Ditch your powder fire extinguishers

[Uisce Beo]

A friend of mine woke up at 3am to the sound of his smoke alarm. He went in to the saloon to find his e bike battery on fire. This guy is a retired Royal Navy submarine officer. So let’s say he probably doesn’t easily panic.
He grabbed his builder supplied and insurance approved fire extinguisher and discharged it onto the fire. As he says, two seconds after he discharged them he couldn’t see and couldn’t breathe. Ended up on deck in his underpants in February gasping for breath.
The good news was the fire was out. The bad news is it took him and his wife more than a week to clean up. He said they found powder everywhere including in the other end of the boat in the master clothes drawers. Powder got literally everywhere.
We got rid of ours and replaced them with Firexo. Same form size and rated for the same types of fires as powder but liquid based so clean up is much easier.
The kicker is my powder extinguishers say on them to not use in an enclosed space! Which pretty much defines every area I’d need them on the boat.
Firexo is UK based but I believe they’re widely available.

 

[Frosty]

Side question but I'm interested in whether the e-bike battery was being charged at the time.... or whether it just spontaneously caught fire even when not charging.

I don't have an e-bike, and I try very hard to avoid anything with internal lithium batteries, but it's not easy these days! I always hoped that most of the risk was while charging (hence I don't ever charge unless I'm awake and nearby, and don't even leave any of that type of thing plugged in while I'm gone).

But I've always wondered if most of the risk was while actively charging (?).

Glad to hear your buddy and his boat are both still alive and kicking after that. Whew.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Side question but I'm interested in whether the e-bike battery was being charged at the time.... or whether it just spontaneously caught fire even when not charging.

I don't have an e-bike, and I try very hard to avoid anything with internal lithium batteries, but it's not easy these days! I always hoped that most of the risk was while charging (hence I don't ever charge unless I'm awake and nearby, and don't even leave any of that type of thing plugged in while I'm gone).

But I've always wondered if most of the risk was while actively charging (?).

Glad to hear your buddy and his boat are both still alive and kicking after that. Whew.

Pretty sure it was charging. I don’t charge mine overnight. I also got a fireproof battery bag.

https://amzn.eu/d/gOymakl

 

[Bacchus]

They may be approved for use in Europe but I could not find any mention of US certifications nor mention of marine use... UL, NFPA, USCG, etc.
Just a caution for others considering a switch

 

[Uisce Beo]

Side question but I'm interested in whether the e-bike battery was being charged at the time.... or whether it just spontaneously caught fire even when not charging.

I don't have an e-bike, and I try very hard to avoid anything with internal lithium batteries, but it's not easy these days! I always hoped that most of the risk was while charging (hence I don't ever charge unless I'm awake and nearby, and don't even leave any of that type of thing plugged in while I'm gone).

But I've always wondered if most of the risk was while actively charging (?).

Glad to hear your buddy and his boat are both still alive and kicking after that. Whew.

Pretty sure it was charging. I don’t charge mine overnight. I also got a fireproof battery bag.

https://amzn.eu/d/iVufLss

 

[Uisce Beo]

They may be approved for use in Europe but I could not find any mention of US certifications nor mention of marine use... UL, NFPA, USCG, etc.
Just a caution for others considering a switch

I think you’re right. They do say they’re working on global access-whatever that means.

Firexo extinguishers are certified to meet the European standards outlined in EN3, which covers the design, construction, and performance of portable fire extinguishers. The CE marking indicates that the product meets the requirements of relevant EU directives.

 

[psneeld]

Standard USCG approved boat fire extinguishers won't work on a lithium battery fire. They will put out the surrounding items.

Anyone that has used/practiced with a standard powder household/boat fire extinguisher knows that you will be in a dust storm if used in a confined space.

Giving advice to US boaters to ditch USCG approved fire extinguishers for a UK manufactured one should come with a caveat. One should add the advice to make sure your new type of extinguisher is USCG approved, or you better also keep your other ones. I say this as while an international forum, the vast majority are in the US...but we too have to be careful to point out US boating specific regs/laws/customs.

There has been a ton of net info on e-bike battery fires and the proper methods to charge and store them. If you have one and haven't read up on it this thread kinda says why one should.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Certainly might make sense to keep your USCG approved extinguisher if you are US based. But I stand by my statement that powder extinguishers specifically say not to use in an enclosed space.

In the meantime, as this is an international forum, some might find this info helpful.

Besides the mess in living areas dry powder can make its way into the engine room where it can do catastrophic damage to a diesel engine.

When drawn into a running engine the powder can build up into an incompressible bulk in the upper cylinder when mixed with fuel and cause a hydraulic lock. This can perforate a piston crown or bend a conrod.

