Engine nightmare

[gonesailing13]

Got a call the other day from our marina, they wanted to know if we were on the boat. I told them no and asked why. Seems our boat engine was running. What ? The boat was all locked up and winterized for the winter. Since we live three hours away I had to figure out a way for them to get on board which we did. Checked the ignition,off, tried the stop button but nothing. Finally had them open up the floor boards to get to the engine. Was eventually able to explain where the shut off was located on the engine and they got it to stop. After a three hour race to the marina I talked to a few people who told me they were guessing the engine had been running for at least six hours, maybe longer, nobody was sure. So the engine run for 6+ hours with the raw water thru hull closed. Checked the oil and it was still full, antifreeze not so much. Found it to be about half empty which explained the smell. Pulled the impeller out to find it almost gone. Not sure wear it went but the first place I have to look is the oil cooler. Checked the heat exchanger but nothing there. Put a new impeller in and wanted to see if it would start. Started right up but noticed no water coming out the exhaust so shut it down. Again had to shut it down with the kill switch on the engine. So here’s all my problems, First why did the engine start on it’s own. I guessing maybe a short in the starter. Second where did the impeller go. Third was there any damage to the engine itself. Sent a oil sample out for analysis and came back showing some signs of copper and iron. Not real high but high enough for concern. They suggest I take another sample in about fifty hours to compare. So I guess my question is it safe to run the engine this spring. Don’t want to cause any more damage. Not sure what to fix first. The stop button I think is just a faulty relay, happened to me about five years ago, easy fix. Any suggestions?

 

[Cigatoo]

Sounds like a short in the starter. The stop button and ignition could be wired to the house bank which is probably turned off. Our GB is wired that way. The start battery only powers the starter. Starter solenoid and Everything else is wired to the house.

 

[rslifkin]

My biggest concern would be damage to any non metallic parts in the exhaust system.

 

[kthoennes]

Yikes. Doesn't address the phantom starting problem -- which would scare the daylights out of me -- but just wondering, your winterization leaves the batteries connected? Our marina always disconnects them. I've always assumed they tend to bleed down a little less disconnected. A lot of owners remove them entirely and store them in a heated place with trickle chargers, but I've not been in the mood to wrestle with all five of them every spring and fall.

 

[PhilPB]

My slip neighbor had a similar phantom start issue recently when the boat was on the hard. His problem was that water found its way into the ignition switch and started the motor. This was on a brand new Cummins.

I had an intermittent starter issue when my old Perkins was running...the starter would engage while running. When the second mechanic came out to successfully diagnose the problem, it was the engine harness was shorting out on the block (ignition signal wire insulation was worn through).

I also had a problem with my stop button(s) not working from either station during the "starter" problem. Turned out that the ignition signal wire short also fried the inline 30a fuse. Replaced the fuse after the wire harness repair and all is now good...until the next "opportunity" repair!!

 

[tiltrider1]

Does this boat have a flybridge and are there start buttons up there? It is not uncommon for flybridge buttons to become corroded, a little rain and rust and suddenly there is a new electrical path that is enough to tell the relay to start the engine. Ignition off means nothing to a diesel engine.

Your raw water impellor being toast is what I would expect. Missing coolant may or may not be a concern. At idle diesels do not make much heat. Possible that you boiled away the coolant with out doing any damage. Overheating and warping a heat is my real concern. Doing a coolant pressure test would give us some indication of this potential.

I would first do a coolant pressure test. If it holds pressure I then would follow up with a Hydrocarbon in the coolant test. If you pass both of these I would think you were good to go. If you fail either of these then we need to find the point of failure to understand more.

 

[psneeld]

Notify your insurance company.

The engine if damaged may be covered.

You don't have to file a claim....yet...but it is good to have this note in your file.

 

[O C Diver]

What engine do you have in your boat?

Not sure how your panel is wired, but on mine, the key switch has to be turned on to supply power to the starter button which directly activates the solenoid on the starter. So even if something puts power to the computer, and it feeds power to the key switch, you still have to close contacts on the start button. Having the starter circuit require a mechanical switch activation to the starter solenoid without going through a computer, seems to be an extremely well thought out system.

Ted

 

[Mambo42]

I agree with all the items already mentioned before, but just to point out a few other important steps to take.

Make sure you clean the oil cooler and heat exchanger, then have them pressure tested. The temperatures must have been high, so the metal may show some fatigue.

Next come the exhaust hose. The water usually cools those hoses as well, chances are they are burned on the inside, so better to change it all out or at least have it tested rigorously.

If you have a water lock muffler (not sure how to call it in English) you may want to have that one also pressure tested and checked out, also in there the temperatures have been high.

After that you get to the exhaust manifold and elbow. The temperatures in the manifold must have been very high as well, especially since the coolant was half gone, which could result in cracks.

Lastly I would have a mechanic check the raw water pump very well.

As a precaution for a possible next time I would place a battery isolating switch (for the engine) near all your other battery switches, so that there is no way power can ever get to the engine without that switch being in the ON position.
I had the same set up as you, in my case some moron decided to start the engines with the sea cocks closed and as a result I had to change both my engines. One was completely seized, the other one was smoking heavily (and I had just almost completely rebuilt them). So if your engine is still running you had a lot of luck.

