Drip Diesel Heater / Hydronic Question

[gplangham]

Hola! Requesting a sanity check.
I'm looking to install a Dickinson Antarctic or Refleks heater in my Kadey Krogen 42 in the salon, port side. My current vision is to plumb in the two-turn water coil and connect that circuit to my water heater/engine circuit and a couple radiators in the lower living areas. I'm trying to minimize electrical loads. I believe the heater will keep the salon and pilot house warm with appropriate fans. I also saw the low amp Dickinson style fan/radiators and thought a couple of those below would be great at night.
Is this achievable with the diesel drip heaters? Is it logical to think there would be enough heat/energy to supply two radiators and make some hot water in my isotemp? Not looking to survive in sub zero climates, but would like to head up to the San Juan's and maybe farther north in the summer/fall or spring. Has anybody done something similar? I get the full hydronic heat option, a la Wallas and the like, I know that would provide even heat, but as I mentioned, I'm tying minimize engine and gen run time. On the other hand, I don't want to install the extra radiators for no comfort return.

Thoughts?

Best, Jason

 

[O C Diver]

Having used bus heaters to heat my boat in 40 degree lake water, the simple answer is no without a circulating pump and a larger coil.

Another way to look at this is to understand that the amount of heat you want in the forward cabin area has to be equal or less than the water coils you plan to absorb the heat with.

So you will need to get a circulating pump in the loop and a substantial amount of heat absorption in the coils. Also understand that the hotter the radiators, the more heat they produce. 180 degrees in the radiator produces a great deal of heat. 80 degrees in the radiator doesn't produce squat.

Ted

 

[Mac2]

On my previous boat (Krogen Manatee) I had the Antarctic. I installed a heat exchanger with fan on the chimney pipe. This was an easy cheap way of doubling the heat. The stove will permeate your clothes with a diesel smell-worth it to me and I loved the viewing window. My five gallon water heater was looped into the engine (no pump). I also added a red dot heater (radiator) that I plumbed into the engine with the addition of a small circulation pump. Due to the isolated flybridge (the only helm) I added a hydronic heater. The red dot had a low/high fan. This was the only heat I needed when running plus I had all the hot water I needed. I believe you would get by with the two radiators with one small circulating pump inline. Depending on the location of your hot water heater ( mine was next to the engine) will determine if you need two separate loops with small pumps , or one loop with a bigger pump. My fan for the red dot and pump were tied to the same circuit. When I turned the fan on the pump would also come on.

 

[Jeff F]

I looked at a boat for sale with the Refleks system a year or two ago. My only concern was the size of the heater. IIRC the heater was about 5k BTU.

That's not a lot of total capacity for heating a bigger boat. I have a full hydronic system on my boat with 50k BTU boiler and 10k BTU electric.heating elements. When I'm running on electric only it doesn't have much heat capability. I can heat one cabin, but not the whole boat.

So a small system will work, but you don't have a lot of capacity. I'd be looking at the BTU of the furnace before building out a hydronic system around it. BTU requirement should match the temperatures you expect to be able to handle. With my 50k BTU boiler I can be comfortable in temperatures well below freezing. 10k BTU might work fine down to freezing. 5k BTU might be comfortable down to 45F.

My thoughts, FWIW.

 

[gplangham]

Thank you for these responses.... I will def need a circ pump and I'm pondering the BTU capacity. We're not looking at wintering over anywhere, but I do need enough for chilly fall and spring days in the Pac NW.

I don't like the comment of diesel smell permeating everything with the drip heater. Hope that's not everyones experience.

 

[sean9c]

I had a Dickinson Antarctic and a Hurricane hydronic system in my boat. Loved the Antarctic and the heat it put out. The Hurricane would heat the boat, the Antarctic made it warm and toasty, really pleasant heat. On my boat the Antarctic was in the aft cabin and the stack went up through the pilothouse. The stack puts off a ton of heat so it heated both spaces well.
I'd looked at putting the heating coils in my heater but couldn't wrap my head around the fact that you can't turn the water circulation off it just keeps circulating getting hotter and hotter as long as the heater is running.
I couldn't figure it out so I didn't do it. My Hurricane would heat the 6 gal in my water heater in 30 minutes from cold so that was easy.
A really simple thing that always blew me a way about the Antarctic is that you're getting all this nice heat and it silent and the amp draw is so low it doesn't even register.

 

[Mac2]

Is there any reason you don’t want to install a hydronic heater? I installed the below model in the Manatee (designed for semi truck cabs). Very small, but it’s good for at least 3 radiators.

