Do I sell or do I buy and why ? After the stock market crash

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Nocanvas

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It went like this. We found the boat we were interested in it was Friday April 4th. The drive was just about 8hrs. (We are retired) Then this happens
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It’s tough to convince myself to shell out $500K on a boat the same day the bottom drops out of the market.

Glad We sold our boat last year.

I see a day in the market like this and begin to think maybe I should be more concerned about being able to afford to eat than buying a boat.

Going to be interesting to see what boat prices do, what say you?
 
My guess is that the seller is in the same situation (no buyers). Put a full price offer (or what you would have offered in January) in with a 90 day closing. If the market and economy haven't rebounded by then, focus on buying groceries instead.

Ted
 
If you're worried about groceries, you shouldn't be looking at boats.

On another thread, @Jklotz quoted a friend who said "Buy the dip." If you're a cash buyer with some fortitude, buying the dip has a strong possibility of making you a chunk of change. The NASDAQ is down 20% from January highs; DOW and S&P are not far behind. It's rare you get a chance to buy at such a discount though there's no guarantee it won't go lower. If you have that type of cash, something to consider.

Peter
 
Peter, totally agree . . . . .but as you said,."there's no guarantee it won't go lower". Personally, I think this minor, 2,000+ point drop in the Dow is just the beginning . . . . I'm just not willing to buy yet . . .

We spoke to our financial manager yesterday. She said "The market is down, NOW is the time to BUY!"
I asked her how much she had personally bought today . . . . and was met with silence . . . . Kind of says something, doesn't it?
 
If you're worried about groceries, you shouldn't be looking at boats.

On another thread, @Jklotz quoted a friend who said "Buy the dip." If you're a cash buyer with some fortitude, buying the dip has a strong possibility of making you a chunk of change. The NASDAQ is down 20% from January highs; DOW and S&P are not far behind. It's rare you get a chance to buy at such a discount though there's no guarantee it won't go lower. If you have that type of cash, something to consider.

Peter
Definitely watching it for the opportunity I’m thinking it’s got room to drop imho
 
Peter, totally agree . . . . .but as you said,."there's no guarantee it won't go lower". Personally, I think this minor, 2,000+ point drop in the Dow is just the beginning . . . . I'm just not willing to buy yet . . .

We spoke to our financial manager yesterday. She said "The market is down, NOW is the time to BUY!"
I asked her how much she had personally bought today . . . . and was met with silence . . . . Kind of says something, doesn't it?
The markets HATE uncertainty. We won't know how all this shakes out for a while. I'm certainly not going to liquidate my IRA just because we are seeing a correction though. IMHO, if you're in it for the long haul, you'll be just fine. If you're a day trader, well, probably best just to go to Vegas. At least that way, you'll get a few free drinks as you watch your nest egg go down the drain.
 
Peter, totally agree . . . . .but as you said,."there's no guarantee it won't go lower". Personally, I think this minor, 2,000+ point drop in the Dow is just the beginning . . . . I'm just not willing to buy yet . . .

We spoke to our financial manager yesterday. She said "The market is down, NOW is the time to BUY!"
I asked her how much she had personally bought today . . . . and was met with silence . . . . Kind of says something, doesn't it?
I'm a down market buyer and am still waiting. 2009 was a great time to buy. This is also. The only caution here is that if Canada, the EU and maybe Mexico strike a trade deal with the USA over a weekend, you could miss the bottom with a 50% rebound in the first minute of trading. This is quite different from the fall in 2008 and slow rebound starting in 2009.

Ted
 
I'm a down market buyer and am still waiting. 2009 was a great time to buy. This is also. The only caution here is that if Canada, the EU and maybe Mexico strike a trade deal with the USA over a weekend, you could miss the bottom with a 50% rebound in the first minute of trading. This is quite different from the fall in 2008 and slow rebound starting in 2009.