Hope you can get it sorted before the new season and I must say your marina did a good job in noticing it. In my case the marina claims they have no clue who was on my boat, while they were the only ones with the keys to the boat.

 

[twistedtree]

Until you figure out why is started, you should disconnect power to the started. Do you have a start battery disconnect switch? If you do, just make sure that it doesn't also kill power to your bilge pump.


Is your raw water intake open, or was that closed for the winter? Maybe that's why you don't have any water flow? If it were open, I would have expected your impeller to be fine, so I'm thinking it was closed?



Someone also mentioned checking your exhaust, and I think this is VERY important. Without any raw water flow it's very likely that the exhaust components overheated downstream of where raw water is injected. If damaged, it creates a path for water to fill the boat both from the raw water intake when the engine is running, and from the exhaust thruhull when just sitting in the water. If there was no raw water during this run event, I would remove EVERY piece of exhaust hose down stream of the injection point, carefully inspect it, and probably just replace them all. Also inspect any fiberglass tubes or elbows.


As for the impeller parts, you will have to open up your raw water system, especially the ends of the heat exchanger, and go searching for impeller parts.


Depending on your deductible, this does indeed sound like a ligitimate insurance claim, and it should cover replacing exhaust hoses.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I would shut the fuel off in the future also. Even if it phantom starts it won't run long.

 

[LovetoBoat]

Is your engine gasoline or diesel?
Any water in your bilge?

 

[DDW]

I always shut off the fuel feed, and turn the engine disconnect to OFF, eliminating power to the starter. If it starts in that condition, you've got Poltergeists. On a diesel, if there is fuel and power to the starter there are a few faults that can make it start.

In addition to the other things mentioned, I'd have a mechanic check the compression. The bearings and rings should be fine as long as there was oil. If the engine overheated, damage to the head gasket or a warped head might be the first tell tales. Either one likely to cause compression problems. Then make an insurance claim.

 

[SteveK]

Wow, 2nd thread of engine starting itself today, the other thread flooded bilge shorted starter and started the engine. What was the cause here.

BTW, all the starters I have seen have a heavy positive cable direct to the battery from starter and the push button or ignition key turn just activates a relay. In effect power at starter 24/7.

 

[Blissboat]

As a precaution for a possible next time I would place a battery isolating switch (for the engine) near all your other battery switches, so that there is no way power can ever get to the engine without that switch being in the ON position.

That was going to be my first question. My practice has always been to switch the engine start batteries to the "Off" position when the boat is unattended. It's a theft deterrent, at least to the uninitiated, but also a first line of defense against stealth battery drainage and other electrical gremlins anywhere in the vicinity of the starting circuit.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, I need to do that too.

I have 2 house batteries on a 1-2-all-none Perko and 3 on-off toggles for port & starboard engines and generator. None of the engine batteries need to be on except when running the engines but the house needs to be on to run the bilge pumps.

 

[gonesailing13]

Forgot to mention the engine is a 135hp Lehman, no water in the bilge

 

[slowgoesit]

Is your raw water intake open, or was that closed for the winter? Maybe that's why you don't have any water flow? If it were open, I would have expected your impeller to be fine, so I'm thinking it was closed?

He stated in post # 1:
"So the engine run for 6+ hours with the raw water thru hull closed."

 

[MVDarlin]

I dont understand why all the concern about overheating. A phantom start would not cause the engine to overheat if raw water valves were open. Did I miss something besides impellers being toast. I once found 12 impeller blades in the the heat exchanger for the gen set. Note the number 12. Inoelker gas 6 blades. Someone before me had changed a broken impeller twice without going upstream far enough to find the broken blades. So much mischief can be done by folks without good mechanical skills.

 

[Mambo42]

I dont understand why all the concern about overheating.

In the beginning it was stated that the boat was already winterized and the sea cocks were closed. The internal cooling did function, but the coolant did not get cooled, so then you have a risk of overheating. Especially when the engine had been running for 6 hours as I understand from the story.

 

[Bacchus]

"Did I miss something" yes reread OP

 

[Cold Duck]

We had a starter engage at night in a jeep in granny gear trying to back out of the garage by itself, but engine never fired. Relationship? Shorts can happen all by themselves. We call it FM (bleaping Magic). Also, I lost the raw water pump in my 3116 Cat in the MS350. As long as I idled, the engine would run and not overheat for a long time (hour or so) without a raw water pump which was your situation, and mine was starting from an overheat alarm state. Was able to idle to dock, took 3 hours but we got there. The point, if your engine was just idling without the raw water pump for a while there most likely was no damage since it was starting from a cold start. Hope that makes you feel a little better.

 

[rgano]

Just another caution here about the exhaust system and possible carbon monoxide dangers due to leaks. Hopefully you have current and working CO detectors aboard. I would not trust the system until it was replaced out of an ABUNDANCE of caution.

 

[jleonard]

I've witnessed that happening twice in my limited experience.

Once a backhoe that was digging a hole in the factory floor for a press foundation fired up by itself on a saturday morning when the digging crew was off. It flashed lights 2 times then started. One of our workers shut the fuel off to kill it. The starter solenoid shorted out.

One time my 1970 Dodge Dart started backing up the driveway (it was a standard tranny) on its own. The starter relay was located under the battery and had rusted/shorted out. I had to open the hood and pull the battery cable.