These Firexo extinguishers are, I feel, a real game changer in hand held extinguishers.

https://firexo.com/firexo-success-fighting-lithium-ion-fires/

 

[rslifkin]

ABC dry chem extinguishers are common for a few reasons. They're USCG approved and they work on a wide range of fires. For many fires they're not the ideal choice, but at the same time, it's not always going to be practical to a variety of extinguishers on hand and reliably grab the ideal type, especially if it's not the closest one. The nastiness of the ABC dry chem also is an advantage in some fires, as IIRC it will basically melt onto a burning surface to help prevent re-ignition by continuing to block oxygen as the fire cools.

In my mind there are a couple of places on board where deviating from the standard ABC dry chem makes sense. A clean agent (like halotron) extinguisher next to the electrical panel might be a good idea, as it won't add to the damage if anything gets crispy there. But it also won't prevent re-ignition once the agent disperses, so you'd have to cut the power first, then use it to knock out the burning insulation, etc. In the engine room if you wanted a hand-portable extinguisher I'd consider either foam or Purple K (dry powder, BC rated, but much less corrosive and damaging than the ABC powder). And maybe a Class K extinguisher in the galley for cooking related fires (and they're also class A rated for burning solids). USCG approved brackets are available for plenty of extinguishers that aren't the standard USCG required BC or ABC types, so you'd still be able to mount them safely.

The Firexo extinguishers look interesting, but I'd want to see them approved to US standards and a bit more information about them before I'd consider spending money on them.

 

[Mambo42]

We have quite a bit of Lithium batteries onboard (phones, cameras, bikes, scooter, drone, radios, outboard), which I really don't like too much, but there is no escaping it. We do have one rule though and that is that someone has to be present when they are on the charger. Even if we need to leave for 5 min we stop charging. The risk is just too high.
As for the fire extinguishers, I agree that powder makes an enormous mess. For anything related to lithium batteries I can recommend this company / product. Our Products, Systems & Solutions | FirePro™
They also install fire extinguishing systems in cargo holds of aircraft to deal with lithium fires and from experience I know the requirements are very high.

 

[Frosty]

Pretty sure it was charging. I don’t charge mine overnight. I also got a fireproof battery bag.

https://amzn.eu/d/gOymakl

I'll take a look at the bags, thanks for the idea. Because though I try to limit the number of rechargeables aboard, it's tough to eliminate them all. Yeah, I wouldn't charge overnight or when away, either.

 

[JackConnick]

Small lithium batteries can always be tossed overboard.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah. But you need to grab the flaming battery first...

 

[DDW]

That's what BBQ tongs are for.

 

[rslifkin]

And some thought as to where devices are being charged so that they can be submerged in a sink or tossed overboard if necessary. Submerging a runaway lithium ion in enough water will help, as it'll cool the battery and can stop the runaway.

I worry far more about stuff like power tools than I do about cell phones and laptops. Cell phones and laptops are very high volume devices, so they will always have the closest eyes on them for battery reliability, etc. and I expect them to have a lower failure risk as a result.

Power tools, on the other hand, get banged around, often have bigger batteries or ones that are charged and discharged at higher rates, etc. So I consider them a much bigger risk while charging.

 

[Jerbro]

Certainly might make sense to keep your USCG approved extinguisher if you are US based. But I stand by my statement that powder extinguishers specifically say not to use in an enclosed space.

In the meantime, as this is an international forum, some might find this info helpful.

Besides the mess in living areas dry powder can make its way into the engine room where it can do catastrophic damage to a diesel engine.

When drawn into a running engine the powder can build up into an incompressible bulk in the upper cylinder when mixed with fuel and cause a hydraulic lock. This can perforate a piston crown or bend a conrod.

These Firexo extinguishers are, I feel, a real game changer in hand held extinguishers.

https://firexo.com/firexo-success-fighting-lithium-ion-fires/

I’ve got a small one of those just in case… not replacing anything I already had, but just in case, I have the option… cost me about £35 I think…

 

[Comodave]

I am more concerned about putting out the fire than I am about the mess. I can deal with the mess but if I can’t put out the fire then I am in real trouble.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Good point! On the other hand, not being able to see or breathe might limit your fire fighting ability. There's a reason dry powder extinguishers have a warning printed on them not to use in enclosed spaces.

 

[psneeld]

I am with the - have both kinds of extinguishers crowd.... and VERY careful with charging larger Li-ion batts anywhere.

No need to trash an electronics compartment or engine room for a small fire. At least until its past using Halon or other non-messy agent to quickly put it out.

If unsuccessful with a clean agent extinguisher, having a boatload of everything else under the sun is what you want for fiberglass boat fires.

 

[psneeld]

Good point! On the other hand, not being able to see or breathe might limit your fire fighting ability. There's a reason dry powder extinguishers have a warning printed on them not to use in enclosed spaces.

