European wiring vs. US

[Wtrguy]

While researching an Integrity 45 (built in Australia it seems) for sale, it was noted that the onboard electrical operates on the European 230v system. While converted to accept 120v shore power in the US, I'm curious what other issues come with this type setup. Would changing basic electrical components be problematic? I have zero experience with European wiring so any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Kevin

 

[Serene]

I am in no way an expert, but my understanding is that voltage won't be an issue if you have a transformer, but the frequency can be a problem. Australia uses 50Hz and USA uses 60Hz. Some equipment, such as motors, pumps, etc. will run faster on 60Hz, but other such as clocks will lose precision.

Check your transformer to see if it converts frequency as well as voltage.

But you will also probably have an issue with 230V/50Hz appliances on board when they need to be replaced. You won't be able to use off the shelf 110V/60Hz stuff from the USA.

 

[Serene]

Also the plugs for Australia are different to the USA, so all of the on-board equipment will have Australian plugs.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I can't say I fully understand the technical details of converting from EU to USA wiring. I did help my employer purchase a Scotish built boat and get it ready for work in the US. I see you are in the PNW. Elmore Electric is well versed in the conversion. It will be well worth your time talking with Elmore.

It's far more than voltage, frequency and plug differences. Many technical decisions to make. TF member Kkee Wyck has been through and may be able to offer some insight.

 

[Insequent]

Well, it depends. If the conversion was to add an isolation transformer operating as a voltage step-up device and your appliance receptacles still have 230V then it will mostly be OK. This is the most likely way it was done. But note comments above on frequency issues when under inductive loads (motors). For resistive loads such as toasters, there would be no issues. For any replacement or new appliances you would need to source/import 230V ones.

However, if the conversion was done so as to produce 120V at your receptacles, plugging in US appliances can lead to issues unless the entire boat was re-wired. For a given power draw a US appliance will suck double the amps of a 230V Australia/Euro appliance, The wiring wasn't designed to handle that, and you could exceed its rating. Potential fire hazard etc.

 

[CharlieJ]

Check your transformer to see if it converts frequency as well as voltage.

A couple of comments:

• Transformers do not convert frequency.
• Not all onboard equipment will accept dual frequency input. Some sophisticated equipment will not even start if fed the “other" frequency.

 

[twistedtree]

A couple of comments:

• Transformers do not convert frequency.
• Not all onboard equipment will accept dual frequency input. Some sophisticated equipment will not even start if fed the “other" frequency.

In addition, Euro single phase grounding and bonding is the same as US 120V grounding and bonding so 120V 60hz to 230V 50hz isn't too hard. However US 240V split phase grounding and bonding is different, and needs to be reviewed very carefully for a 230V 50hz to 240V 60hz conversion.

 

[Wtrguy]

Thanks to all for the input. Just curious, are there many boats in the US that operate on the EU system or is it a rarity? It seems as our world becomes smaller, these systems would eventually need to start playing nice together.

Kevin

 

[Portage_Bay]

Thanks to all for the input. Just curious, are there many boats in the US that operate on the EU system or is it a rarity? It seems as our world becomes smaller, these systems would eventually need to start playing nice together.

Kevin

Most of the EU boats operating in the US that I am aware of are work boats. I doubt the EU and North American systems will really play well together. We're talking changes to both grids.

There are clearly posters on this thread who are more technically savvy that I. I will add a few comments.

For household type appliances we simply ordered EU appliances through Amazon. Cheap? No. But no changes need to be made, wiring or cabinetry. Considerable $$ saved there vs fitting US appliances.

Many plug in devices, laptop, tablets, phone etc will work out of the box on EU or US circuits, read the fine print on the device's charger.

Elmore, and I'm sure others as well, used Victron gear for the modifications. It's off the shelf stuff, what matters as always is the knowledge to install and correctly set it up.

The short version is we kept all the EU household appliances. All of the EU electric motors. The EU generators. Those parts of the boat worked as they did in Scotland. The boat was a purpose built Scottish fisheries research vessel being converted to a US operated oceanographic research vessel. So the basic functionality of the electrical system was not changed much. Additional US power including wiring and outlets was added to support the US based research equipment and some circuits for personal use.

My involvement with that boat ended shortly after she was put into service because I retired. I have not kept up with any additional changes made since then but I know she's still out on the water and working well. RV Rachel Carson

For those who are curious about why we brought a Scottish boat home to work in the US. It was all about money and capability. We spent a lot of time and effort trying to find a suitable boat in the US or have a US boat built that would meet the needs. Nothing could come close to the asking price for this one.

 

[Flatswing]

However, if the conversion was done so as to produce 120V at your receptacles, plugging in US appliances can lead to issues unless the entire boat was re-wired. For a given power draw a US appliance will suck double the amps of a 230V Australia/Euro appliance, The wiring wasn't designed to handle that, and you could exceed its rating. Potential fire hazard etc.