Ted

I agree. Like @Jklotz I won't be selling anything based on this weeks events, though I have updated my overall strategy but that's normal. Given the enormity of the drop there is a lot of pressure to find bright spots to add to Vietnam discussions. I would not be surprised one bit to see a wild upside swing on Monday due to weekend news.

That said, guessing the OP has some cash laying around. I'm a cautious buyer - 20% losses are really historic and likely a bit of an over-reaction. It's a gamble.

Peter
 
It's not surprising that the headlines and recency bias has most people concerned about the markets.

If you compare todays market level to 4 April 2023, 2 years ago, the DJIA is up 15%, the S&P 500 up 24% and Nasdaq up 28%.

Historically, these markets have returned about 10% annually. In that light, today's market levels seem just about right as there will be down years.

Perhaps there was more than a bit of "Irrational Exuberance" in the market prior to this current selloff.
 
Good advice upthread. I am in agreement that it is risky to sell at the "latest" bottom. . . . That's why we moved pretty much everything we had out of stocks about two weeks. The handwriting was on the wall . . .
Some of our mutual funds invest in stocks, but we moved things around at the same time to get rid of the ones that were heavily leveraged in stocks . . . Waiting to buy. May take 3 or 4 years for the bottom to be reached though.
 
I wish I didn't own what I own in my investment portfolio but no way would I sell (except to buy something else). Selling would be locking-in losses. While I'm super-grumpy about this tariff mess, as an investor, I take it in stride. There are down-years and there are up-years. Just didn't think the self-proclaimed wizard of finance and business would be at the steering wheel of what may be one of the worst down-years in a decade.

THat said, strong case to be a cautious buyer. Not sure what - probably not US-based equities.

Peter
 
We saw the writing on the wall as well and moved a large percentage to cash. It's anyone's guess when the slide will stop since there are so many countries involved and there seems little logic behind the strategy. I've seen others suggesting to get back if it gets down to October 2022 levels, I think that's probably sound advice. I expect the market to continue to slide next week unless someone convinces the admin to reverse course, and I think that's unlikely since they've already invested so much in taking us down this road and it would be difficult to back out now without claiming a significant win. A "win" is unlikely to happen this quickly so the down market will continue. Of course, what do I know, I have a poor record of timing the market.
 
Its hard to condense a gazillion data points into a non-financial site post.

Its over when the cause of it is over.

What if the cause isn't tariffs, and tariffs were merely the spark lighting an abundance of dry tinder? The spark could have been anything or nothing.

Valuations were sky high on rear view mirror earnings. Then you had the Fed sucking out liquidity via unwinding of the old absurdly high QE. When you have Walmart and Costco PE's at hot tech stock valuations and ABOVE, the best you can say is all value was priced in, and the worst you can say is nutty values hit the wall.

Valuations on one year forward projections are now back in line and arguably cheap enough. Provided CFO's and analysts don't start cutting projections. Earnings season begins now and we shall see.

Stocks go up when there are more buyers than sellers, and vice versa. Simple point. In March hedge funds sold like mad. Retail like we folks were buying the dip like mad. Until yesterday when a lot of retail threw in the towel. Pro funds of all types vastly outweigh retail. Like 70% to 30% or thereabouts.

We are in a news and emotion driven phase. Not a spreadsheet valuation phase. Arrival of news is random and unpredictable. Good or bad it can have an out-sized market impact well beyond its econ importance. But it would be useful to do an exercise for yourself as to what might cause a change in the psy of it at the professional / hedge fund levels to cause covering shorts and buy in some long positions.

Friday trading volumes were either an all time high or nearly so, depending on who you listen to. The thing about records is they are meant to be broken. In the Covid crash of 2020 records were broken only to see them broken again a week later. Very short term buy vs sell activity oscillators point to Friday being a capitulation event setting up for a bounce. That can be dead wrong. No one can predict what news events will occur before futures open again on Sunday night. Absent up indications, expect margin call forced selling out of the gate and no shot at stability until mid-morning. Bitcoin trades 24x7 nonstop, and sometimes a useful sentiment indicator. Its been remarkably stable, down ever so slightly since Friday stock market close, not signaling either more panic nor bull excitement. No real news this morning, so no shock there.

