Diesel heater: want to tie it into my diesel tanks

[luna]

I know of no ductwork that is less than 60 mm in diameter.

With just a fan or blower moving the air you can have one of 2 things. A small diameter (60 mm) duct but it must be short, like the 3 feet that comes with your $90 investment or a min. 100 mm duct that can be much longer and have multiple short 60 mm min. branches.
Otherwise you can’t get rid of the heat via the ductwork so instead it goes out with the exhaust gases.

I run a hydronic system with 9 air coils, controlled by 5 T stats.
Some of the coils have no ductwork (Laz. & Flybridge) but those that do, it’s 4” galv. steel that is insulated.

Home Depot has 4 & 3” duct in galv. steel or aluminum while McMaster Carr has 304 SS stuff for something like 50 times the price.

Either would do as long as your temps are less than about 400 degrees F.

 

[Frosty]

Thanks @luna I was thinking somehow you knew of flexible but smooth "high heat" ducting. I guess this is why I hadn't seen it.

My heater uses 60mm ducting natively, with two output duct attachments, so in my case it's not too small. Each can be a maximum of 5 meters long, though mine are both less than 2 meters. One of the output ducts cannot ever be closed off; the other can be (so for example you could have a closeable register on the second one). It's on the second, "closeable" one that I was thinking of dividing it into a Y with two smaller ducts. Figure since that duct can be closeable then a little bit of extra resistance isn't going to screw things up. I guess 50mm PAC ducting might be the smallest that I can find a Y fitting for.

I like to sleep cold so didn't initially run a duct to the v-berth, but later realized it could be nice for reducing moisture/condensation. Hence thinking about changing that.

 

[Frosty]

PS: I see that I should have said "PAK" ducting, not PAC. Anyway, for a size smaller than 60mm it comes in either 55mm or 2" (50.8mm). So not quite 50mm. I thought I had seen 50mm somewhere but must have been mistaken.

Here is a link to the PAK ducting I referred to in case anyone is interested:

High Temperature Ducting

www.suremarineservice.com

 

[Bmarler]

I was thinking during the install, as we leave our cabin doors open at night, that hot air rises and would work its way to the saloon, so I didn’t think that I would need more then a 60mm.
Rainy or clouded over days it’s ok, just a hoodie or somethin and alls good, as you know from your GB, once the sun pops out, ya have to open windows even in winter.

You can get outlets that have adjustable louvres that let you control the flow. You can choke off the ones down below so the saloon gets more.

https://defender.com/en_us/webasto-high-temperature-threaded-duct-outlet-with-adjustable-louvers?utm_id=143783458262&utm_campaign=19735474067&utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid&utm_content=649599978904&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19735474067&gbraid=0AAAAAD_ojemLCttw6bXkogKG08-j4-7RW&gclid=CjwKCAiA2svIBhB-EiwARWDPjqEx1dEYJCaA0hMRzQ8NdlRD4Mr_Xqtn6RBkr1ty_qlcFJrkK6xx2RoCOYgQAvD_BwE#76=21&493=43571

 

[Portage_Bay]

Chinese 8 KW heater vs Espar 8 KW. I have one each. True enough the Chinese heater is better behaved. But personal observation says the Espar puts out far more heat. The Espar is in a 50 ft boat and does a good job. The Chinese heater is in an insulated 12 ft x 16 ft building and can't do the job many days.

I would never put another Espar in when it fails. Too much $$$ and smoke. When that time comes if money is a concern, and it usually is, I'll go with 2 or more Chinese heaters. If money is no concern, it always is, I'd go hydronic. Except for up front costs hydronic beats forced hair hands down.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I'm a fan of cheap Chinese heaters, I have three of them. Why buy parts when you can just pop in a new heater if the old one breaks down?

Mine works good, no smoke and 6 ppm CO out the exhaust.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

The CE mark on Chinese products is a spoof on the Euro mark, it means nothing as one would expect.

Not necessarily. The CE mark has been used on Chinese products to mimic the Euro mark. The article you cited to shows one way on how to tell the difference. Mine is the Euro mark. In addition, mine has the UKCA Declaration of Conformity to meet additional British requirements and a business address where one can get the DoC and read the various international safety requirements the item meets. The mark only meens nothing to those who don't know what it means.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I agree. The Euro mark does mean something. The "China Export" mark means nothing.

 

[Jeff F]

I agree. The Euro mark does mean something. The "China Export" mark means nothing.

And they require about the same effort to print off and attach to the product.

The Euro mark if authentic has meaning.

What's the manufacturer and model number again? Who is the EU distributor for the same units? It shouldn't be hard to check.

 

[SteveK]

I googled
Is Vevor 8KW diesel heater approved for use in Canada
Is Vevor 8KW diesel heater approved for use in USA
Is Vevor 8KW diesel heater approved for use in Europe

All have similar using words saying not specifically CE or CSA approved. These products must meet the safety standards of the country. Since none are specifically or explicitly and they are allowed to be sold suggest that they meet the guidelines.