Sean9c: Did the Antarctic permeate your clothes with a diesel smell? I didn’t notice the smell until I left the boat and started to do laundry at home.

 

[gplangham]

Is there any reason you don’t want to install a hydronic heater? I installed the below model in the Manatee (designed for semi truck cabs). Very small, but it’s good for at least 3 radiators.

Sean9c: Did the Antarctic permeate your clothes with a diesel smell? I didn’t notice the smell until I left the boat and started to do laundry at home.

I do like the dedicated hydronic heaters, but I'm tying to minimize amps. Doing an audit to see if the power draw is huge... I'd like to not have to spend an exta 100 amps a day if I don't have to, as I'm trying to stay in my solar budget... Any ideas what the total amps per hour or day are with with burner, pump, and radiators?

 

[Jeff F]

Any ideas what the total amps per hour or day are with with burner, pump, and radiators?

ITR has detailed specs on all the various draws. It's hard to generalize to RW because circ pumps and heater fans and the boiler all cycle at different rates.

I have a Hurricane Chinook system in a 50 ft uninsulated boat. When I'm keeping the whole boat warm in freezing temps I budget 2 kwh/day for the heat system if the engine isn't running. Haven't done detailed measurements. In the summer it's down to a few cycles for HW, maybe a few wh/day at rest, more if used.

A smaller capacity system or a better insulated boat would cut down fuel and power use, I'm sure. This should give you some guidance. Happy to discuss further.

 

[Jeff F]

Also understand that the hotter the radiators, the more heat they produce. 180 degrees in the radiator produces a great deal of heat. 80 degrees in the radiator doesn't produce squat.

This is important. My experience running my system on electric is that the system temperature drops as the heat source struggles to keep up. The radiators put out less heat until fluid temperature stabilizes where supply = demand. Turn off the radiator and fluid temp climbs back to spec.

Ted, I finally got my engine loop going correctly on my system. It works good. By my rough calculations I'm drawing a maximum of about 15k BTU from the engine while operating at normal cruise. Don't mean to divert the thread, but some of the old threads on this discussing your install were interesting.

This for me is a big plus for my use case. When I'm underway I turn off the boiler and have adequate heat and hw. When I have AC power I have HW and limited heat. At anchor or in extreme cold I turn on the boiler.

DDR is installing a new smaller version of my furnace, the Zephyr. I think that provides similar functionality. For the OP that's where I'd look first for a reference point.

 

[O C Diver]

This is important. My experience running my system on electric is that the system temperature drops as the heat source struggles to keep up. The radiators put out less heat until fluid temperature stabilizes where supply = demand. Turn off the radiator and fluid temp climbs back to spec.

Ted, I finally got my engine loop going correctly on my system. It works good. By my rough calculations I'm drawing a maximum of about 15k BTU from the engine while operating at normal cruise. Don't mean to divert the thread, but some of the old threads on this discussing your install were interesting.

This for me is a big plus for my use case. When I'm underway I turn off the boiler and have adequate heat and hw. When I have AC power I have HW and limited heat. At anchor or in extreme cold I turn on the boiler.

DDR is installing a new smaller version of my furnace, the Zephyr. I think that provides similar functionality. For the OP that's where I'd look first for a reference point.

Something to keep in mind is that flow (GPM) directly impacts heat output. I used an inline circulating pump that dramatically improved the engine circulating pump.

From recollection, 5 GPM was about the required amount for rated output of bus heaters. My three in series showed a serious decline by the 3rd heater. Once they were cycling and the water heater was hot, the 3rd heater was putting out nicely.

Ted

 

[Mac2]

I do like the dedicated hydronic heaters, but I'm tying to minimize amps. Doing an audit to see if the power draw is huge... I'd like to not have to spend an exta 100 amps a day if I don't have to, as I'm trying to stay in my solar budget... Any ideas what the total amps per hour or day are with with burner, pump, and radiators?

I would go to Sure marine in Ballard. They have helped me with both my hydronic installations. They carry all the various heaters as well for comparison. They will have installed hydronic heaters on the Krogen 42, so they will know what you need. They will need to know if you’re tying in the hot water tank and the number of zones (radiators) you need to determine the amp usage-fans, circulation pump, and fuel pump. I don’t recall my amp usage. I had four radiators: salon, flybridge, master stateroom, guest stateroom/head combo. Boiler could only keep up with two radiators on high. I would typically have one on high and two on low. Flybridge was off unless I was up there. At anchor I would use the Antarctic (I liked the visible flames) and supplemented with the hydronic. My house bank was 6 6v batteries. I ran the generator for about an hour a day at anchor with the above heaters in the winter. Not a big deal since I was making water anyway and heating my hot water tank (it was tied into the engine).