The trend is down. Respect that fact.

Back to the OP's issues. No one can opine on your overall financial situation. If you can swing it without selling stocks cheap and won't miss the cash on hand its one thing. If you are counting on back to back years of 20% stock returns its quite a different thing. Stocks are back to levels of a year ago. If you could swing it then, you can swing it now.

But if you can't sleep if you buy it, maybe you shouldn't.

Absolutely no one can predict the future. It is arrogance to think you can. We can say with certainty where the market closed as of Friday. One can use that to make personal decisions based on what you know with certainty to be true. My advice is to turn off the TV and avoid market forecasters. Buy when metrics tell you its cheap enough, not just because price is X% less than the high. Walmart and Costco are not cheap, still. Other stuff may well be. Choose wisely. Cheap doesn't mean it can't get cheaper, because sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. If you don't love what you own enough to have confidence in it, you own the wrong stuff, or don't understand it enough to actually have that confidence.
 
I knew a retired couple who panicked and sold their retirement stock savings when the market crashed around 1990. I could not believe they sold after the many years they had been in the market and saw the up and downs. They took a paper loss and made it real. :( There was no recovery for them at their age.

One of my tasks today was to see how my retirement fund was impacted by this weeks downturn. It is not good of course and is down by almost 13% compared to the first of March. But here is the thing, the long term projections still have my children getting a large inheritance, though not as big as before.

I read some advice on when to retire which was counter intuitive. The advice was if you can retire in a down turn, that is better than retiring when the economy is on an up swing. Which does make sense if one thinks about it.
 
Its hard to condense a gazillion data points into a non-financial site post.

Its over when the cause of it is over.

What if the cause isn't tariffs, and tariffs were merely the spark lighting an abundance of dry tinder? The spark could have been anything or nothing.

Valuations were sky high on rear view mirror earnings. Then you had the Fed sucking out liquidity via unwinding of the old absurdly high QE. When you have Walmart and Costco PE's at hot tech stock valuations and ABOVE, the best you can say is all value was priced in, and the worst you can say is nutty values hit the wall.

Valuations on one year forward projections are now back in line and arguably cheap enough. Provided CFO's and analysts don't start cutting projections. Earnings season begins now and we shall see.

Stocks go up when there are more buyers than sellers, and vice versa. Simple point. In March hedge funds sold like mad. Retail like we folks were buying the dip like mad. Until yesterday when a lot of retail threw in the towel. Pro funds of all types vastly outweigh retail. Like 70% to 30% or thereabouts.

We are in a news and emotion driven phase. Not a spreadsheet valuation phase. Arrival of news is random and unpredictable. Good or bad it can have an out-sized market impact well beyond its econ importance. But it would be useful to do an exercise for yourself as to what might cause a change in the psy of it at the professional / hedge fund levels to cause covering shorts and buy in some long positions.

Friday trading volumes were either an all time high or nearly so, depending on who you listen to. The thing about records is they are meant to be broken. In the Covid crash of 2020 records were broken only to see them broken again a week later. Very short term buy vs sell activity oscillators point to Friday being a capitulation event setting up for a bounce. That can be dead wrong. No one can predict what news events will occur before futures open again on Sunday night. Absent up indications, expect margin call forced selling out of the gate and no shot at stability until mid-morning. Bitcoin trades 24x7 nonstop, and sometimes a useful sentiment indicator. Its been remarkably stable, down ever so slightly since Friday stock market close, not signaling either more panic nor bull excitement. No real news this morning, so no shock there.

The trend is down. Respect that fact.

