DIY trawler project - calculating my risks

[Rodri]

I´m fairly new here. Long thinking about buying a trawler. I´m located in Europe. And this makes things far more complicated for me. Spent the last 8 months looking into US and Canadian offers. All would have made sense. Transportation included. But European regulations for older boats then 2010 are impossible to pass. Except doing an complete engine refit. Which I believe makes the deal not interesting anymore.
Here is my challenge: Surprisingly, I found a Taiwan trawler (that type almost not available in Europe) next to my German location. 20 miles far away Lucky punch. Cheap boat. I know all the sayings (boat is a hole in the water.., nothing more expensive then a cheap boat, etc), but due to my limited options Im seriously considering buying a project boat.

1974, 1100 engine hours, single engine 120hp Ford Lehman. GF hull. 34t. From the distance and the correspondence I would say, technically in good shape. The actual owner still doing maintenance for the hand-over. The catch: Water intrusion on the flybridge and the rear space. Saw the flybridge floor (image attached). No more details for now about the rear room. He said, roof and walls needs a doesn´t look good and needs a refit.

My questions: That type of water intrusion possibly not only damaging the upper structure but also the hull itself? Is there any passage from the upper structure downwards where the water could leak into the core? Balsa core - at least expected. The second question: Boat in the North Sea for the last 3 years. Can´t be slipped for inspection. A thorough inspection from inside (bilge etc.) at least limiting my risk for a severe structural damage outside? I have no problem to jump into the water. But the water in the Marina possibly to cloudy for visual inspection.

Your expertise very much appreciated.

Rodri

 

[Comodave]

Difficult situation. The hull probably is not cored. That old a Taiwan boat likely has a solid hull. The decks are probably cored and may need recoring. It can be a huge job but not too difficult technically. If you are good at DIY then it is certainly doable. But it is hard physical work. Not familiar with costs in Europe but here it would not be hugely expensive, thousands of dollars yes but not tens of thousands. The Lehman engines are great but I have no idea on support there, here it is pretty good.

The flybridge deck looks like a good candidate for new core. Cut the top layer of fiberglass and remove it, set it aside, dig out old rotten core, install new core with epoxy and thickened epoxy, lay fiberglass top deck back on with thickened epoxy and glass the seams. Do some fairing then paint with Kiwigrip. It hides minor imperfections well and is great nonskid.

Sounds easy but it is all work on your knees, not mine.

Good luck.

 

[Rodri]

Difficult situation. The hull probably is not cored. That old a Taiwan boat likely has a solid hull. The decks are probably cored and may need recoring. It can be a huge job but not too difficult technically. If you are good at DIY then it is certainly doable. But it is hard physical work. Not familiar with costs in Europe but here it would not be hugely expensive, thousands of dollars yes but not tens of thousands. The Lehman engines are great but I have no idea on support there, here it is pretty good.

The flybridge deck looks like a good candidate for new core. Cut the top layer of fiberglass and remove it, set it aside, dig out old rotten core, install new core with epoxy and thickened epoxy, lay fiberglass top deck back on with thickened epoxy and glass the seams. Do some fairing then paint with Kiwigrip. It hides minor imperfections well and is great nonskid.

Sounds easy but it is all work on your knees, not mine.

Good luck.

Great advice, comodave. Lehman components widely available. Us importing far from a problem if needed. Im all diy. And not shy doing all necessary. thanks.

 

[psneeld]

May have little damage to the flybridge itself, and none to anything but the headliner below. Hard to imagine hull damage, but parts of the structure under the flybridge may have damage depending where water sat for years.

My 1988 Albin had severe leaks into the salon through the overhead lights, coming down from the million screw holes from the teak decking on the flybridge.

I pulled up the teak and found a large soft spot (the low spot where water collected) where the teak blocks used as the flybridge core were saturated and pulled away from the upper and lower fiberglass skins.

I carefully cut out a 5X2 foot section of upper skin, pulled out the teak blocks, replaced with plywood and structural foam, reglassed the cutout back in and then covered the entire flybridge with 3 layers of 6oz cloth and epoxy.

I also got rid of the very uncomfortable seating while I was at it and just used nice deck chairs for seating.

 

[ranger58sb]

I´m fairly new here. Long thinking about buying a trawler.

Why? What's your goal? Boating? Liveaboard? Learning marine trades? Et cetera...

My guess is that one won't let you go boating for a few years...

Can´t be slipped for inspection. A thorough inspection from inside (bilge etc.) at least limiting my risk for a severe structural damage outside?

