cruised and anchored about 70% of Florida's coast (Pensacola to Jacksonville), I would estimate less than 1% of cruisers will be impacted by the 30 day limit.

Ted

 

[Canuck Sailor]

OC - you're SO clever. I spend a great deal of time in Florida, and have done so for over 20 years. I can describe with accuracy every east coast and Keys anchorage, and most anchorages up to Tampa Bay. I've written on Florida for Waterway Guide and other publications, given hundreds of seminars and webinars and done exactly that. So maybe instead of telling us how clever you are about who I am and what I do, you should stop with the ad hominems and deal with the facts, ok?
There are at least 300 boats within the 5000 foot circle in Palm Beach. There are probably 50 - 75 in Fernandina Beach. In Miami and Miami Beach, probably another 3 - 400.
The problem is that these laws will affect everyone -- if you took the time to read and comprehend them as I have, you'd see that.

 

[mvweebles]

if we, as boaters don't act, we are going to find our rights to anchor overnight at all, gone. Don't say it can't happen. Fl§ 327.4108 blocked off all overnight anchoring in three areas of Miami Beach and Fort Lauderdale in 2016, and last year, added several more areas in Miami Beach.

These restrictions were imposed not because cruisers anchored, but because squatters took advantage and were lousy neighbors leaving grungy dinghies at courtesy docks all day. So much so that the anchoring privileges for legit cruisers were affected by laws beyond having nice anchorages clogged with PoS boats. Communities have closed public dinghy docks because of abuse by squatters. Don't be surprised that you have trouble rallying support for the people who soured it for legit cruisers.

Same happened in Sausalito where this issue has simmered for 75 years (though my experience there only dates back to 1991). Finally, enough is enough and even liberal Californians in the shadow of Berkeley said it was time for the anchor outs to get a job.

Peter

 

[Canuck Sailor]

I've lived in Pinellas County for 20+ years and I own several properties on the barrier islands. I cross the ICW daily and see the derelict boats every single day including many still abandoned on the beach because of Helene and Milton last fall.

I have no doubt there is some over-reach in the laws to which I have two responses: first, folks like yourself have made it impossible to find common sense solutions because not only do you agitate, but you litigate. You take advantage of everything you possibly can rather than being a good neighbor. Second (and I can't believe I'm saying this), I'd prefer govt over reach to the deliberate disregard of public resources your cohort represents.

In the end, your position either in actuality or in effect is anyone should be able to anchor anywhere for as long as they please in any floating object they can devise. I don't agree. I would not care except you show up in places like this with White Papers that are really propaganda and try to insinuate that true cruisers will suffer if they don't support squatter rights when the truth is this wouldn't be an issue is it weren't for the squatters taking advantage in the first place. You're harming me twice.

We view the world very differently. I understand your position perfectly well I just vehemently disagree with your conclusions. Don't mistake that as ignorance. Years of taking advantage of public resources has alienated people who were once sympathetic.

Peter

One of the reasons I don't come here often is because of you, personally. You're an ………it. You don't address the issue, you attack the speaker. And as for "my cohort" - you have NO idea what that is, you only think you do.
You haven't read my paper, but you have an opinion on it all the same. You make unsubstantiated claims such as "anyone should be able to anchor anywhere for as long as they please in any floating object they can devise", demonstrating you don't have a clue to my position. But still you have your uninformed, self important position.
So since you pride yourself on being so smart, READ "Anchoring a Solution". You'll find out just how wrong you are about what you think you know, and then maybe, just maybe, we can have an intelligent discussion.
But based on past experience with you, I highly doubt that.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

These restrictions were imposed not because cruisers anchored, but because squatters took advantage and were lousy neighbors leaving grungy dinghies at courtesy docks all day. So much so that the anchoring privileges for legit cruisers were affected by laws beyond having nice anchorages clogged with PoS boats. Communities have closed public dinghy docks because of abuse by squatters. Don't be surprised that you have trouble rallying support for the people who soured it for legit cruisers.

Same happened in Sausalito where this issue has simmered for 75 years (though my experience there only dates back to 1991). Finally, enough is enough and even liberal Californians in the shadow of Berkeley said it was time for the anchor outs to get a job.