Back to the OP's issues. No one can opine on your overall financial situation. If you can swing it without selling stocks cheap and won't miss the cash on hand its one thing. If you are counting on back to back years of 20% stock returns its quite a different thing. Stocks are back to levels of a year ago. If you could swing it then, you can swing it now.

But if you can't sleep if you buy it, maybe you shouldn't.

Absolutely no one can predict the future. It is arrogance to think you can. We can say with certainty where the market closed as of Friday. One can use that to make personal decisions based on what you know with certainty to be true. My advice is to turn off the TV and avoid market forecasters. Buy when metrics tell you its cheap enough, not just because price is X% less than the high. Walmart and Costco are not cheap, still. Other stuff may well be. Choose wisely. Cheap doesn't mean it can't get cheaper, because sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. If you don't love what you own enough to have confidence in it, you own the wrong stuff, or don't understand it enough to actually have that confidence.

I found this post to be simply excellent. Thanks for taking the time to share.

Peter
 
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I read an article that if you miss 10 particular days in a year in the stock market that you can miss most of the gains you might have had if you remained invested.
I have a lot of Red in my portfolio but as others have said, it is a paper loss until I actually sell it.
I wish I had more cash I was willing to deploy in the near future.
 
I did not liquidate before the current drop, and I'm not buying either.

But... If I needed to liquidate a large amount to for example buy a boat I'd be crying right now.

But... I'd do it anyway because the calendar will continue. You will get older, and if you want to go cruising you need to do it now rather than risk not going while you try time a market high to buy your boat.
 
The one thing I know to be 100% true about markets is that nothing else is 100% true.

"Usually", "probably", and "more often than not" are as good as it gets. Learn to live with that.

The same holds true for buy and hold and never sell. Warren Buffet is the king of that, and he just sold a bunch at the top.

"Usually" hold through the dips is the smart play. However, there are exceptions. Selling out way after the 2009 crash began but way before the bottom would have been the smart play. You need a trigger to know how deep you are willing to ride it, that is based not on your fears and pain, but on how low "normal" dips run. IE when does a dip stop being normal and begin being something more?

Then, if you do sell, you need a second trigger to know when to buy back. Bear markets are filled with fake rallies that suck people back in only to tank to yet lower levels. Sell, buy, sell, buy a few times and lose ground each time and you get worn out and don't buy the one you should. Look at a 2022 chart.

That's a pair of triggers each one of which is challenging. Its a lot easier to just hold, except when you shouldn't.

Then you get to individual stock names vs index investing. Sometimes market royalty doesn't come back. Worldcom. Enron. I think it took Cisco 20 years or something to regain its 2000 high and that was arguably the most respected name of its day.

Really crazy stuff happens with some names. NewsMax went public last week. When I looked them up they lost $50mm on sales of $150mm or thereabouts. But of course as they all do they then create some funny money accounting to wave away some of the losses. "Proforma" is latin for bullshit. They came out at $14 per share, and in two days peaked at $265. Closed Friday at $45. Nutty.

There is always nutty cheap that stays nutty cheap because nobody loves them but you, and nutty expensive because everybody loves them except you. The sum total of all of that composes the indexes so before getting high and mighty about index investing just know you are buying the sum of nutty good and nutty bad.

Go figure.

There is no sin in selling. Just do it for reasons you know and trust, and have a plan for what's next.

You can't judge someone else's decision to sell. Maybe they just can't afford to ride further. Maybe what they sold was a Cisco where taking what you can take and redeploy elsewhere is the winning move. At the end of the day we don't know more than the next guy about what the future holds so who are we to judge?
 
I took delivery of a new trawler (Helmsman 38) in 2022.

Per other threads its value is now either stable or up

I never in my wildest imagination thought I was buying a hedge asset against a bear market.

Yet here we are.

Now explain to me why any forecast of future events and valuations is meaningful?
 
…But... I'd do it anyway because the calendar will continue. You will get older, and if you want to go cruising you need to do it now rather than risk not going while you try time a market high to buy your boat.
I talked to a respected broker after the last market down turn. He said retires choked but didn’t put off purchases. I get it. You can’t put time back on the clock. Buyers in there 30-50s, that was/will be/is a different story.
 