Why can't it? The typical approach would include a marine survey, a mechanical survey (engine, and maybe genset if equipped), and a sea trial. The marine survey would address structural issues and especially the hull. Why can't you do that?

-Chris

 

[O C Diver]

As others have mentioned, your hull will likely be solid fiberglass.

My concern would be the engine. It's 50+ years old. That would equate to 22 hours per year, or more likely years or possibly a decade without being run. If it were me, I'd do a long seatrial and do oil analysis on the engine and transmission. If you can't rebuild the engine yourself, I would get an estimate to remove, rebuild, and reinstall the engine. As there's no warranty, the engine and transmission could be your biggest liability in a DIY project.

Ted

 

[CharlieO.]

Sounds similar to our boat we purchased.
We removed the fuel tanks, replaced with smaller plastic ones, fixed the broken bilge floor, replaced the bilge pump and added a second bilge pump put in a new impeller and then took it 200+ miles to a slip we found.
This is our fourth year of ownership. Always something to fix, repair or upgrade but we are out there boating and having a great time.

 

[psneeld]

Even moderate hydrolysis damage to the hull cannot be determined from the inside of the hull in many cases, lack of access and false bilge surfaces will prevent certainly visual inspection (doesn't detect hydrolysis anyway) and most likely any other form of inspection also.

Even most external inspections can miss hydrolysis issues, but an underwater inspection most likely might even mis diagnose even simple osmotic blistering/paint issues.

The good news if your boat was mostly in cool/cold water for its life, those problems will be less common.

 

[Rodri]

Why? What's your goal? Boating? Liveaboard? Learning marine trades? Et cetera...

My guess is that one won't let you go boating for a few years...




Why can't it? The typical approach would include a marine survey, a mechanical survey (engine, and maybe genset if equipped), and a sea trial. The marine survey would address structural issues and especially the hull. Why can't you do that?

-Chris

Owner saying. 15 miles away there is a slip service available. Would be part of the dealmaking to discuss this matter.
My goal: 3-5 months liveaboard in the Mediterranian see. Shipping from island to island.

 

[Rodri]

May have little damage to the flybridge itself, and none to anything but the headliner below. Hard to imagine hull damage, but parts of the structure under the flybridge may have damage depending where water sat for years.

My 1988 Albin had severe leaks into the salon through the overhead lights, coming down from the million screw holes from the teak decking on the flybridge.

I pulled up the teak and found a large soft spot (the low spot where water collected) where the teak blocks used as the flybridge core were saturated and pulled away from the upper and lower fiberglass skins.

I carefully cut out a 5X2 foot section of upper skin, pulled out the teak blocks, replaced with plywood and structural foam, reglassed the cutout back in and then covered the entire flybridge with 3 layers of 6oz cloth and epoxy.

I also got rid of the very uncomfortable seating while I was at it and just used nice deck chairs for seating.View attachment 165690View attachment 165691

Wow. Helpful. Question in my mind whats below. As you said, looks like a lot of work. But doable. Thanks for your valuable input psneeld. Helps me further.

 

[Rodri]

Even moderate hydrolysis damage to the hull cannot be determined from the inside of the hull in many cases, lack of access and false bilge surfaces will prevent certainly visual inspection (doesn't detect hydrolysis anyway) and most likely any other form of inspection also.

Even most external inspections can miss hydrolysis issues, but an underwater inspection most likely might even mis diagnose even simple osmotic blistering/paint issues.

The good news if your boat was mostly in cool/cold water for its life, those problems will be less common.

The North sea fairly cold. All year around. 18 degrees C during a short summer period max.

 

[Rodri]

Sounds similar to our boat we purchased.
We removed the fuel tanks, replaced with smaller plastic ones, fixed the broken bilge floor, replaced the bilge pump and added a second bilge pump put in a new impeller and then took it 200+ miles to a slip we found.
This is our fourth year of ownership. Always something to fix, repair or upgrade but we are out there boating and having a great time.

Thanks. Encouraging. From time to time you simply have to jump. Into unchartered territory. At least my belief.

 

[Rodri]

As others have mentioned, your hull will likely be solid fiberglass.

My concern would be the engine. It's 50+ years old. That would equate to 22 hours per year, or more likely years or possibly a decade without being run. If it were me, I'd do a long seatrial and do oil analysis on the engine and transmission. If you can't rebuild the engine yourself, I would get an estimate to remove, rebuild, and reinstall the engine. As there's no warranty, the engine and transmission could be your biggest liability in a DIY project.