This is the most critical safety issue. If the AC wiring was not upgraded to 14AWG, (or 12 AWG) for 15A 125v circuits, I would avoid this boat unless you are prepared to rewire or use Australian/Euro appliances

 

[Wtrguy]

Many of your responses explain to me why this vessel is still on the market and at a seemingly reasonable price. While I'm no stranger to electrical work, there are far too many other nice boats on the market to buy into such a project.
Thanks again for everyone's input!

 

[Boatcrazy]

We sail an Asian-made boat...same power as EU;230v, 50Hz. Once we left Asia, and the Medd, we ran into the problems you are describing. We've found that everthing onboard runs on 50Hz or 60Hz power. No issues! But know that watts=volts x amps. So if you try to use a 120v appliance, it will draw twice the amps than the 230v appliance. And, as mentioned, the installed wire runs may, or may not be up to that amperage. We installed a Victron 120v-230v Isolation Transformer for when we're plugged into a marina. It is limited to 3600w, and will burn out if you exceed that load by much....ask me how I know! The other issue is that the xfmr is actually a 2.05:1 xfmr. So, if the shore power is 110v, it puts out 225v-not a problem. But when the shore power goes to 130v, now its output is 266v!!! The marina we frequent has shore power that ranges from 105v to 135v....the output voltage varies as I mentioned, and since w=v x a, and the Victron xfmr is limited to 3600w, we are forced to really watch that shore voltage and "manage" our onboard useage/load when plugged in. Our genset is a 230v,50Hz machine, so once we're away from the dock-no issues! Some years ago I did install a 1000w 230v in/115v out xfmr, for a couple of galley and head 120v outlets; our US-made microwave(1000w) (120v60Hz)runs via a dedicated 1200w xfmr for 120v.....it works just fine on 50Hz or 60Hz. FWIW, we just finished our 10th season in the US Caribb; it can be done!

 

[Boatcrazy]

Sorry, forgot to mention.....230v EU power is a 3-wire setup (hot, neutral, and grnd). Very similar to a conventional 120v system. BUT...US 220v, or 240v power is a 4-wire setup (2 hots, nuetral, and ground). A very different animal, and NOT interchangeable. Hire and electrician, someone who knows what theyare doing, and be very careful trying to go from an EU-230v, 3-wire system to a US-220 or 240v, 4-wire system!

 

[MVDestiny]

If the boat was built in Australia (rather than being converted later to EU standard) then it will be through and through 220V/50Hz setup. All the machinery, electrical equipment, wiring will be just fine internally - but you cannot plug in US appliances. The transformer will allow you to connect US shore power - but as mentioned above a simple transformer only converts voltage. We have an Atlas Marine Systems style "box" on our EU spec built trawler - this converts voltage, frequency and has a galvanic isolator. Basically, it takes whatever you throw at it and converts it to stable 230V/50Hz output to the ship. The boat is designed to be able to cruise anywhere in the world - it's only the USA that has the 120/110V and 60Hz setup - the rest of the world is "normal" . There are some exceptions - like here in the Philippines the supply is 220V but frequency is 60Hz - so a bit of an anomaly. Our box deals with whatever - although there is power loss of around 20% in the conversion. The box is also pretty big and heavy - so not feasible on smaller boats. Our 65ft Selene is just about OK with it.

If the boat you are looking at has this type of box - then everything will work just fine, wherever you plug it in. However, all appliances and machinery inside the boat will need to be sourced outside of the USA when they need replacement. Note that many household devices are able to cope with 110/2220V and 50/60Hz - so look at the labels.

I would say if you intend to cruise only in the USA then you'd be better of finding a boat that was built to US standard. If you plan to cruise outside of the USA, then you will probably be glad that it has EU specification and a transformer box.

 

[Wtrguy]

I would say if you intend to cruise only in the USA then you'd be better of finding a boat that was built to US standard. If you plan to cruise outside of the USA, then you will probably be glad that it has EU specification and a transformer box.

Right now the plan is US west coast with transits through Canada to AK. We'll need to step up to a larger boat if plans change. That said, plans certainly have a way of changing. Thanks for the input!

 

[twistedtree]

I'll just point out that split phase power is really a North American thing, not just the US. Canada, the US, Mexico all use the same system. Also a variety of scattered countries around the world. I'm not trying to defend split phase, just clarify where it exists.

There are a variety of ways to "cross power" a boat ranging from a shore power converter like MVDestiny, to much simpler approaches, and everything in between. The important thing is that it takes very careful thought and planning, and a really good understanding of both power systems, especially how they are grounded and bonded. Hearing how others have done it can be informative, but make sure whoever is digesting the info and designing the system is really qualified to do it.