If you live long enough you will go thru a number of up and down markets. At least wait until the market settles.

We are retired, comfortable life style, and can basically live on SS. So the stock market dose not effect us to much. We rode it up so we will ride it down and holding.
 
I took delivery of a new trawler (Helmsman 38) in 2022.

Per other threads its value is now either stable or up

I never in my wildest imagination thought I was buying a hedge asset against a bear market.

Yet here we are.

Now explain to me why any forecast of future events and valuations is meaningful?
And to take delivery in 2022, your commitment was in 2021. Just in that short amount of time I think of everything we’ve seen and all we could have never imagined. None of us know anything, particularly when we take our last breath. I’d by the boat.
 
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To the OP; if you have the cash set aside, and also have a cash cushion/income set aside, then go for it if its the right boat/deal. Maybe be aggressive in your offer. But if you have to sell assets to do the deal, I'd wait...
 
A NEW trawler? Or a new to you trawler. If it’s a NEW trawler then I think your portfolio is large enough that you have withstood downturns in the past and and will continue to be fine moving forward over time. Personally, I look at this as a correction that has been pontificated about for years. I think FWT nailed it, this was the spark to ignite the kindling. The amount it burns remains to be seen, and the mystery. Knee jerk is how you lose.
 
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To the OP; if you have the cash set aside, and also have a cash cushion/income set aside, then go for it if its the right boat/deal. Maybe be aggressive in your offer. But if you have to sell assets to do the deal, I'd wait...
So much good perspective in this whole thread. This strikes me as sound advice for the OP. I'm not active in the market, though I keep my eye on boats to keep my dreams alive.

In the last couple of days, I lost enough in retirement accounts to buy many of the new-to-me trawlers that I've been watching. However, I'm 5 or 6 years (?) away from a boat purchase and ever further away from retirement. I have a "boat fund" (~35K) that's been accumulating in a cash account with a modest interest rate. On Friday afternoon, I started moving that cash into index funds. I plan to dollar-cost-average into the market every Monday until (a) my boat fund cash account is zero-ed out or (b) the market recovers to a set-point I have pre-determined.

There's a risk here, of course. I could DCA into a market that's about to drop into a long-term recession. On the other hand, the market could rally in a day/week, and I'll wish I had plowed everything in at once. I accept both those risks and think the strategy I have in mind is sensible. That's about all a person can hope for in the face of massive uncertainty.
 
I acknowledge that at most times cash is a pretty poor idea and this was especially true in the low-interest rate environment that we had become accustomed to during the past decade.
That may be a little less true today. Cashed placed in the lower end of investment grade credits for short to intermediate term has been worth 500+ bps. Given the recent high multiples and the current volatility, I find that pretty attractive. Not glamorous for sure, but it seems like most of us in the boating cohort are not of the age group for which taking on risk is less risky.....
I could certainly survive quite nicely on plus 5%, but minus 40%, which has happened a time or two in my lifetime, might be somewhat impactful.
I have always been more Rod Carew than Harmon Killibrew though, and worth considering that they are both in the Hall of Fame......
 
I saw a report that the stock market lost 6 Trillion dollars in a couple of days. That would pay for a couple of nice boats…
 
It went like this. We found the boat we were interested in it was Friday April 4th. The drive was just about 8hrs. (We are retired) Then this happens View attachment 163702It’s tough to convince myself to shell out $500K on a boat the same day the bottom drops out of the market.

Glad We sold our boat last year.

I see a day in the market like this and begin to think maybe I should be more concerned about being able to afford to eat than buying a boat.

Going to be interesting to see what boat prices do, what say you?
Th market had ( if no worse) equivalent fall during the covid and in the same time the buyer for boat was legion and don't hesitate to buy at a surevaluate price during covid...
 
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