Peter

and once again, you prove that you don't know what you're talking about. Fl§ 327.4108 was not established for those reasons. You weren't there at the time, I was. As I said, READ "Anchoring a Solution" and educate yourself. I've attached a copy for you to make it easy.

 

[psneeld]

Then be impressed. I have spent a great deal of time since 2007 informing myself on this situation. I'm worked as a delivery captain, charter captain, speaker at hundreds of boat shows and yacht clubs and webinars, an author and writer for numerous major boating publications.
The situation in Florida is urgent and if we, as boaters don't act, we are going to find our rights to anchor overnight at all, gone. Don't say it can't happen. Fl§ 327.4108 blocked off all overnight anchoring in three areas of Miami Beach and Fort Lauderdale in 2016, and last year, added several more areas in Miami Beach.

Don't worry I am not impressed. Know lots of guys with our credentials or better. Most publication writers are better writers than boaters in my view as are you tubers too.

Actually.... at this point, severe restrictions in some places might be a good thing. As a cruiser, I only NEED one night in many places. With that one night exception and the philosophy that Ted and I have that ultimately for cruisers there are still plenty of good anchorage spots in Florida past these ports and major metro areas.

Sorry but I believe cruisers keep moving. Not necessarily every day, but 2 weeks to me seems fair. Faster than some would like, slower than many I know. As suggested, some cruisers like to spend time longer than 2 weeks...like the Keys for example. Yet they still move around until they find so many great anchorages full of boats with tons of green moss on their anchor rodes. With no decent place to swing, they are forced to move on or pick an undesirable spot hoping someone will finally move on.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

If you read my posts, you would know that I do boat and rub elbows with cruisers on many days here in Florida.

Unless you are now a Florida resident like me, boating all year here in FL and often visiting a highly transitory and seasonal visitor marina like FT Pierce City marina, I'm not sure where you are coming from. Was just at FPCM last week when we held a memorial for a friend who cruised and lived on boats for the last 50 years here.

You keep saying you have boated more and know more than some pretty savvy guys who own boats/property down here and have cruised a great many years with boating profession backgrounds too. I seem up to date on boating news as shown by me comments on other boating laws here in Fl.

Like Peter, no, I don't share your views on how people should be able to do what and where they want on Florida waters....that's pretty obvious. What is obvious to me is some long term anchored boats make cruising that much harder on other by forcing all this legislation that may limit all anchoring rights and create a PIA paperwork system to enforce it all.

I have spent as much as six months a year for over 20 years now boating in Florida. I know FPCM well, fueled there numerous times, anchored out in the inlet for two weeks just before Christmas. On top of that, I can describe to you in detail every east coast anchorage, I have that level of knowledge. So lay off the dick swinging why don't you? You aren't up to date on the boating laws, and you've demonstrated that here. There are now three bills, two with companion bills, that will hugely impact our rights to anchor, even for the short term, in Florida. You're clearly not aware of the ramifications of those bills, you've demonstrated that here.
And like Peter, you have no effing idea what my views are. I've attached a copy of "Anchoring a Solution" for you. Read it BEFORE you try to tell me again what you know about my views.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Don't worry I am not impressed. Know lots of guys with out credentials or better. Most publication writers are better writers than boaters in my view as you tubers too.

Actually.... at this point, severe restrictions in some places might be a good thing. As a cruiser, I only NEED one night in many places. With that one night exception and the philosophy that Ted and I have that ultimately for cruisers there are still plenty of good anchorage spots in Florida past these ports and major metro areas.

Sorry but I believe cruisers keep moving. Not necessarily every day, but 2 weeks to me seems fair. Faster than some would like, slower than many I know. As suggested, some cruisers like to spend time longer than 2 weeks...like the Keys for example. Yet they still move around until they find so many great anchorages full of boats with tons of green moss on their anchor rodes. With no decent place to swing, they are forced to move on or pick an undesirable spot hoping someone will finally move on.

