Docking with a spring line.

[mike66]

This is boating 101, but I had trouble today docking port side to with an aft spring line to my midship cleat. I hadn't tried it before with this boat (Albin 40 single screw). The bow came around into the dock and the stern kicked out in spite of me turning the wheel full to starboard. My suspicion is the cleat is too far forward. Before I add a new cleat, am I thinking properly?
Thanks all.

 

[rslifkin]

Yes, the cleat is likely too far forward.

 

[psneeld]

Describe the scenario better and I might be able to help.

I have never been a big proponent of a midship spring being the end all solution.

I like lots of combinations depending on conditions and some are definitely better than the "midship line panacea" that some like to think is always the best answer.

I like coming up to a dock and seeing what I really have to work with. Every time I tried to have fenders out and lines placed before entering a marina often backfired and occasionally and the dumbest thing one can do is NOT change your plan of attack and proceed with the plan with what you already have out.

For me, where I need to be and where there are pilings or cleats near where I have to go control many options.

Sometimes an after bow spring or a short stern line will work better in the described situation than anything tied to a midship cleat.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Captain taught us to back into dock and loop the dock cleat and secure the line to the stern cleat on the boat. Then bump forward and wait until the line just tightens and clutch forward. Always works great.

Yeah, use the stern cleat.

 

[jleonard]

My plan #1 was always to use the midship cleat when docking in a side to situation.
Never really had a problem with the stern kicking out.
Maybe my cleat was far enough aft

 

[Lollygag1]

I was taught to use the stern line. Recently had to put this to use as we had a strong wind pushing us the wrong way. Got the admiral to throw the stern line over a dock cleat and then pulled forward which straightened the bow and let me get into the slip.

 

[ranger58sb]

My suspicion is the cleat is too far forward.

I agree that's what it sounds like.

Before installing another cleat, you could try using an aft cleat for an after spring line, see if that works better for you.

Or try a forward spring on your midships cleat, power in reverse, see how that does.

May be other options, too...

-Chris

 

[wkearney99]

I agree that's what it sounds like.

I concur that, as mike66 described the situation, the pulling moment using that cleat isn't far enough astern to get the desired result.

Before installing another cleat, you could try using an aft cleat for an after spring line, see if that works better for you.

Or try a forward spring on your midships cleat, power in reverse, see how that does.

Installing another cleat, especially one that's going to be used in a high loading situation like this, is not as simple as just drilling some holes. The forces involved have to be distributed, typically though a backing plate, and the adjacent fiberglass has to be able to further withstand the pulling forces. Otherwise the risk of a cleat breaking loose and becoming a projectile presents some serious risks of injury.

 

[CaptTom]

Captain taught us to back into dock and loop the dock cleat and secure the line to the stern cleat on the boat. Then bump forward and wait until the line just tightens and clutch forward. Always works great.

Yeah, use the stern cleat.

I had to double-check to be sure this wasn't posted by one of my clients. I always teach the stern cleat trick, in addition to the "traditional" spring line from a mid-ship cleat. On some boats the mid cleat placement isn't good for this anyway.

 

[rslifkin]

I tend to prefer the midship spring over a stern spring, simply because the line can typically be cleated on the dock very close to where one of us can step on and off the boat (making things easier). On my boat, the spring cleats are a bit too far forward but just manageable. Dock side engine only in forward and almost full rudder is typically enough to hold the boat flat against the dock.

 

[psneeld]

Being able to use many types and sizes of spring lines is the trick... conditions and boats can be all over the place when it comes to precision handling.

Learning to adjust them while using them is also invaluable to get the boat where you want it over accepting the initial setup.

Sure it takes practice... getting good at anything usually does.

The alternative is a pair of strong thrusters.

 

[bowball]

Captain taught us to back into dock and loop the dock cleat and secure the line to the stern cleat on the boat. Then bump forward and wait until the line just tightens and clutch forward. Always works great.

Yeah, use the stern cleat.

I’m having trouble visualizing this.

You are using your stern cleat but backed in and going forward is bringing your bow in?

So that means the spring is attached on the dock at the stern end too? For your pivot point for forward motion to be effective?

If so, that leaves your bow uncontrolled until you are all the way into the slip? Why does this provide more control than a forward spring might be better backing down? My temporary situation has a boat a few feet away but I just use both engines currently.

 

[ranger58sb]

Captain taught us to back into dock and loop the dock cleat and secure the line to the stern cleat on the boat. Then bump forward and wait until the line just tightens and clutch forward. Always works great.

Yeah, use the stern cleat.

I’m having trouble visualizing this.

You are using your stern cleat but backed in and going forward is bringing your bow in?

So that means the spring is attached on the dock at the stern end too? For your pivot point for forward motion to be effective?