 

[CharlieJ]

@twistedtree #16
Very, very sage advice!

 

[Mambo42]

I think your biggest problem will be finding spare parts for an EU spec boat in the US. Basically everything needs to be flown in and even the connectors are different. I recently bought oil coolers from American Diesel, but they came with US thread, so cannot use them in Europe. Searched all over Europe for the correct connectors, could not find them, so had to buy new oil coolers again. I guess if I would have EU thread or electrical equipment in the US, I would also have a hard time finding parts or even equipment itself.
Not a problem if you can wait somewhere for parts to be flown in, but when you cannot even buy a simple hose that will fit then it becomes pretty annoying.
The electricity supply problem can be solved, but you will need not only a transformer, you will also need a frequency converter and those are extremely expensive.
As a aid memoir, you can run 60 Hz equipment on a 50 Hz supply, but you cannot run a 50 Hz item on 60 Hz supply. You will ruin it in no time. With running 60 Hz on a 50 Hz supply you need to realize that everything has about 16 % less power, meaning a compressor puts out 16.5 % less capacity, a clock runs 16.5 % slower etc etc.

On the island of Curacao they actually came up with an even more weird power supply, 127 V at 50 Hz. We used to let a transformer take it down to 110 V, but there was nothing we could do about the frequency, so most of the time everything would break down within 2 or 3 years.

 

[Wtrguy]

Hearing how others have done it can be informative, but make sure whoever is digesting the info and designing the system is really qualified to do it.

It's okay, my dad was an electrician!

In all seriousness, I've done both commercial and residential wiring, and I still wouldn't attempt to rewire a boat from another Country with components I know very little about. Knowing that bad wiring typically result in bad fires is enough to make me use a professional.

That said, I'm not interested in buying into any retrofits. We want to step on board and disappear into the sunset.

 

[Wtrguy]

@twistedtree #16
Very, very sage advice!

Agreed!

 

[klee wyck]

I see you are in the PNW, as I am. You will not need AC and you can heat with diesel, so AC loads are not huge and should be manageable on an inverter.
I have owned two Euro boats in the PNW. The first had been converted, to include new wire runs, and was essentially a US boat in electrical terms. It can be done. Not simple or cheap.
The second boat I brought from Europe myself. I chose not to convert it. It had a limited number of AC loads that were all manageable by a 5kW inverter. Frig, Freezer, microwave, toaster, coffee etc. I never had to load manage. The Euro appliances that I wanted to add or update could be delivered to my home by Amazon in a matter of a few days. I ran small travel inverters in the Euro AC outlets for phones, laptops etc just because I was too lazy to put in DC USB ports. It all worked just fine.
The only major change was to put in a smart charger that could recognize and use shore power in both US and Euro configuration to charge the large house bank. The generator on the vessel already put out Euro configured power in both 230 and 400 volt 50 hz to run the house and charge the house bank.
I would do it again in a heartbeat for the right boat.

 

[Wtrguy]

I would do it again in a heartbeat for the right boat

Maybe this one's right for you!

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2012-integrity-45-9055906/

And for the record, we're stuck inland in the Columbia Gorge right now. We'll be heading back your way just as soon as we finish this house and sell it. Will look you up once we get on the water!

If that boat had a washer/dryer, it would check enough boxes for serious consideration. If that was all it needed I might consider a small inverter to run those and a few outlets. I keep coming back to the fact that there are a few other boats out there that meet our criteria without buying into retrofits. I appreciate the encouragement though!

 

[Andy G]

"While researching an Integrity 45 (built in Australia it seems) for sale"

I'm just wondering how did a 45' Integrity , built in Australia end up in the PNW?

Actually, I wasn't aware any Integrity's were ever built in Australia.

Bruce may chime in on this one.

 

[Wtrguy]

I knew nothing about them until this one. A cursory internet search turned up this website which I assumed was the outfit that manufactured this one.
www.integrityboats.com.au
As the boat was wired for 230v it just appeared to me that it came from a European builder.

 

[Serene]

I don't think Integrity's are built in Australia. I am pretty sure they will be built in Asia someplace for an Australian dealership and with Australian specifications.

To be honest not much is built in Australia these days!

 

[Insequent]

I don't think Integrity's are built in Australia. I am pretty sure they will be built in Asia someplace for an Australian dealership and with Australian specifications.

To be honest not much is built in Australia these days!

Not sure that Riviera or Maritimo, amongst others, are going to agree with you. Unless of course you rank Riv's as "not much" !!!

 

[Serene]

Not sure that Riviera or Maritimo, amongst others, are going to agree with you. Unless of course you rank Riv's as "not much" !!!

LOL yeah true! I was thinking more generally across all industries.