The Vevor 8KW diesel heater does not appear to be explicitly approved or certified for use in Canada by a recognized Canadian certification body such as the CSA Group (Canadian Standards Association) or ULC (Underwriters Laboratories of Canada). Products sold in Canada typically require such certification marks to demonstrate compliance with Canadian national safety and electrical codes.

Must be the ONLY product imported and sold that does not have the stamp of approval. Since my dissection of the Espar, the Webasto and the Vevor I have to say I do not see any concerns with the construction and they appear to be built from the same mold.

• Proper Use is Crucial: The primary safety hazard, as highlighted by a product recall in the UK, stems from improper installation and inadequate ventilation, which can lead to dangerous carbon monoxide buildup. The manufacturer and product manuals stress that the exhaust must always be vented to the outside to prevent CO from entering the living space.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I have also looked for some improved ducting. The tinfoil-and-paper ductwork like PAK kind of sort of works. Easily crushed when trying to flex it. Expensive ($10 a foot for toilet paper tube and tinsel!!) There has to be something better when the bar is set that low. But I have yet to find it. I tried using big pipe insulation like this, but found that it can't take the heat. Even when spaced away from the heater with a section of PAK ducting, the heat was still too much for the foam. Same with PVC (white) piping. It only has a 140F rating (60C), but I was hopeful. Nope. CPVC has a 200F rating, but I don't think that will do it, either. And neither are actually insulated (nor is PAK). Using aluminum dryer duct and then wrap-around insulation would work, except for the near impossibility of wrapping the duct after installation, especially if one wants a neat and tidy install and is passing through bulkheads.

Still looking.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Found my manual for my Eberspacher/Espar Airtronic heater. It came on a CD which I think I tossed, but the print is still around. It says the heater can be installed by T'ing into the fuel line or using a dip tube. Pictures shows both. So the Airtronic has the same safety features as the Chinese heaters, or at least my heater.

For the Mercedes Sprinter van, there is even a plug-and-play T fitting for the fuel line that is advertised by Airtronic dealers. Popular because there is no reason to drill into the fuel tank. I don't know where the "don't T" idea came from, but it wasn't from Eberspacher/Espar. I never had any info on the Webasto heater that I removed. Maybe you can't T with a Webasto?? Nope. My prior owner did successfully for 3 decades. He sure was lucky.

Like GrandWood, I don't have enough room to drill a hole in the top of a fuel tank (and wouldn't anyway). I would have to cut a hole in the cabin sole large enough to then drill a hole in the tank, install the dip tube, attach the fuel line, attempt to seal it up, and then fix the big hole in the cabin sole. Good thing there is no need for that.

 

[SteveK]

Guess what
Webasto Air Top 5000 ST diesel heaters do not carry a specific CSA approval (Canadian Standards Association) mark. They are typically certified to European standards (such as EU Directive 70/156/EEC and ADR/RID regulations) which are recognized in many parts of the world.

Seems the Webasto is equal to the Vevor for certification.

 

[Jeff F]

Seems the Webasto is equal to the Vevor for certification.

In that neither are certified?

If you guys want to put a gravity fed small diesel heater at the bottom of your entire fuel system and think it's completely OK then have at it. I've registered my concerns and objections. Nobody has disputed anything I've said, except to continuously insist that their way is better. I'll stop, then hopefully everyone will be happy.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

I couldn't help myself. I had to chase down the interweb rumor that those shifty Chinese were misusing the CE marking and claiming it meant "Chinese Export." Here is an article by a European CE marking agent about having heard the joke long ago from other marking agents. I searched the web and was unable to find any examples of the CE mark actually being misused as "Chinese Export," but it might have been at some point. Still, nothing like the interweb rumor.

Chinese Export...?

The Chinese Export marking is one of the toughest urban legends. Even members of the European Parliament believed it. Let's clarify once and for all.

cemarking.net

I would guess that the Chinese government would quickly put an end to such shenanigans (and likely in a heavy-handed way). There is enough xenophobia about Chinese products without an exporter getting cute with misleading CE markings.

 

[SteveK]

In that neither are certified?

If you guys want to put a gravity fed small diesel heater at the bottom of your entire fuel system and think it's completely OK then have at it. I've registered my concerns and objections. Nobody has disputed anything I've said, except to continuously insist that their way is better. I'll stop, then hopefully everyone will be happy.

Jeff, You quoted me and added in the word "only". As I did not use that word I ask that you edit it out. I said
Seems the Webasto is equal to the Vevor for certification.

 

[Jeff F]

There is enough xenophobia about Chinese products without an exporter getting cute with misleading CE markings.