If so, that leaves your bow uncontrolled until you are all the way into the slip? Why does this provide more control than a forward spring might be better backing down? My temporary situation has a boat a few feet away but I just use both engines currently.

I suspect he probably doesn't mean to back in completely perpendicular to a face dock or finger pier... probably means just get the stern closer enough to get a line on a dock cleat.

Once the line is on, slight forward power (maybe a little bump at a time) will usually bring that side of the boat against the dock or finger...

And that single "stern" line is acting like an aft spring.

-Chris

 

[Nomad Willy]

This is boating 101, but I had trouble today docking port side to with an aft spring line to my midship cleat. I hadn't tried it before with this boat (Albin 40 single screw). The bow came around into the dock and the stern kicked out in spite of me turning the wheel full to starboard. My suspicion is the cleat is too far forward. Before I add a new cleat, am I thinking properly?
Thanks all.

Since my boat had curved sides (like a sailboat) it wasn’t slab sided I usually tied her pulled in at the stern to make it easier to board the boat aft. When I had volunteer help on the float they always pulled the bow line in fairly tight. When they left I’d re-tie w the stern line tighter and then the bow much less tight.

But to complete the tie I had two spring lines (5/8ths golden three strand) w a bowline on the end that made fast on a Sampson Post amidships. Pulling on the fwd spring would pull the stern in even a bit more. The cap rail aft would then be close to the bull rail (vertically) and afford easy access to the aft cockpit.
I usually pulled both springs tight allowing whatever rolling motion that was available from the stern line. The only downside was that a heavy load was sometimes present on the stern line. But w a rounded stern I could install a good cleat on C/L allowing more easy roll motion. All my tie lines were 5/8ths Nylon (except the springs). The boat was a 30’ Willard of 16000lbs disp. Never a problem.
And I used bowlines forming loops (about a foot long) so in the unusual event where I used the port side all the mooring lines could be plucked up and transferred to the other side of the boat in short order.

 

[Delta Riverat]

My training was to prepare for a visit to the fuel dock or a guest dock, side tie. So, captain ran us through the drill a couple times.

1) Fenders deployed (of course)
2) Captain backs up boat following instructions from mate holding the loop end of the line.
3) Mate loops the dock cleat and secures the line to the stern boat cleat, announces "line secure".
4) Captain bumps boat forward until line tightens and then clutches the dock side engine forward.
5) This pins the boat to the dock and ladders can be deployed so easy to have safe exit to dock where bow line can be secured.
6) Engines off, get fuel, get lunch, hit the store.

The same drill works in reverse too. If stern line secured, clutch forward pins the boat to the dock and you don't have to worry about falling off the ladder.

 

[mike66]

My plan #1 was always to use the midship cleat when docking in a side to situation.

Never really had a problem with the stern kicking out.

Maybe my cleat was far enough aft

Glad to see you dropping in! My cleat is just forward of the portside door. Probably the same as yours. I wish it was a bit aft so it's clear of the boarding stairs. Anyway we'll try again and as everyone suggested a stern line will help.

 

[rslifkin]

Since my boat had curved sides (like a sailboat) it wasn’t slab sided I usually tied her pulled in at the stern to make it easier to board the boat aft. When I had volunteer help on the float they always pulled the bow line in fairly tight. When they left I’d re-tie w the stern line tighter and then the bow much less tight.

For exactly that reason I don't allow dockhands to touch a bow line unless they're still assisting after all other lines have already been tied. Inevitably they pull the bow in way too tight and make it impossible to get the rest of the boat to sit well against the dock.

 

[psneeld]

Single screw, no thrusters, not a double ender or sailboat hull shape.

Simple maneuver is to get reasonably close to the dock (not as close as necessary usually needed to get a midship spring on a cleat with no dock help)...... kick the stern towards the dock near a cleat/piling and put in neutral, walk back, drop the stern line with about 5 feet of slack (shorter if docking in a really tight place) on the cleat or piling, walk back to the helm making sure the wheel is nearly straight unless a little wheel towards dock is better. and bump into gear. Throttle as necessary.

I towed hundreds of boats to a dock by myself, no dock hands or people on the towed vessel with a single screw, tiny rudder, thrusterless tow vessel. This method works like a charm in all but the most severe conditions. Only then, an after bow would work better if the wind or current was ferocious and keeping the boat off the dock (drifting away quickly in seconds) and T-boning the dock was the only way to get there....then using that bow after spring to swing her in.

 

[mike66]

Thanks! Will try the stern tie up also. I have to practice going up against a windward dock and getting the stern close enough for the 1st mate to take the stern line off a holder on the piling and secure it. Hard for me on the fb of a trawler to come down and help.