Ted

Same here. The actual owner only shipping for the last three years in the port area. Due to diesel bug he bought the boat with. The last trip (where he found out about the bug: 200 miles - three years ago). Good thing: All tanks already replaced. He seems to be like a qualified technician.(to be verified) I will invite a surveyor the engine and transmission. Thanks, Ted.

 

[cfr]

a survey will be more costly then the boat itself, if you have time and skills and the boat is for free you can try, such boat is impossible to sell in germany in such shape and worth nothing. see all the steel duch trawler on the market and a lot of sailboat. if you like the med take a simple 35 ft sailboat for 40.000 and start boating....

 

[Taras]

Probably your best "insurance" is to buy a good Moisture Meter to determine the extent of the water intrusion. I purchased a surveyor quality meter (GE Surveymaster Protimeter) on ebay for $300. It was the exact unit my surveyor (whom I trust) uses. It's very easy to use and can give you a good indication of where the water has migrated to. Cheaper than finding out the boat is rotten in many, many places. I was paying thousands of dollars surveying boat after boat, just to find out the water intrusion was more that I wanted to deal with. Now what I do (before I hire a surveyor) is check over the boat first myself with my moisture meter to rule the boat out or not.
Hope that helps

 

[Nick F]

If you enjoy fixing things - go for it!

New tanks - great! Plan for replacing decks and part of flybridge. Hull will be solid fibreglass and no boat ever sank due to osmosis. Good luck!

 

[ranger58sb]

Owner saying. 15 miles away there is a slip service available. Would be part of the dealmaking to discuss this matter.
My goal: 3-5 months liveaboard in the Mediterranian see. Shipping from island to island.

Do you have boating experience?

If not, what's the comparison between moving between small apartments (where you don't have to any maintenance work) versus an old boat (that you have to rebuild every day)?

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

I'd check a couple of other things before embarking on this project. First is to figure out where you will keep the boat, and confirm you can do all this work in that location. Will it be hauled out or in a slip? Will the facility allow you to do topside work, including fiberglass and grinding? Some won't. What will the monthly storage fees be? Can you get insurance for the boat? Even if you don't want it, the marina or yard may require it. All this leads up to understanding what it will cost just to own the boat, regardless of what work you are doing. A project like this will certainly take longer than you expect - they always do. Always. And you may find there are times when you want to or need to take a break from it. But the whole time the boat is sitting, it's costing you $$.

 

[Rodri]

Do you have boating experience?

If not, what's the comparison between moving between small apartments (where you don't have to any maintenance work) versus an old boat (that you have to rebuild every day)?

-Chris

Why do you own a boat, Chris? General saying between RV fans (I´m one with a 24 years old American Class A). Sleeping in your own bed - priceless. RV´ing is - I assume - a very good prep for boating.

This trip the rear view camera left the game, I have small coolant leakage I can´t find the origin and - minor - the door locker broke. But the number of days seeing dawn and sunset, enjoying the beauty in the countryside and, if you don´t like the actual surrounding, fire up your engine and change your location easily, simply priceless. Never regretted a single day. (except the ones I got mad about a technical problem) I expect the same with boating. Punch list never empty. Not all days sunny. But a lot of fun and great people to meet. Like the ones here I get valuable comments from. And your question: Newbie. Never had one.

Life is all about challenges and new projects. Not comfort. At least from my perspective.

 

[Rodri]

If you enjoy fixing things - go for it!

New tanks - great! Plan for replacing decks and part of flybridge. Hull will be solid fibreglass and no boat ever sank due to osmosis. Good luck!

Thanks, Nick. Thats how I see it, too. And never bad about some elbow grease. You know then, its done right.

 

[Rodri]

Probably your best "insurance" is to buy a good Moisture Meter to determine the extent of the water intrusion. I purchased a surveyor quality meter (GE Surveymaster Protimeter) on ebay for $300. It was the exact unit my surveyor (whom I trust) uses. It's very easy to use and can give you a good indication of where the water has migrated to. Cheaper than finding out the boat is rotten in many, many places. I was paying thousands of dollars surveying boat after boat, just to find out the water intrusion was more that I wanted to deal with. Now what I do (before I hire a surveyor) is check over the boat first myself with my moisture meter to rule the boat out or not.
Hope that helps

Valuable tip, Taras. Very helpful. Already on my checklist to be bought before the first inspection.