Riddle me this then -- you're in Palm Beach to cross to West End and facing a two week limit, and the weather doesn't co-operate. You can't cross, you don't have the permit, and you get a ticket for overstaying.
That make sense to you?
I have outlined solutions to all of these issues in "Anchoring a Solution" - I've attached a copy for you previously. Read it and see what they are.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Don't worry I am not impressed. Know lots of guys with out credentials or better. Most publication writers are better writers than boaters in my view as you tubers too.

Actually.... at this point, severe restrictions in some places might be a good thing. As a cruiser, I only NEED one night in many places. With that one night exception and the philosophy that Ted and I have that ultimately for cruisers there are still plenty of good anchorage spots in Florida past these ports and major metro areas.

Sorry but I believe cruisers keep moving. Not necessarily every day, but 2 weeks to me seems fair. Faster than some would like, slower than many I know. As suggested, some cruisers like to spend time longer than 2 weeks...like the Keys for example. Yet they still move around until they find so many great anchorages full of boats with tons of green moss on their anchor rodes. With no decent place to swing, they are forced to move on or pick an undesirable spot hoping someone will finally move on.

I forgot to mention that I'm also an instructor. So I actually can sail as well as I write. Glad you only need one night. I'd hate to have to put up with a sanctimonious pita like you for any longer.
Not everyone cruises as you do, so to expect a one size fits all solution is not very smart on your part. That attitude has been a part of the problem in Florida for decades.

 

[mvweebles]

......
So since you pride yourself on being so smart, READ "Anchoring a Solution". You'll find out just how wrong you are about what you think you know,

I read the links to the legislation you posted. In my opinion, they did not say what you claimed they said. And now you want me to read your interpretation because I reached a different conclusion? That's intelligent discussion?

Peter

 

[jleonard]

I think we need Howard Cosell’s commentary.
What round is this? I lost track

 

[Canuck Sailor]

I read the links to the legislation you posted. In my opinion, they did not say what you claimed they said. And now you want me to read your interpretation because I reached a different conclusion? That's intelligent discussion?

Peter

In your opinion. You've proven more than once that you don't know …..about, …..
I don't address the legislation in "Anchoring a Solution". It was written before those were filed. I discuss the history and how to come to a solution. But since you insist on being uninformed here, I guess we'll just have to accept that as your default position. It's a lot easier than doing the work, isn't it?

 

[psneeld]

Riddle me this then -- you're in Palm Beach to cross to West End and facing a two week limit, and the weather doesn't co-operate. You can't cross, you don't have the permit, and you get a ticket for overstaying.
That make sense to you?
I have outlined solutions to all of these issues in "Anchoring a Solution" - I've attached a copy for you previously. Read it and see what they are.

I would move up or down the ICW a short way to avoid the ticket (of course it will depend on exactly how every law reads).

I read your white paper and agree on half of it or so. Well researched and documented but now exactly from what I experience down here from when I started living on and off in Florida since the 1970's.

But as I posted about moving.... that is really the point of what a cruiser is capable of, just like being in the best anchorage, but moving to the other side of land to avoid a storm. Which is more prevalent now that many great anchorages are filled with squatters.

As to not knowing or understanding current legislation, based on current events, I would say that no amount of lobbying may change things, then again it did in Georgia not too long ago. Hard to say so my interest in getting into the details doesn't excite me as much you.

I think you made your point, the more details you post about, people will find holes in them. I think you did what you came to do, introduce and educate. Not everyone will agree with you, and continue with the name calling, the thread may take a bad turn.

 

[Don L]

I have spent the best part of the last 8 years full time boating in Florida, both coasts, and crossing over to the Bahamas. I understand the problem.

Lets be clear the Florida boat problem has been caused by boaters abusing the current laws. Florida is basically the wild west of anchoring and any POS boat can and does anchor here. Between the abandoned boats and the liveaboard boats that are like floating trash piles, boaters have caused this problem. Yes there are anchored and liveaboard boats that are reasonable people, but those aren't the problem yet they now have to suffer the effects. There are many anchoring locations in FL when I didn't anchor at because of the other boats that are basically just scum on boats.

Every proposed law that tries to fix or just address the issue gets called a violation of boaters "rights". But those "rights" they complain about only exist in Florida because there aren't really any laws. There are only a few "anchor friendly" towns in all of Florida and at all out them you see the problem, its the boat scum that are the floating version of a 3rd class trailer.