 

[Delta Riverat]

My mid cleat is forward of midship also. If I did the mid cleat thing I would put engine in reverse. Haven't tried yet, but should work.

 

[mike66]

Thanks! We'll try that too. The setup is a finger pier with a piling at the end about even with the stern. Plan is for my wife to take a line off a hanger and place it on an appropriate cleat on the boat. She can't get off if we're moving. We have about 3 feet to spare in front of the bow

 

[psneeld]

Thanks! Will try the stern tie up also. I have to practice going up against a windward dock and getting the stern close enough for the 1st mate to take the stern line off a holder on the piling and secure it. Hard for me on the fb of a trawler to come down and help.

I pretty much single handled my 40 Albin from the lower helm 99% of the 10 trips (3700hrs/20,000 miles back and forth from Jersey to Florida and points in between) Easy in or out of port side door and helm door when convenient to handle lines or check clearances.

To just get to the dock, learn to use a line with an eye over your stern cleat and toss a big bight of line over the cleat or piling, then if someone else is line handling, have them snub it....if you the helmsman is doing it, secure the rest of the bight to the aft cleat where the eye went over it.

This should only take seconds once practiced, then just power ahead.

 

[jleonard]

Glad to see you dropping in! My cleat is just forward of the portside door. Probably the same as yours. I wish it was a bit aft so it's clear of the boarding stairs. Anyway we'll try again and as everyone suggested a stern line will help.

I normally tied starboard side to the dock. And would run the spring line through the hawse hole which was aft of the cleat. Maybe that was the difference being through the hole.

 

[bowball]

I suspect he probably doesn't mean to back in completely perpendicular to a face dock or finger pier... probably means just get the stern closer enough to get a line on a dock cleat.

Once the line is on, slight forward power (maybe a little bump at a time) will usually bring that side of the boat against the dock or finger...

And that single "stern" line is acting like an aft spring.

-Chris

That makes sense. Like a fuel dock or a T dock. Backing in perpendicular and then springing forward makes sense of really tight.

I’m not as worried about this I was visualizing into a finger slip wi5 another boat 3’ away max so wouldn’t work there.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm assuming double boat finger? Two boats side by side with a finger on the other side? It will work there as good as anywhere. You've got fenders out. You have to back in anyway eh? So, you back into the slip as usual, loop the stern to the dock, apply forward idle, pins the boat to the dock and you get off and secure the rest.

 

[rgano]

My boat has a tunnel over the single prop and thus refuses to "prop walk." So, approaching bow first to a side tie and getting a FORWARD spring over from the midship cleat seems to work at times. However, backing in at an angle, getting a stern line over and using the bow thruster to push the bow in works a treat.

 

[markpierce]

Have two mid-ship cleats on both port and starboard, several feet apart. Haven't favored one over the other.

 

[psneeld]

That makes sense. Like a fuel dock or a T dock. Backing in perpendicular and then springing forward makes sense of really tight.

I’m not as worried about this I was visualizing into a finger slip wi5 another boat 3’ away max so wouldn’t work there.

Even T heads/fuel docks you don't need to back in perpendicular, you pull in parallel but just kick the stern in quickly which many of the Taiwan boats with singles, no thruster ad big rudder can do better than try and wiggle sideways when being pushed off by wind/current.

 

[psneeld]

I'm assuming double boat finger? Two boats side by side with a finger on the other side? It will work there as good as anywhere. You've got fenders out. You have to back in anyway eh? So, you back into the slip as usual, loop the stern to the dock, apply forward idle, pins the boat to the dock and you get off and secure the rest.

Single screw, no thruster vessel.... pretty much NEVER backed into a slip...bow in much easier in AND out in varied conditions.

Plus with my boat ....and having a dingy and swim platform....going bow in with a little dock overhang got the forward door/rail opening next to the many shorter fingers I encountered making getting on/off mor convenient.

Boats with cockpits and no worry about using the dink, I can see backing in as a preferred method.

 

[ranger58sb]

Single screw, no thruster vessel.... pretty much NEVER backed into a slip...bow in much easier in AND out in varied conditions.

Plus with my boat ....and having a dingy and swim platform....going bow in with a little dock overhang got the forward door/rail opening next to the many shorter fingers I encountered making getting on/off mor convenient.

Boats with cockpits and no worry about using the dink, I can see backing in as a preferred method.

Edit: when we had a single-screw boat...

Our stern would walk toward port during short shots of reverse, our home slip finger pier was short, and we had no way to disembark up near our helm (with no side door) or anywhere very much forward of our cockpit...

But our home slip was to port as we came in our fairway, so backing in there was relatively easy.

If we came to a similar slip on our starboard, we sometimes had to almost do a 270° to enter stern-to...

-Chris