You can use them in enclosed spaces, you just shouldn't be in there too.

Some boats are fitted with fire fighting ports that you unscrew to stick the nozzel of the extinguisher through to discharge. The small port also doesn't allow as much oxygen into the space to feed the fire and might give you the chance to see what you are up against.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Yes, in this case the fire was in the main salon. And, I guess the real point is my friend had no other fire extinguishers on board except the builder supplied dry powder ones. While they met the minimum requirements they aren't really the best solution. Just the cheapest.

 

[psneeld]

Yes, in this case the fire was in the main salon. And, I guess the real point is my friend had no other fire extinguishers on board except the builder supplied dry powder ones. While they met the minimum requirements they aren't really the best solution. Just the cheapest.

Properly used, dry powder ABC rated extinguishers are very effective on A/B/C fires.

While messy the BC ones aren't quite as bad as the A rated ones that form a crust I believe much like PKP ones.

The reason they are generally more expensive is many have passed rigorous certifications.

Unless you friend's boat had a particularly large salon, the procedure would have been close any/all doors and windows if safe and shoot the extinguisher through a partially cracked door. Grabbing as many extinguishers on the way out as one can.

I do accept that the future will most likely bring new and better alternatives, so in the meanwhile I carry both certified for enforcement inspections and what I believe may be a better alternative in certain situations.

 

[Bud]

That sounds about right. The only CG approved fire exstinguishers are powder and your not suppose to use it inside your boat while your there and it won't put out a LP battery fire. Yet we are required to have them throughout the boat, engine room ect. Its obvious they are not worried about our safety.

Bud

 

[rslifkin]

USCG doesn't actually specify powder extinguishers. They specify that you need extinguishers with certain ratings. Dry powder extinguishers are just a common way to meet those requirements as an ABC dry chem, while messy, is about as universal as you can reasonably get in terms of covering the widest range of possible fire types and with some ability to suppress re-ignition.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Unless you friend's boat had a particularly large salon, the procedure would have been close any/all doors and windows if safe and shoot the extinguisher through a partially cracked door. Grabbing as m

Everything I just Googled says aim at the base of the fire and use a sweeping motion.
I'm not sure how effective a handheld dry powder extinguisher would be discharged into an entire room.

 

[Uisce Beo]

Dry powder extinguishers are just a common way to meet those requirements as an ABC dry chem, while messy, is about as universal as you can reasonably get in terms of covering the widest range of possible fire types and with some ability to suppress re-ignition.

Firexo extinguishers are designed to tackle all fire classes (A, B, C, D, Electrical, F, and Lithium-ion), with ratings like 13A/34B/C/D/Electrical/25F for the 2-liter model and 55A/183B/C/D/Electrical/75F for the 9-liter model.

 

[Bud]

USCG doesn't actually specify powder extinguishers. They specify that you need extinguishers with certain ratings. Dry powder extinguishers are just a common way to meet those requirements as an ABC dry chem, while messy, is about as universal as you can reasonably get in terms of covering the widest range of possible fire types and with some ability to suppress re-ignition.

If it was just messy that would be an ok tradeoff for putting out the fire, but if you can't breath or see, and you end up on the deck thats a different story. Hence the warning not to use inside enclosed space.

Bud

 

[psneeld]

Everything I just Googled says aim at the base of the fire and use a sweeping motion.
I'm not sure how effective a handheld dry powder extinguisher would be discharged into an entire room.

They are extremely effective..... I have quite a bit of firefighting training, have fought several boat fires and instructed live fire fighting courses.

I am discussing vessels up to around 60 feet or so. Vessels with very large, stand up engine rooms with dead spaces or large salons, there is some finesse but then again they are large enough to be used in those large spaces and directed where necessary in short bursts.

Once fire is spreading in a bilge area from fuel/oil.... the by far best agent at that point is foam and meet certain certifications.

USCG regs state that you have a required number and rating for each size vessel and they must be USCG approved, which generally means they must have a good enough bracket to hold them in a seaway.

This info is useful to all, but really only applies to USA boaters for regulatory matters.

 

[slowgoesit]

I called a local fire extinguisher company (Fort Myers, FL) that does fire extinguisher recertifications, and he said that they didn't inspect Firexo extinguishers, knew of no one who did here in Florida, and also said to the best of his knowledge, they didn't meet USCG requirements, or NFPA . . . . That alone would prevent me from purchasing them . . . . I still have ER Halon 1301, 1 hand held halon 1301, and CO2. Plus a few dry chem for outside fires, or salon if absolutely necessary.

 

[Bud]

I am going to purchase several C02 Amerex 322. Hopefully it is Coast gaurd approved. I would like to replace some of the dry chemical exstinguishers in the belly of the boat.
Bud