Let's review some realities:
A) US importers don't require any markings or certifications
B) Chinese manufacturers and exporters are not required to attach markings or certifications for export to the US
C) the manufacturer does not have any proprietary branding rights or interests. Once it's out the door distributors, importers and retailers are free to attach their own branding.

What's keeping one of those players from attaching verification stickers as part of their branding excercise? Why would anyone in China care? That's been their model for a generation.

US isn't going to crack down on fake EU certificates and it's probably not a prime target for EU enforcement if it's just in the US.

Where's the xenophobia? We all agree that the result is cheap, good running, and in many ways superior to the originals. I don't care about certifications or specs or manufacturer's guidance. If I had to bet I'd say it's more likely Americans than Chinese who would be involved in any questionable certification claims.

But who cares, really? Just don't bet the boat on it.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Maybe it's a different phobia?

 

[GrandWood]

In that neither are certified?

If you guys want to put a gravity fed small diesel heater at the bottom of your entire fuel system and think it's completely OK then have at it. I've registered my concerns and objections. Nobody has disputed anything I've said, except to continuously insist that their way is better. I'll stop, then hopefully everyone will be happy.

Please don’t stop sir, your input is very valuable to me, thank you very much for taking time to post on my threads, much appreciated
Joe

 

[GrandWood]

One last question….
Once I’m tied into fuel line, and I am pumping into day tank, will it possibly suck fuel away from the engine creating air in the line or some type of vacuum

 

[SteveK]

One last question….
Once I’m tied into fuel line, and I am pumping into day tank, will it possibly suck fuel away from the engine creating air in the line or some type of vacuum

IMO, it could starve fuel to engine as two pumps compete, but no air as where would it come from.

 

[GrandWood]

IMO, it could starve fuel to engine as two pumps compete, but no air as where would it come from.

Steve I have it set up where I have a valve right off the tee to turn off the fuel to the aux pump when not in use. I will only fill the day tank for the heater when engine is not running.

 

[SteveK]

Steve I have it set up where I have a valve right off the tee to turn off the fuel to the aux pump when not in use. I will only fill the day tank for the heater when engine is not running.

post 110 was misunderstood. IMO you will not have a problem.
I would have and have done just 'Teed in" to the heater pump with an added inline filter and not have the bother of this relay system.

 

[Ken E.]

I have similar situation to the OP. I tee'd the port engine fuel line after the spin-on filters and connected to a 12v transfer pump which pumps into a dedicated 12 gallon lazarette tank for the Espar heater. Ball valves at the tee allow for normal engine operation or fuel transfer. Works fine for my application. I only need to transfer fuel every couple weeks when running the boat.

 

[GrandWood]

I have similar situation to the OP. I tee'd the port engine fuel line after the spin-on filters and connected to a 12v transfer pump which pumps into a dedicated 12 gallon lazarette tank for the Espar heater. Ball valves at the tee allow for normal engine operation or fuel transfer. Works fine for my application. I only need to transfer fuel every couple weeks when running the boat.

Some type of set up here, just finished install, did put extra fuel filter inline, need a bit more wire and it will be done. I’m about one week to fill day tanks for heater.

 

[Frosty]

@GrandWood: Since this is a cozy heater thread it seems like the right time to mention this: I just love your avatar pic! The glow of a GB teak saloon is so inviting against the contrast of the cool night sky.

 

[GrandWood]

@GrandWood: Since this is a cozy heater thread it seems like the right time to mention this: I just love your avatar pic! The glow of a GB teak saloon is so inviting against the contrast of the cool night sky.

Thank you Frosty, that’s my sons camera work

 

[jgwinks]

I just bought a Chinese heater on eBay. Considering the layout of the boat and where I want the duct outlets, the most logical place to mount it happens to be right next to the installed diesel generator. So of course I'll tap it into the extra "out" port on the generator's Racor. That won't effect the main engines and we hardly ever run the gen anyway.
The prices sure have changed on these things, I put one in my last boat about ten years ago, it was around $200. This new one was only $68 and appears to be the same model. The special exhaust through hull was $16, the last one was over $50.

 

[GrandWood]

I just bought a Chinese heater on eBay. Considering the layout of the boat and where I want the duct outlets, the most logical place to mount it happens to be right next to the installed diesel generator. So of course I'll tap it into the extra "out" port on the generator's Racor. That won't effect the main engines and we hardly ever run the gen anyway.
The prices sure have changed on these things, I put one in my last boat about ten years ago, it was around $200. This new one was only $68 and appears to be the same model. The special exhaust through hull was $16, the last one was over $50.

I just picked up a vevor for like 86.00, going to dedicate it to my saloon only. And thinking more on it, I might just get one for a spare, my other is a wabasto, and the vevor will bolt right in to where it is in case of failure this winter

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah Baby! Don't buy spare parts, just get another heater.

Only twice as much as a glow plug, screen and gasket set.