In all my time boating in Florida I NEVER have had a FWC or sheriff stop or even come up to me to talk. The LEOs aren't interested in hassling true cruiser and responsible boaters.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Here is something that to me says it all.... a boating instructor that disagrees with the Govenor and Sheriffs.

Florida governor wants Boater Freedom Initiative to ban FWC vessel safety checks

Vessel safety checks help FWC law enforcement officers uncover crimes such as impaired boating and fishing violations.

www.palmbeachpost.com

"If there a mandatory vessel safety equipment inspections say every two years, and a compliance decal with an expiration date is issued, than that should eliminate the need for safety compliance stops," said Chapman School of Seamanship instructor Mike Kmiotek, who's also a Port St. Lucie charter fishing captain. "However, I feel that enforcing boating while under the influence laws and fishing regulations is an entirely different subject. Random stops only to check fishing regulation compliance and people boating under the influence should be permitted."

I know our local Sherriff's boat hardly ever got underway the years I lived on my boat near where it was docked. Not likely they were really up to speed on the maritime problems under their nose. Then again, in the big scheme of things, this whole hub bub barely reaches any meaningful level till some landowners start beating up their government reps and the media has time to cover that story.

Indian River County Sheriff Eric Flowers said safety stops have been a useful tool, but he supports banning them because he is concerned about Fourth Amendment violations of unlawful search and seizure. He equated it to his sheriff's deputies stopping a car just to see if the driver had a working jack or spare tire.

"I understand the concern," Flowers said. "It's something we have never abused. I could see other agencies may have done that. I get both sides of the argument. There's no difference. Both are vehicles."

"There's plenty of reasons for us to pull over vessels" if deputies suspect a crime or violation," Flowers said. "Pulling anyone over and at anytime, that's not right."

 

[O C Diver]

OC - you're SO clever. I spend a great deal of time in Florida, and have done so for over 20 years. I can describe with accuracy every east coast and Keys anchorage, and most anchorages up to Tampa Bay. I've written on Florida for Waterway Guide and other publications, given hundreds of seminars and webinars and done exactly that. So maybe instead of telling us how clever you are about who I am and what I do, you should stop with the ad hominems and deal with the facts, ok?

Oh my goodness, now you're starting to tell the truth! So now 99% of Florida's anchorages aren't going away!

There are at least 300 boats within the 5000 foot circle in Palm Beach. There are probably 50 - 75 in Fernandina Beach. In Miami and Miami Beach, probably another 3 - 400.
The problem is that these laws will affect everyone -- if you took the time to read and comprehend them as I have, you'd see that.

No, these laws don't affect everyone. They affect less than 1% of coastal Florida and homesteaders versus cruisers.

And if you're foolish enough to think that 30 day limit won't be reduced, you're really foolish - because the 30 day limit is a reduction from the current 45 day limit.

Frankly, I would favor a 2 week limit. While I don't know this for a fact, most cruisers don't spend a week in the same anchorage. Those that do, are probably staying months. The difference is cruising versus homesteading. The reality is that these bills are designed to force people to move their boats, utilize pumpout facilities, and keep them from becoming derelicts. I really doubt that boaters would be hassled if they move their boat every 2 weeks (after stopping at the pumpout dock) to a different anchorage in the same county.

Personally, as a Florida resident, I would be in favor of requiring boats remaining in Florida 30 days, to buy an annual visitor's sticker equivalent to the cost of boat registration. Use the money to provide more docks for free pumpout, water tank filling, dinghy docks, and trash dumpsters. Also the money could be used for derelict boat removal and municipal mooring fields. IMO, there's a difference between transiting the state versus wintering in Florida.

Ted

 

[Don L]

Weebles likes to think he's smart, but when you ask him to prove it, he bails. Every time.

You pretty much lost all creditability with your school yard attacks.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Oh my goodness, now you're starting to tell the truth! So now 99% of Florida's anchorages aren't going away!



No, these laws don't affect everyone. They affect less than 1% of coastal Florida and homesteaders versus cruisers.