 

[Rodri]

I'd check a couple of other things before embarking on this project. First is to figure out where you will keep the boat, and confirm you can do all this work in that location. Will it be hauled out or in a slip? Will the facility allow you to do topside work, including fiberglass and grinding? Some won't. What will the monthly storage fees be? Can you get insurance for the boat? Even if you don't want it, the marina or yard may require it. All this leads up to understanding what it will cost just to own the boat, regardless of what work you are doing. A project like this will certainly take longer than you expect - they always do. Always. And you may find there are times when you want to or need to take a break from it. But the whole time the boat is sitting, it's costing you $$.

So true, twistedtree. Its always taking longer due to our bias. Insurance shouldn´t be a problem. Slip possibility not far away. Need to check if they allow DIY. I have excellent opportunities doing all needed updates in Spain. The idea for now: All around inspection. All water leaks to be fixed. TLC later. And then travelling European rivers down to the Mediterranean side. Still dreaming. Boat ready for inspection soon. Sure thing I will report here if this is going to be a deal or not.

 

[ranger58sb]

Why do you own a boat, Chris? General saying between RV fans (I´m one with a 24 years old American Class A). Sleeping in your own bed - priceless. RV´ing is - I assume - a very good prep for boating.

Fair enough. And yep, we drag our "house" along 'cause we like it better too. Wasn't meaning to sound like criticism, just advocating for an "eyes wide open" approach.

Yes. And no, ref the prep thing. Some bits similar, some not so much. Still, if you can cope with the maintenance and service, that goes a long way!

-Chris

 

[Rodri]

Fair enough. And yep, we drag our "house" along 'cause we like it better too. Wasn't meaning to sound like criticism, just advocating for an "eyes wide open" approach.

Yes. And no, ref the prep thing. Some bits similar, some not so much. Still, if you can cope with the maintenance and service, that goes a long way!

-Chris

Never understood your comment the wrong way, Chris. All comments helpful, yours too. Already preparing for my check list. And invited a surveyor to join for the first examination. Dreams guiding us sometimes in the wrong direction. My challenge here: To see it - as we say in my industry - in the cold light of the day. Which is not easy. And your comment helped me to keep my eyes open.

 

[cyrion]

For a precise hull inspection, I think there's also the ultrasound solution.
This technique is generally used for metal or composite hulls, but a few years ago I saw a wooden fishing trawler (82 feet) hull being surveyed using "low-frequency" ultrasound.
I don't know what frequency range is used, but it should be possible to determine it.
As several forum members have mentioned, it all depends on what you're going to do with your boat.
If it's for staying in port or for little sailing, the risk (with a good bilge pump!!!) isn't too great.
But if you're planning long voyages, in rough seas... the stress on the hull becomes significant, and so does the risk!
Hiring a reputable (and equipped) marine surveyor is generally a more than worthwhile investment (even if you don't buy the boat).
Good luck with your project

 

[Almad]

Why do you own a boat, Chris? General saying between RV fans (I´m one with a 24 years old American Class A). Sleeping in your own bed - priceless. RV´ing is - I assume - a very good prep for boating.

This trip the rear view camera left the game, I have small coolant leakage I can´t find the origin and - minor - the door locker broke. But the number of days seeing dawn and sunset, enjoying the beauty in the countryside and, if you don´t like the actual surrounding, fire up your engine and change your location easily, simply priceless. Never regretted a single day. (except the ones I got mad about a technical problem) I expect the same with boating. Punch list never empty. Not all days sunny. But a lot of fun and great people to meet. Like the ones here I get valuable comments from. And your question: Newbie. Never had one.

Life is all about challenges and new projects. Not comfort. At least from my perspective.

Nice

 

[Almad]

So much good advice here. 8 years ago, I bought from the heart, not the head. Love a project and what better than to sail the med whilst restoring an ‘83 trawler! Well, I’m still doing it all.
Decks, tanks, furniture………. The list goes on.
And, as said, we’ve seen amazing sunrises/sets, had our own bed, (sometimes with a coat of dust). It’s been fantastic.
I would caution as the the cost of ‘help’ along the way. You will find that people aren’t invested in your boat the way you are, and whist travelling, you have often moved on to far to claim on a defect or warranty issue.
A possible solution is to do the majority of the refit (particularly elect and mech) in the one location and test well before you leave.
Anyway, having travelled from uk to now in Greece, it’s an experience we’ll never forget, although I do think my wife is over the dust.