 

[sean9c]

Is there any reason you don’t want to install a hydronic heater? I installed the below model in the Manatee (designed for semi truck cabs). Very small, but it’s good for at least 3 radiators.

Sean9c: Did the Antarctic permeate your clothes with a diesel smell? I didn’t notice the smell until I left the boat and started to do laundry at home.

Diesel smell? No. If it is well tuned and burning cleanly there is no smell. The only time I would get a smell was right after lighting it. You don't have any heat in the stack to help the draft so it would leak a little smoke around the edges of the lid for the first few minutes. Once there was some heat in the stack it draws the smoke up the stack. Mine was an old Antarctic, I think the new ones seal better. It was not something that I worried about. Saying that you do have too fiddle with the throttle settings a little and pay attention to how it's burning in order to get it right. You don't just flip the switch and let it go. If that's what your looking for don't buy a drip feed heater. If my next boat is big enough it will have one.
My Hurricane was 30k btu's or so, between the pump and heater it would draw about 11 amps, I think the pump was 3gpm, which I think was spec'd, and was about half the amp draw.
Hydronic ain't cheap amp usage wise.

 

[Mac2]

Diesel smell? No. If it is well tuned and burning cleanly there is no smell. The only time I would get a smell was right after lighting it. You don't have any heat in the stack to help the draft so it would leak a little smoke around the edges of the lid for the first few minutes. Once there was some heat in the stack it draws the smoke up the stack. Mine was an old Antarctic, I think the new ones seal better. It was not something that I worried about. Saying that you do have too fiddle with the throttle settings a little and pay attention to how it's burning in order to get it right. You don't just flip the switch and let it go. If that's what your looking for don't buy a drip feed heater. If my next boat is big enough it will have one.
My Hurricane was 30k btu's or so, between the pump and heater it would draw about 11 amps, I think the pump was 3gpm, which I think was spec'd, and was about half the amp draw.
Hydronic ain't cheap amp usage wise.

I never smelled diesel when it was burning. Only when I left the boat did I smell the diesel in my clothes. I believe it was from the small amount of unburned diesel left over in the bowl after it was shut down. It was the smell of raw diesel-not burned. I didn’t mind it at all, but wanted to mention it for the OP. Glad to hear you didn’t experience this. Mine was an older Antarctic that was on the boat when I bought it. I only added the chimney heat exchanger.

 

[Lepke]

I've got a lot of time with diesel heaters and stoves. A small heater may provide enough heat, probably running on high to supply two radiators. If the stove is below the radiators you can plumb without a circulation pump. The lines to and from the radiators need to be insulated. Otherwise you are heating other areas on the way. The coolant coming back should be as high as possible to make reheating easier. You should put in valves so in the event of a leak it doesn't effect the engine. And when the engine is running, the circulation pump on the engine should be enough. Have smoke detectors and a remote fuel shutoff.
Some anti-freeze will be needed if the boat sits unheated in the winter in the PNW.
It doesn't need to smell like diesel, If the fittings and stove pipe are tight there will be no leaks and no smell.
Ditto for the engine.

 

[C lectric]

I had a Pacific diesel stove by Dickinson.

The tank, approx. 12 gallons, was overhead on the bridge inside the closed storage area. A filler was above for refills of fuel in the tank by a 5 gal. jug which I rigged to accept a hose that was secured into the filler with a 90 degree elbow.
It worked well , no diesel odour, spills unless I goofed up big time.
I always took a roll of the blue paper towel just in case. Never happened.

As for starting I would allow some diesel to bleed into the stove fire box at a setting of 3. When there was sufficient fuel for starting I would drop a lighted 1/2 paper towel or 1/2 of a blue paper shop towel and ensure the flame started. THen quickly install the stove top AND turn on the FAN to 3.
It will take a bit of practice o Learn how much fuel to fill the depression with, about 1/4" BUT don't fill enough to try to drain away.
Then the use of a piece of a paper towel to light and drop into fuel pool to light it.

I would check every few minutes to check how the fuel pool was doing and when it got almost down I turned the fan down to about 1 or 2 and let the stove attend to itself , heating as fuel was replaced. I never left the stove alone since inattention could cause a flare up if too much fuel beyond the starting and warming needs.

Yes, I installed a filter in the feed line from tank to stove.

Once reliably lit I would make adjustments for the level of heat.
Don't crank the fuel up to high or as Dickinson warned you could crack the top.
Once full warmed and the top plate heated the higher heat adjustments can be made.

You may still have a cooler Vberth than wanted but we never found that to be a big deal.

I have written this previously.