Frankly, I would favor a 2 week limit. While I don't know this for a fact, most cruisers don't spend a week in the same anchorage. Those that do, are probably staying months. The difference is cruising versus homesteading. The reality is that these bills are designed to force people to move their boats, utilize pumpout facilities, and keep them from becoming derelicts. I really doubt that boaters would be hassled if they move their boat every 2 weeks (after stopping at the pumpout dock) to a different anchorage in the same county.

Personally, as a Florida resident, I would be in favor of requiring boats remaining in Florida 30 days, to buy an annual visitor's sticker equivalent to the coast of boat registration. Use the money to provide more docks for free pumpout, water tank filling, dinghy docks, and trash dumpsters. Also the money could be used for derelict boat removal and municipal mooring fields. IMO, there's a difference between transiting the state versus wintering in Florida.

Ted

As a Florida resident, you don't seem to know your own regulations. After 90 days in the state, a vessel must register in the state. No need for a "visitor's sticker", and why would you want the extra hassles and cost anyhow?
"While I don't know this for a fact"... That's right, you don't. I do. I cruise full time and have done so for over 20 years. Most cruisers spend more than a week in many locations. They want to explore, to relax, to visit, maybe get some boat work done... or are waiting out bad weather to cross to the Bahamas. You can easily get caught for more than two weeks when the weather goes sideways, as it often does this time of year.
As for wintering in Florida - hundreds of thousands of people do exactly that every winter. Some of us do it on a boat. It contributes hugely to your economy. I suggest you read "Anchoring a Solution" and see what you can learn from it.

 

[Jklotz]

This came out yesterday. I found it quite informative:

 

[mvweebles]

I have spent the best part of the last 8 years full time boating in Florida, both coasts, and crossing over to the Bahamas. I understand the problem.

Lets be clear the Florida boat problem has been caused by boaters abusing the current laws. Florida is basically the wild west of anchoring and any POS boat can and does anchor here. Between the abandoned boats and the liveaboard boats that are like floating trash piles, boaters have caused this problem. Yes there are anchored and liveaboard boats that are reasonable people, but those aren't the problem yet they now have to suffer the effects. There are many anchoring locations in FL when I didn't anchor at because of the other boats that are basically just scum on boats.

Every proposed law that tries to fix or just address the issue gets called a violation of boaters "rights". But those "rights" they complain about only exist in Florida because there aren't really any laws. There are only a few "anchor friendly" towns in all of Florida and at all out them you see the problem, its the boat scum that are the floating version of a 3rd class trailer.

In all my time boating in Florida I NEVER have had a FWC or sheriff stop or even come up to me to talk. The LEOs aren't interested in hassling true cruiser and responsible boaters.

Good post Don. Encapsulates the situation well. Thanks

Peter

 

[Canuck Sailor]

You pretty much lost all creditability with your school yard attacks.

I'm tired of Weebles constant attacks. He won't engage on the issue, just posts ad hominems

 

[psneeld]

This came out yesterday. I found it quite informative:

Thanks, seems AGLCA and I agree about a lot of things and glad they are actively lobbying.

Seems they lean towards the concept that cruisers are movers and squatters are just that.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

This came out yesterday. I found it quite informative:

Excellent video, thank you for posting it. The seaport bill is 594, not 592. The 5000 feet setoffs are already documented on the Saving Florida's Anchorages, Kim is welcome to use them if she wishes.
As for supporting SB 164, I can't agree with Kim on this. There are significant issues that the bill will create that affect all boaters. In particular, SB 164 permits local rulemaking ""empower local governments to establish stricter anchoring zones in heavily impacted regions", which we fought to end back in 2006/7, because of the issues it created.
I can't believe that Kim missed that issue in this bill. I am certainly going to point it out to her and the rest of the coalition.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Thanks, seems AGLCA and I agree about a lot of things and glad they are actively lobbying.

Seems they lean towards the concept that cruisers are movers and squatters are just that.

Yes, that is their lean - and by ignoring the reality of boating in Florida, it continues to fail to solve the problems. It's that simple. You have to address all the boats and boaters. Solutions that work for just one cohort are simply not going to work, just as they have not for decades now. Why do we want to keep making the same mistake over and over again?

 

[O C Diver]

As a Florida resident, you don't seem to know your own regulations. After 90 days in the state, a vessel must register in the state. No need for a "visitor's sticker", and why would you want the extra hassles and cost anyhow?

The above law isn't enforced for seasonal residents (boats that come for the winter).

My proposal for a seasonal pass (not a registration), could be a simple online pass, not a proof of ownership registration, no different than buying a county parking permit.

"While I don't know this for a fact"... That's right, you don't. I do. I cruise full time and have done so for over 20 years. Most cruisers spend more than a week in many locations.
They want to explore, to relax, to visit, maybe get some boat work done... or are waiting out bad weather to cross to the Bahamas. You can easily get caught for more than two weeks when the weather goes sideways, as it often does this time of year.

Apparently you know very little about cruising to the Bahamas. Most winter cruisers left for the Bahamas in November or December, not February.

You keep confusing the modest number of boaters wintering in Florida with the thousands cruising through and around Florida year round.

As for wintering in Florida - hundreds of thousands of people do exactly that every winter. Some of us do it on a boat. It contributes hugely to your economy.

Yes, most of the people wintering on land or in marinas or mooring fields contribute to the cost through taxes on accommodations. Boaters who only anchor, contribute little.

Ted

 

[Don L]

Yes, that is their lean - and by ignoring the reality of boating in Florida, it continues to fail to solve the problems. It's that simple. You have to address all the boats and boaters. Solutions that work for just one cohort are simply not going to work, just as they have not for decades now. Why do we want to keep making the same mistake over and over again?

Like I wrote on another forum you have going. Few are going to read your 28 page story )I'm not). We have read these threads for years. Post a short to the point 30 sec to read summary of your "solution".

Will interesting to see your answer that cruisers, liveaboards, boaters, landowners, cities/towns will like.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

The above law isn't enforced for seasonal residents (boats that come for the winter).

My proposal for a seasonal pass (not a registration), could be a simple online pass, not a proof of ownership registration, no different than buying a county parking permit.





Apparently you know very little about cruising to the Bahamas. Most winter cruisers left for the Bahamas in November or December, not February.

You keep confusing the modest number of boaters wintering in Florida with the thousands cruising through and around Florida year round.



Yes, most of the people wintering on land or in marinas or mooring fields contribute to the cost through taxes on accommodations. Boaters who only anchor, contribute little.

Ted

It's not enforced? Tell that to the FWC officer who told me while I was in Melbourne that I had to register once I was over the time limit. I'm seasonal.
As for the Bahamas - boaters leave for the Bahamas anytime from late November through to April. Just run on down to No Name Harbor, or Palm Beach, and see the boats waiting for a weather window. And I've done the crossing over 20 times, so I think I'm well aware of what is happening.
As for boaters at anchor because there are too few slips in Florida - you want to penalize them because of something they have no control over?
You are not a serious or well informed person.

 

[Canuck Sailor]

Like I wrote on another forum you have going. Few are going to read your 28 page story )I'm not). We have read these threads for years. Post a short to the point 30 sec to read summary of your "solution".

Will interesting to see your answer that cruisers, liveaboards, boaters, landowners, cities/towns will like.

If I thought a 30 second response could answer all the questions, I'd have given a 30 second response. The situation is FAR more complex that what your attention span can handle clearly. How about you bow out of the discussion if you don't want to inform yourself on the issues?

 

[Don L]

If I thought a 30 second response could answer all the questions, I'd have given a 30 second response. The situation is FAR more complex that what your attention span can handle clearly. How about you bow out of the discussion if you don't want to inform yourself on the issues?

Lets be clear, in your opinion anyone not accepting your solution is uninformed. Meanwhile what it really comes down to is YOU don't like the solutions that don't support YOUR wants. On other thread you said my 2 things were not workable, but they 100% were you just didn't like them.

I have been reading they Florida anchoring threads for 20 years and I lived them for 8 years. I surely am an idiot.

 

[Don L]

The "rights" of the many outweigh the "rights" of the few and given that it was the many that granted the few their "rights" it should be expected that the many rewrite the "rights" because of "few" abuse.

Bet if there was a $300 cruising permit for 90 days in Florida cruisers would go crazy.